Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Competent man (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Robert A. Heinlein. Daniel (talk) 02:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Competent man

AfDs for this article:

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Expended dictdef with no source to indicate it is in use. Fails the

general notability policy. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. UtherSRG (talk) 12:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 13:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sources brought up by prior AfDs are interesting, but nothing that you can really expand an article over. I support a merge to Robert A. Heinlein. Ca ^{talk to me!} 13:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Robert A. Heinlein. — The Anome (talk) 13:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:47, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to
Jack of all trades, master of none to be moved to Jack of all trades, and the disambiguation page to be moved to the disambiguated title. BD2412 T 19:42, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Strong keep. Meets
WP:NOPAGE
, I still think keep is the best option. Here are some demonstrative sources from a non-exhaustive search in Google Books:
Ellen Weil and Gary K. Wolfe's Harlan Ellison: The Edge of Forever [1] has a discussion of the concept in relation to Heinlein and Ellison
No writer had done more to promote science fiction's myth of the competent man than Robert A. Heinlein, an author who is almost never cited among Ellison's precursors or influences. Heinlein's hard-edged stories all point in the direction of "The Cold Equations" by portraying a mechanistic universe in which the engineer, by virtue of training and skill, is the natural master. "Very early in life when I read Robert Heinlein I got the thread that runs through his stories- the notion of the competent man," Ellison once told an interviewer. "I've always held that as my ideal. I've tried to be a very competent man" (Platt 166). But Ellison is missing the point. Heinlein's imaginary worlds, like those of Isaac Asimov and other writers of science fiction's "golden age" of the 1940s, seem deliberately constructed to reward the kinds of competence that science fiction readers a thought they already possessed--technical facility, arcane knowledge, an understanding of scientific principles, above all problem-solving skill-and that too often go unrewarded in the messy worlds of schools, jobs, and social relationships. Classic science fiction often portrays a kind of techno-geek utopia, and Ellison was never able to fully buy into this world. From the very beginning, his fiction brought to the surface the underlying fears and anxieties of the readers' real world- loneliness, alienation, insecuri-ty--and suggested that all the technological fixes of science fiction couldn't eliminate them.

Discussion relating to James E. Gunn in Michael R. Page's Saving the World Through Science Fiction: James Gunn, Writer, Teacher and Scholar[2]
With Stewart, Gunn created a good example of the "competent man," the efficient and resourceful Heinlein/Campbell hero, capable of achieving the goals of a system outside of the direct influence of the bureaucratic realities of the system itself. This is, in essence, the nature of the frontier theme-the Admiral and his men on the outpost station in "Communi-cations" are also good examples. In later work, Gunn will continue to explore the nature of the competent man, but often placed within the structural inertias of bureaucratic systems, illustrating that the Heinlein/ Campbell hero has limitations. In the end, and not unexpectedly, Stewart succeeds in convincing the Rigelians to join the Alliance, through rational persuasive discourse. Like most of the stories Campbell published in this vein, it is more an argument than a heroic action adventure.

A discussion relating to author Piers Anthony's work from Willaim Glass, via Michael R. Collings' Piers Anthony [3]
At the same time, Castle Roogna is also constantly (if entertainingly) didactic, in something like Heinlein's SF juveniles of the 1950's. Dor is clearly the naive Heinlein youth, his quest their usual one for competence and maturi-ty-even if it is complicated by tritons, dragons, ogres, zombies, tangle trees, forfons, and the like; and even if the older, Heinlein competent man character is a very intelli-gent, highly magnified spider. [9]

A discussion relating to cultural criticism of real world "AI" in Richard Heimann's Doing AI [4]
Consider that science fiction writer Robert Heinlein's "competent man" is sometimes seen as the archetype for insiders.12 Heinlein notes that, "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.»13 Heinlein adds, "Specialization is for insects."
The fact that most of us can't do half of these things Heinlein considers human competence is perhaps why inspiration for artificial intelligence often comes from science fiction. This exaggerated anthropomorphic viewpoint, however, is a high standard for almost all applied problem solving. After all, businesses need to solve problems even if those solutions are as specialized as an insect's.

More specific to Heinlein in Thomas D. Clareson and Joe Sanders' The Heritage of Heinlein: A Critical Reading of the Fiction [5]
Jack Williamson acknowledges that the characters in The Rolling Stones, which he calls "a delightful romp through space ... a dream of personal freedom," are all variations "on the brilliantly competent man" ("Youth" 22, 23), a term for Heinlein's protagonists first used by Alexei Panshin (HD 12). But in saying this Williamson traps himself in a sense, for he is hard pressed to find individuals who fulfill Heinlein's essential criterion that a character must change/grow.

Some more specific to Heinlein in Farah Mendlesohn's The Pleasant Profession of Robert A. Heinlein[6]
Heinlein's understanding of what a man should be and do is scattered throughout his work, and at various times in this book I have tackled aspects of it. What emerges is that the concept of the 'Heinlein hero' or the 'competent man' that has come to be the accepted face of Heinlein's masculinity is actually rather problematic; perhaps only Lazarus Long fits this model of the masculine man.

There is a tendency to dismiss Heinlein's literary skills; to dismiss Heinlein's characters as examples of the 'competent man'; to assume that dogmatic characters are ipso facto the authorial voice...

The doofus male may be smart in his own right, but he has to be courted with a metaphorical club and/or dragged in his destined direction by a metaphorical tug of the hair. The doofus male - interestingly - has never taken his rightful place alongside Heinlein's competent man as a key Heinlein character. Both club and tug are usually operated by the highly competent Heinlein female.

—siro χ o 05:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Robert A. Heinlein, as it seems this is largely a term that refers to his works. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:56, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge/Redirect as this is almost exclusively related to his works. Shooterwalker (talk) 03:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per siroχo's analysis of the sources. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 03:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 03:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge subject to later re-creation with the added sources. Right now, there's only four sources, two from one author. That's not significant coverage. It's also really part of a continuum with the Mary Sue trope. Bearian (talk) 01:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.