Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Black Kite (talk) 09:50, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia

Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The article list several events in a period of 80 years and more. I wanted to improve it, but it is not possible. First it presents the incidents having happened during the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan in 1918-20s, which resulted in the eviction of population from both sides. Then the decision taken by the Soviet authorities in 1947 to resettle Azerbaijanis, signed by the Azeri side by Bagirov during the

Population transfers in the Soviet Union. Then the incidents of late 1980s and beginning of 1990s between Armenia and Azerbaijan. That's mostly what the article is all about. Several unrelated events mostly during the clash between Armenia and Azerbaijan. JediXmaster (talk
) 04:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Note also that there is another article of the same kind which includes the said deportations titled:
Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia Is it accepted in Wikipedia to have two articles about basically the same subject? JediXmaster (talk) 20:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

Keep and/or Rename to "Deportations of Azerbaijanis from Armenia". The article clearly shows that Armenia lost much of its Azeri population due to forceful and often state-sanctioned relocations, which many sources (cited in the article) refer to as deportations, and that this was a continuous process throughout the twentieth century. While many of those cases took place as a result of armed conflicts between Armenia and Azerbaijan (which does not undermine the fact of a deportation), some happened in the time of peace, e.g. in 1948–1950. The article is well-sourced, and I am truly puzzled as to how this huge body of useful, neutral and relevant information can be nominated for deletion. Parishan (talk) 06:03, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really puzzled? This is equivalent to creating Deportations of Armenians from Azerbaijan and including 1905-07 clash, the events in the 1918-20s, which includes Baku massacre, Shushi, Nakhichevan etc., and the more recent events from the 80s and 90s. Each event is unrelated and can have its own article, one article including them is the creators synthesis and choice on what to include or not, and that's unencyclopedic. JediXmaster (talk) 06:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If that is the case, why are you requesting the article's deletion, when you could just request a
split
? To have such a huge and well sourced article deleted, you really need to bring up some substantial arguments, and "I wanted to rewrite it, but I couldn't" is simply not enough. All this documented information cannot just "perish" in a simple deletion. Let us see what your argumentation is based on:
  1. You accuse the article of covering consequences of armed conflicts, but that does not "undo" the fact of the deportations. Furthermore, the deportations clearly took place at non-war times as well, such as 1948–1950.
  2. You claim that the 1948 decree was signed by Baghirov, of which I saw no proof in the article. What I did see, though, is neutral sources such as
    Grigory Arutyunov
    .
  3. You stated that the article covers isolated incidents, however all of these cases underlyingly had the same motivations, as noted by De Waal who lists them together in Chapter 5 of
    Suny
    who writes: "A second reason for Armenian unity and coherence was the fact that progressively through the seventy years of Soviet power, the republic grew more Armenian in population until it became the most ethnically homogeneous republic in the USSR. On several occasions local Muslims were removed from its territory and Armenians from neighboring republics settled in Armenia."
I honestly do not see anything "unencyclopedic" about this article. Parishan (talk) 06:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was not aware that the article was suggested for deletion prior. I agree with spliting it, but the original has then to be removed for that. Regarding the motivations being similair for the different events, I disagree, and one or two book is not sufficient to all make them related. Concerning Bagirov, he sent a letter on Dec, 10, 1947 in which he gave consent. See Jamil Hasanli book Stalin and the Turkish Crisis of the Cold War, 1945-1953, pg. 271. The event was not as simple as discribed, besides the Armenians implemented to replace them left in the 50s. I just wonder though, would you agree to the creation of an equivalent article on Armenians from Azerbaijan? JediXmaster (talk) 06:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would, if that were really the case, which it is not. There were no systematic deportations of Armenians from Azerbaijan, except in the early 1990s, and there is already an article on that. It was Yerevan that went from being 49% Azeri in 1897 to 0.7% Azeri in 1959, as opposed to Baku where the Armenian population was constantly on the rise, just like in all of Azerbaijan. In any event, cases of deportations of Azeris are not mentioned in "one or two books", and if you really believe so, you should have done better research before nominating this article. For your information, the very book you are quoting (I mean Jamil Hasanli) also describes it as a deportation in the paragraph you are referring to, regardless of who signed for it. Again, I do not see why this article should be deleted: even a split does not presuppose that. Parishan (talk) 07:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
From what I see, the article was never nominated for deletion. JediXmaster (talk) 07:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, I confused it with a different article; which, however, does not spare the nomination from being well substantiated. Parishan (talk) 07:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If that was really the case? So, Nakhichevan Armenians did not have the same fate, neither those in Shushi, or Baku in 1918-20? Besides, you are comparing apples with oranges, Armenia integrity was threatned from the refugees it recieved from the Ottoman Empire, you can't compare. JediXmaster (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There was never a documented case of deportation of Armenians from any of those places. Parishan (talk) 07:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The content is encyclopaedic, and supported by multiple third party sources. The events described in the article are linked by third party sources, in particular Thomas de Waal [1]:

Yet by the twentieth century the Azerbaijani people, who had lived in Eastern Armenia for centuries, had become its silent guests, marginalized and discriminated against. The Armenians asserted their right to their homeland at the expense of these people. In 1918 – 1920, tens of thousands Azerbaijanis were expelled from Zangezur. In 1940s, tens of thousands more were deported to Azerbaijan to make way for incoming Armenian immigrants from Diaspora. The last cleansing, in 1988 – 1989, got rid of the rest.



Thomas de Waal. Black garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through peace and war. NYU Press, 2003.

ISBN 0814719457
, 9780814719459. p.80.

Grandmaster 07:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and De Waal says many other things, point is that Armenians from Nakhichevan, Baku, Shushi etc. in the 1918-20s had the same fate, as well as those in 88-90s. It's equivalent to splitting the Armenian-Tatar massacre of 1905-07 to only include Tatars without context. Besides 1947-51, the other cases involved both sides. JediXmaster (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Armenians were not systematically deported. There's a difference. Grandmaster 07:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then what are the examples I have provided? JediXmaster (talk) 07:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think Parishan already responded to that. Massacres are not the same as deportations. There's no evidence of any forcible deportation of Armenians from Azerbaijan before late 1980s. Grandmaster 20:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One example. Nakhichevan: They point instead to the example of Sharur-Nakhichevan, which has been denuded of its Armenian population,... The Legacy of History in Russia and the New States of Eurasia by S. Frederick Starr, p. 247 Tell me what was different between what happened in Nakhichevan and elsewhere? Besides, why are we debating when there is already already an article covering all those events at
Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JediXmaster (talk • contribs) 20:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Because there are really no neutral sources claiming anything of that sort. Even in the one you are referring to, it is not the author's opinion; he is quoting Karabakh Armenians. It is strange that you find that dubious quote enough to conclude that there have been deportations of Armenians from Azerbaijan, while ignoring many more neutral sources which openly refer to Azeri relocations from Armenia as deportations, calling them "one or two books". Anyway, why are we even discussing Nakhchivan here? It is completely irrelevant.
As for your reference to
Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia, the latter article is not identical to this one; the anti-Azerbaijani sentiment is a sociopolitical occurrence and has been common regardless of Azeri presence in Armenia. More so, while deportations targeted the Azeri population of Armenia specifically, the article on the sentiment refers to the attitudes of Armenians towards anything associated with Azeris, including the Republic of Azerbaijan. Parishan (talk) 21:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
No, he is not merely quoting them, what happened in Nakhichevan is recorded, including when it has hapenned, see Maintenance of Peace in Armenia:Hearings Before a Subcommittee of the Committee on Foreign Relations. The Azerbaijani side evicted the British along with the American relief workers to then massacre and push away the Armenian population. And I am not ignoring anything at all, what I wrote about one or two books, was that only that much could be found dumping all evictions together, and even then, De Waal refers to Zangezur only for the given period, which was not different than what happened in Nakhichevan. Besides, like stated what happened in 1947 was part of a larger policy spamming several decades in the Soviet Union, it also includes the eviction of Kurds from Nakhichevan in 1937, even Armenian eviction in 1951.
On
Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia, whatever you say, the other article covers the same thing only worded differently, social or not, it is basically identical in content, something you could hardly deny. JediXmaster (talk) 22:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
JediXmaster, I am sorry, but I am not going to argue with you on the fact that when an author writes "Karabakh Armenians point to..." he or she really quotes someone, as opposed to expressing his or her own opinion.
The fact of the matter is that cases of authority-sanctioned expulsions of Azeris from Armenia in a systematic way throughout the twentieth century are quite a well-described historical fact, which Armenian experiences in Azerbaijan (at least until the early 1990s) can hardly be compared to (speaking of which, squeezed-out sources like Maintenance of Peace in Armenia violate
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
or does not exist, for that matter. Azeri deportations were not typical Stalinist population transfers; the latter were implemented against groups that were seen as anti-Soviet or counter-revolutionary, whereas the Azeri deportation was initially disguised as "voluntary resettlement". It was a measure taken to reach a clear goal set out by the Armenian authorities and mentioned in a number of neutral sources, that is the ethnic homogenisation of Armenia. There were no such objectives in Azerbaijan at any point in history.
Again, only because the anti-Azerbaijani sentiment article repeats some of the information here, it does not mean it should be deleted. Deportations were undoubtedly triggered by that sentiment, but they were by far not its only manifestation. Parishan (talk) 23:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Parishan, you can argue or not, that quote is not stating according to or the allegations of, it points, the author stat they point. But if you really want more sources, here we go: The Azeris soon looked to Turkish support to oust the Armenians from Nakhichevan, while the Armenians were eager to eject the Azeris from Zanzegur. Johnson, Robert (2007), Oil, Islam and Conflict: Central Asia Since 1945, Reaktion Books pg. 168
Regarding the deportation of 1947-51 being not typical, it's not different than the Kurdish deportation. Also anti-Azerbaijani sentiment is not repeating some, it contains all, by its content, what is included in this article, all. JediXmaster (talk) 02:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Johnson quote does not clarify whether the author meant Armenian troops or ethnic Armenians; I am inclined to believe it is the former since Nakhchivan still had substantial Armenian population at the time of Sovietisation. The Kurdish deportation of the 1930s was one-time and affected all of the Caucasus (Kurds were deported from Azerbaijan in 1937–1938 and from Georgia in 1944, as well) as a "politically untrustworthy element" which was a typical Soviet policy, whereas the Azeris were constantly removed from Armenia for the purpose of ethnically homogenizing (i.e. Armenianising) the country and at the insistence of the Armenian authorities. I hope the difference is clear. Parishan (talk) 04:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, the difference is not clear to me.
Korenizatsiya and ethnic homogenization was a pan-Soviet nationalities policy. De Waal discusses Azerification and Azerbaijani settlement programs in Nagorno-Karabakh in his Black Garden. Jackal 05:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Korenizatsiya had absolutely nothing to do with ethnic homogenization or deportations; it was simply a measure to increase native representation in the local governments. Azerbaijani settlement in Nagorno-Karabakh never involved any population transfers either, even according to De Waal; it was voluntary and occurring on an individual basis. In any case, drawing loads of hardly relevant examples ranging from Nakhchivan to korenizatsiya is a waste of time. I would like to remind that
comparisons are not the best way to argue why you think an article should be deleted. Parishan (talk) 05:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
You're as guilty for entairtaining the non-relevant examples. If you want right to the point answer, please adequately explain to me on the why for maintaining an article which content is a duplicate of another article. And please this time without the sociological excuse, because this does not change the truth of their duplicate nature. Thank you. JediXmaster (talk) 06:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A quick look at the article
Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia shows that along with the deportations it addresses a wide range of other issues which are not thoroughly discussed in the article in question, e.g. the destruction of Azeri cultural heritage, toponymy reforms and encouragement of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment after the war both towards ethnic Azeris and the Republic of Azerbaijan. None of this is relevant to the deportation issue, which deserves a separate slot and a more detailed description. Parishan (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
All what I had ro write, I did. I'll let the voters vote. JediXmaster (talk) 07:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Korenizatsiya reinforced national identity in the Soviet republics (see Martin, Birgerson) and I would posit that it did have something to do with homogenization and deportations. I will have to get back to you on de Waal–I know I have a copy of that book somewhere. Also, I still believe that the article needs to be put in the context of the demographic exchange between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Jackal 06:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Identity and deportations have nothing in common in this case; please do not engage in
WP:OR. "Demographic exchange" does not reflect the situation accurately: there is a fine difference between the constant increase in the Armenian population of Azerbaijan vs. the fluctuation of the Azeri population in Armenia caused by waves of state-sanctioned deportations. If there even was a gradual outflow of Armenians from areas such as Nakhchivan, there is no evidence to call that a deportation or claim that the state was somehow involved. Parishan (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Since any passage from any source seems to be fair game in this article (except when it contradicts the narrative it's trying to build), here's one from Bruce Grant's "Cosmpolitan Baku" (which, unlike Zubok's book, for example, specifically focuses on the region): "Between 1989 and 1999, some 175,000 registered Armenians left the city [Baku]; in return, some 225,000 Azeris coming to Baku from Armenia and the war-torn territories of Karabagh registered in their place (Yunusov 2009:65–66), demographic substitutions that transformed the city’s social networks overnight."
Also, "identity and deportations have nothing in common in this case?" Really? How's that again? Jackal 07:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's the issue, the title of the article will prevent it from providing contexts, like the events in 1989-90s. I rest my case. JediXmaster (talk) 07:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jackal, a quick generalizing comment by a random author cannot shed enough light on the situation, especially when it claims that 225,000 Azeris arrived in Baku overnight, which they certainly did not (it was a lengthier process and the destinations were various). Yury Pompeev (Кровавый омут Карабаха, p. 87), for example, mentions an instance of the Azeri deportation from Spitak under a military convoy.
"Really? How's that again?" Because korenizatsiya did not engage masses, to begin with; it was merely an administrative measure to appoint natives to key government positions in their respective republics. Parishan (talk) 08:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:34, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and merge There's some kernel of truth to the information written in this article, but not enough to retain it under its current name. There were no systematic deportations of Tatars/Azeris during the disturbances of 1905-06, nor during the independence period of 1919-20. The removal of Azeris during the post-war years is perhaps the only event that closely falls within the definition of expulsion, but I'd still want to see better sources. What happened in the twilight years of the USSR is tragic, but here, too, the use of the word deportation is inappropriate. There were no state-sanctioned moves to depopulate Armenia of its Azerbaijani population and if anything the only deportations that did take place were in the regions of Shahumyan and Getashen, and that was directed against Armenians and carried out by the Soviet Army and Azerbaijani OMON. Let's not forget that tens of thousands of Armenians left Azerbaijan, willingly or unwillingly, because of violence and numerous pogroms. This article is nothing but a mishmash of events separated from one another by much as several decades and brought together under a single, misleading heading. It is perhaps on par with the drivel about Armenians having committed "genocides" (in the plural) against Azeris for the past 200 years. Whatever can be salvaged can just go to the Azerbaijanis in Armenia page.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding that the claim of homogenization is contradicted when Yezidis and Muslim Kurds found a relative haven in Soviet Armenia, which proved to be a focal point for the Soviet Kurdish community. While The Azerbaijani leadership... obstructed any rehabilitation: no Kurdish schools in any sense were ever reopened, no books printed. Even the very existence of Kurds in Azerbaijan was often deemed unmentionable. Azerbaijani scholars generally did not publish on the Kurds of their republic,... [HUMAN RIGHTS SITUATION OF THE YEZIDI MINORITY IN THE TRANSCAUCAUSUS (ARMENIA, GEORGIA, AZERBAIJAN)] JediXmaster (talk) 20:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
De Waal links the events in 1918-1920, 1940 and late 1980s as a chain of systematic efforts on homogenising the ethnic composition of the population of the Republic of Armenia. That is clearly not Azerbaijani propaganda, and not original research. Grandmaster 20:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So a page can be built on the basis of the opinion of a journalist (see my comment about one or two books)? Besides, he mentions only Zangezur for the events of 1918-1920, which statistics of Azeri fell from one census to the next. How was that different than what happened in Nakhichevan, where the Armenian population melted from 53,000 to 11,276 from one census to the next? The homogenising the ethnic composition claimed by De Waal is contradicted by a report commissioned by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees on the situation of Yezidis and other Kurds, which claims that Armenia was haven to the Kurds while in Azerbaijan they were discriminated and assimilated. JediXmaster (talk) 21:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You can find info about forcible cleanisng and massacre of Azeris in Zangezur in other sources too. Bloxham, for instance: [2]


On the Armenian side, many of the key perpetrators were the former leaders of the volunteer battalions and Turkish-Armenian 'self-defense' operations. From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur. Hovannisian describes his actions as the beginning of the process of 'transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land'. Alexandr Khatisian, one-time Prime minister of Armenia, used similar language, averring that 'it was not the will of the diplomats which was to bring about homogeneous populations in this or that region, but through the course of elemental behaviour'. Andranik was stopped from expanding this policy into Karabakh by the local British commander, who had his own distinct political agenda.



Andranik brought with him 30,000 Armenian refugees, mostly from eastern Anatolia, particularly Mush and Bitlis, where, under the protection of fedayee forces lead by Ruben Ter Minassian, they had managed to resist the Turkish assault and escape to the Caucasus. Some refugees stayed in Zangezur, but Ter Minassian, a former member of the Armenian national council, ordered the transfer of many of them to the Erivan and Daralgiaz regions, where they replaced evicted Muslims in a move to ethnically homogenize key areas of the Armenian state. One of the fedayees accurately described this as ethnic cleansing, and the parallels to the settlement of muhajirs at Armenian expense in the late Ottoman empire are obvious.

And I don't see how Kurds are relevant here. They were deported by Stalin from all 3 South Caucasus republics. The decision was clearly made in Moscow, and not locally. How could Armenia be a haven for Kurds, when all of them were exiled to Kazakhstan in 1940s? And those who returned were ethnically cleansed from the “haven” in Armenia in 1980s and found refuge in Azerbaijan, where they supposedly are "discriminated". This defies logic. Grandmaster 23:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Grandmaster, why are you quoting this, since I am not claiming it did not happen. What I wrote is that what happened was that both killed eachothers and evicted eachothers, that's supported by the author you have cited, see the end of his intro.

On the various Tukish advances into the Caucasus, the power equation was decidedly in Azerbaijan's favour, and Armenians suffered accordingly, but there is no doubt that extensive atrocities were committed on all sides, and according to the same rationales.

Then he proceed with what you have quoted. Also,volunteer battalions and Turkish-Armenian 'self-defense' operations, the Armenian government was not implicated, from Taner Akcam book: The hero of the Turkish Armenians was persona non grata and would be disarmed if he entered the bounds of the Republic. That both were implicated is also supported by Turkish sources of the time, one that Taner Akcam cite in the section devoted to the Caucasus, from Yusuf Kemal Tengirsenk, the foreign minister of the Ankara government:

...The two sides are murdering one another. This, unfortunitly, is a common practice in both countries.

Also, Armenian Army corps commander Nazarbekoff claimed that Antranik was beyond the reach of the Armenian government. Fact is that unless we're refering to 1947-51, and that can have it's article, this article is the authors synthesis by excluding the other sides tragedy; but for the rest, what happened, happened to both sides, but this article singles one group and use a controversial claim of deportation. From De Waal, p. 127

In Nakhichevan, the westernmost, Azerbaijan consolidated control that year, with Turkish support, driving out thousands of Armenians.

Regarding the Kurds, there are more than 40,000 Yezidi Kurds in Armenia, and yes Armenia was a safe haven for them, that's what the report is claiming, did you take the time to read it?

In sum both Yezidis and Muslim Kurds found a relative haven in Soviet Armenia, which proved to be a focal point for the Soviet Kurdish community. For Muslim Kurds, however, this haven came to an abrupt end with the onset of the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict and displacement to Azerbaijan.

They had schools, publications, a theatre etc., none of those in Azerbaijan. The claim of homogenization does not stick when considering how the Kurds were treated. Also, many of the Kurds left for Russia and not Azerbaijan, and they had no choice, because besides Armenia there is no haven for them to choose from. JediXmaster (talk) 23:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You have no source to support the claim that Armenians were systematically cleansed from Azerbaijan. It is not true anyway, because until the start of the conflict in 1988 there were large Armenian communities all over Azerbaijan. The situation with Azeris in Armenia was quite different. These people were systematically driven out of the country under various pretexts at various times throughout the 20th century. It is not just my opinion, this is what de Waal writes, and he is an acknowledged expert on the region. As for the Kurds, I don't see what they have to do with displacement of Azeris. The only thing that connects them to Azeris is that Muslim Kurds shared the same fate with Azeris, and vast majority of them found refuge in Azerbaijan, where they are "discriminated". It makes no sense to run from a safe haven to a place where one would be discriminated, does it? That is clearly illogical. And Kurds were deported from Armenia not once, but twice, first by orders of Stalin, and second time by the Armenian nationalist forces. So situation with Kurdish minority in Armenia was far from idyllic, they were under the constant threat of deportation, by Soviet or Armenian authorities. Grandmaster 09:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what you are arguing about, even De Waal claims Armenians were driven out from Nakhichevan. The only event which was different was the resettlement of 1948-51. Had there been no 1948-51, per capita excluding NK, there would have been as much Azeri in Armenia as there were Armenians in Azerbaijan. As for the Kurds, you have no case to stand on, call it illogical, it is sourced, you can't dismiss the report and the armada of sources which can be provided. JediXmaster (talk) 18:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted
to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: It would be great to have more opinions from users who are not ethnic Armenians nor Azeri, and who were not involved in the ethnic conflicts in the past.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:35, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter (talk) 11:35, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but improve -- This is not an ideal article and no one claims that it is so. The article needs some improvements as many articles in Wikipedia. As Wikipedia editors our duty is to help to improve the articles, but not to delete one which quite well sourced. All editors are free to make their edits with respective sources (and after getting consensus, if needed). Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Besides Peterkingiron, there are yet to be an unbiased vote. His keep and improve was far from being yours. As he is suggesting to broaden the article to include both sides. Jedi Master 01:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, all editors are free to make their edits with respective sources. If there are alternative views (with the reliable sources) on the events that occurred, feel free to add them. Or create an article to show deportations of Armenians from Azerbaijan, as you wish. Or even merge the both articles. Still better solution than deleting a well-sourced article, reasoning it with the fact that there is some shared information with another article (which is, in fact, not a violation of Wikipedia policies). Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 02:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and improve. This is a difficult decision. The article as it stands appears to be unbalanced in a way that favors an Azeri perspective. This, I hope, can be corrected through editing, although I think there may be a more fundamental POV conundrum at work here: one could argue that the very existence of the article constitutes a POV violation. If one were looking at it from the Armenian side, one could argue that the idea of a systemic, planned deportation of Azerbaijanis across different eras of the 20th century is an Azeri construct. Thus, the Armenian could argue, the article's very existence gives credence to the Azeri perspective at the expense of the Armenian one. I think we can put to rest this concern, however, by pointing to the first quote above from Grandmaster from
    WP:GNG. The article should be improved to give a more neutral perspective on the subject and the events surrounding it. Cover the controversy, in other words, instead of pushing perspectives. --Batard0 (talk) 13:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.
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