Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. While a majority of editors have !voted for keep, editors in favor of deletion continue to maintain that strict organizational notability guidelines have not been met. The difference in evaluation comes down to differing assessments over the degree of independence of various examples of coverage cited in this discussion, as well as assessments as to whether coverage is of the organization, of its reports, or of its founders. A few keep !votes also made IAR arguments to the effect that this organization's reports' prominence in coverage relating to Israel-Palestine is sufficient to establish notability despite the fact that this coverage is generally not of significant depth regarding the organization. signed, Rosguill talk 15:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor

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Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Fails

WP:NCORP
; no coverage which is independent, reliable, and significant,

While there is a small amount of independent coverage of some of the initiatives it has launched and the reports it has published, this is not sufficient to establish notability per both

WP:NCORP#Significant coverage of the company itself
; Sources that describe only a specific topic related to an organization should not be regarded as providing significant coverage of that organization.

Note that this article was previously deleted under a different name at

WP:UPEs
.

Source assessment table:
Source
Independent?
 Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward
GNG
?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181211-euro-med-hrm-saudi-arabia-has-forcibly-disappeared-3-libyans/ Yes ? No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.marsad.ly/en/2021/05/19/euro-med-hrm-calls-for-disclosure-of-maps-for-mine-sites-in-libya/ Yes ? No Significant coverage of a "call" from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.euromedmonitor.org/en/About No About-self ? Yes ✘ No
https://uia.org/s/or/en/1122281718 ? Unclear where these profiles come from; whether they are from the organization Yes No One sentence of coverage of their aims, and a list of its structure ✘ No
https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine Yes Yes No No mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/report-special-rapporteur-situation-human-rights-palestinian-8 Yes ? No No mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/israels-icc-rebuttal-admission-war-crimes-rights-group Yes Yes No Significant coverage of a statement from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/07/family-visits-imprisoned/ No Republication of a republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ~ No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/2890/Euro-Med-announces-changes-in-its-administrative-and-executive-structure No About-self ? ? ✘ No
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-targets-rights-defenders-un-council-hears/1992437 Yes No
WP:RSP
for Anadolu Agency (controversial topics, international politics) 		No Significant coverage of a statement from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/author/ramy-abdu/ ? ? No Focused on Ramy Abdu; no significant coverage of Ramy Abdu or Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/author/ramy-abdu/ ? ? No Focused on Ramy Abdu; no significant coverage of Ramy Abdu or Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2019/08/27/as-mena-states-grow-increasingly-repressive-businesses-should-lead-reform/ No Published by Ramy Abdu ? No No mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/staff No About-self ? ? ✘ No
https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/101164 No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://imemc.org/article/euro-med-monitor-report-suffocation-and-isolation-15-years-of-israeli-blockade-on-gaza/ No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://web.archive.org/web/20200407104742/https://www.soc.ucsb.edu/faculty/lisa-hajjar No Faculty page for a member of the Euro-Med HRM Board of Trustees ? No No mention of the Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://poli.ucalgary.ca/profiles/tareq-ismael No Faculty page for a member of the Euro-Med HRM Board of Trustees ? No No mention of the Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/michael-smith-uae-prison-mps-b1813663.html Yes Yes No Significant coverage of a letter organized by the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://exeter.academia.edu/TanyaNewburySmith No academia.edu page for a member of the Euro-Med HRM Board of Trustees ? No No mention of the Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/authors/3/Maha-Hussaini No About-self ? No Maybe SIGCOV of Maha Hussaini, not sigcov of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/author/maha-hussaini/ No Author page for a Euro-Med HRM reporter ? No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/maha-hussaini-martin-adler-prize-win-rory-peck-trust Yes ? No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.una-oic.org/page/public/news_details.aspx?id=328294&NL=True No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? No Significant coverage of an official complaint from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.un.org/press/en/2021/ngo914.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Libya ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2021/ngo923.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Bahrain ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2021/ngo927.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Israel ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2022/ngo942.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Bahrain ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2023/ngo950.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Israel ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2023/ngo953.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Israel ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2023/ngo959.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Bahrain ✘ No
https://press.un.org/en/2022/ngo933.doc.htm No UN press release about the UN granting Consultative Status to several NGO's Yes No Single sentence of coverage about an objection from Israel ✘ No
https://kvinnatillkvinna.org/about-us/where-we-work/mena/palestine/ No Funded (?) a Euro-Med HRM Project ? No No mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2017/08/palestine-gaza-civil-society-women-leadership-incubator.html Yes ? No Significant coverage of Women's Leadership Incubator project, passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.launchgood.com/campaign/from_denial_to_defense_youth_for_rights#!/ No A "go fund me" equivilent for a Euro-Med HRM project No No Significant coverage of the project, not of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
http://www.ju.edu.jo/Lists/NewsLetter/Disp_f.aspx?ID=1175&Issue=August%202016&order=8 No UJ Newsletter about a summer school hosted at UJ ? No Passing mention of the Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://thepoliticain.co.uk/middle-east/201/ No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? No Significant coverage of a summer school set up by Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.bnreport.com/en/wikirights-2/ Yes ? No Significant coverage of a program by Euro-Med HRM to edit Wikipedia, no significant coverage of the Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://law.ju.edu.jo/Lists/AcademicNews/Test.aspx?ID=78&ContentTypeId=0x0100FB3DD40023178C409CDBAC99DB39D980 No Copy of source 36, this time hosted on UJ's sharepoint ? No ✘ No
https://web.archive.org/web/20211003105920/https://europebriefnews.com/2017/10/25/watering-the-seeds/ Yes No Not discussed at RSN, but I'm convinced that it is not a reliable source. The source is obscure and now defunct, and its "about me" page only said "Europe Brief News (EBN) provides our readers with latest news from across Europe such as news, stories, politics, tourism, travel, food, health diet and many more topics" which does not indicate any level of editorial control or reliability. The specific article also raises questions; it is labeled as "news", but it is reads as an opinion piece.

Note that there is a current organization using the name Europe Brief News that does appear reliable, but they are not the same entity - the current one was founded in 2020.

 ? It could arguably contain
WP:SIGCOV
, but I'm not convinced; it uses a lot of words but says very little about Euro-Med HRM, and WP:NCORP requires that the coverage is sufficient to "makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization". However, this is a lesser issue than the reliability of the source. 		✘ No
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/3190 No About-self ? No Significant coverage of a project launched by Euro-Med HRM, no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/11/career-assassination-dws-scapegoating-of-arab-employees Yes Yes No Passing mention of a press release from Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.nonviolenceinternational.net/many_faces_wann No Appears written by We Are Not Numbers ? No Significant coverage of We are Not Numbers, a project launched by Euro-Med HRM, but not of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.middleeasteye.net/features/deported-israels-war-against-palestine-solidarity-activists No Written by the secretary of Euro-Med HRM ? No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/128695 No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? No Significant coverage of We are Not Numbers, a project launched by Euro-Med HRM, but not of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
We Are Not Numbers: Junge Stimmen aus Gaza No A book written by We Are Not Numbers ? ? ✘ No
http://mondoweiss.net/2016/07/struggles-triumphs-palestinian/ Yes ? No Significant coverage of We are Not Numbers, a project launched by Euro-Med HRM, but not of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://web.archive.org/web/20160824141709/http://www.daysofpalestine.com/news/israel-bans-right-activist-entering-gaza/ Yes ? No Single sentence of coverage of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.972mag.com/gaza-fence-stories-hebrew/ Yes ? No No mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/5/german-court-rules-palestinian-ex-dw-journalist-sacking-unlawful Yes Yes No Passing mention of a Euro-Med HRM investigation ✘ No
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5039/Euro-Med-Monitor%27s-We-Are-Not-Numbers-project-celebrates-graduation-of-new-batch-of-writers No About-self ? No ✘ No
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5562/Euro-Med-Monitor%E2%80%99s-project-We-Are-Not-Numbers-launches-17th-cohort-of-writers No About-self ? No ✘ No
https://news.trust.org/item/20210902130009-tk186/ Yes ? No Two quotes from Euro-Med HRM; syndicated from a Reuters article which is used seperately as a reference ✘ No
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/they-told-us-they-hate-africans-hundreds-detained-deported-abu-dhabi-2021-09-02/ Yes Yes No Two quotes from Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/tori-58446660 Yes Yes No Two quotes from Euro-Med HRM. Appears to be identical to the two reuters and truth.org sources linked above, except translated into Pidgin ✘ No
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1437749/saudi-arabia-human-rights-abuse-minister-disappeared ~ Most of the coverage related to Euro-Med HRM consists of quotes No
WP:DAILYEXPRESS
 No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://reliefweb.int/report/turkey/risks-refugees-disabilities-face-turkey-how-mitigate-risks-and-challenges-shape-apt No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://europebriefnews.com/2017/12/09/euro-med-monitor/ Yes ? See earlier discussion of Europe Brief New's reliability No Significant coverage of a report from the Euro-Med HRM, but not of the Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/world/middleeast/fleeing-gaza-only-to-face-treachery-and-disaster-at-sea-.html Yes Yes No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1437749/saudi-arabia-human-rights-abuse-minister-disappeared Yes No
WP:DAILYEXPRESS
 No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jordan-arrests-hundreds-of-teachers-after-violent-clashes-zzg7ppsvh Yes Yes No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-war-survivor-commemorates-victims-paintings-2022-05-26/ Yes Yes No Passing mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
https://palestine.unwomen.org/en/stories/feature-story/2022/05/zainab-al-qolaq-a-survivor-of-an-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-in-may-2021-tells-her-story ? ? No No mention of Euro-Med HRM ✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
BilledMammal (talk) 05:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note that this table was added on 28 January not 21 January and now there are two of them one here and one at the bottom. Selfstudier (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was added on 21 January. And this one covers the sources in the article, the one at the bottom covers the sources presented in this AfD. If you wish, feel free to remove both of these comments per
WP:MUTUAL. BilledMammal (talk) 10:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Survey
  • Delete insofar as the claims made by @BilledMammal are factually accurate. The re-creation after an AfD in that way is also very concerning. FortunateSons (talk) 10:32, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the 2015 deletion was on the basis of only 3 delete votes and the 2021 AfD was closed as no consensus. So the story is more complex than that. Zerotalk 11:09, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I read those, I am referring to the claims the sources (and secondarily on the paid editors) which appear accurate. I performed a cursory search myself and have not found other (better) sources (except the article by NGO Monitor, whose reliability is disputed per the RS Noticeboard). FortunateSons (talk) 12:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was judging by the standards of other canvassing I've seen which have been pretty blatant. I believe any other suspected ones are by university students on this program [7]. Their edits seem quite reasonable actually so it must be a fairly good course even if most of hem have been heavily edited since. Wikipedia itself organises similar courses [8]. NadVolum (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the ones I've identified have been board members - although it's possible that the ones that I haven't connected to individuals are those students.
Regarding Pigsonthewing's comment, I posted there because the editors who frequent that forum have experience reviewing COI editing, and such experience would be helpful here. I included that summary to make the relevance to that forum clear, and I didn't consider it an issue because it is factual and because COI editing isn't a reason to delete an article - it's merely a reason to review it more carefully. However, I'll be careful to avoid using terms like "UPE" in the future. BilledMammal (talk) 05:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely keep- they are currently providing the most accurate casualty data for the war, according to consensus on that page. Irtapil (talk) 05:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Iskandar323 et al. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For ease of review by other editors and the closer, I've created a table of all sources presented in the AfD.
Source assessment table:
Source
Independent?
 Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward
GNG
?
ample references to it ? A link to Google Scholar search results. No specific source provided. ? A link to Google Scholar search results. No specific source provided. ? A link to Google Scholar search results. No specific source provided. ? Unknown
this paper published in the Lancet No Authors include the founder and chairman of Euro-Med HRM Yes No Coverage is limited to detailing Euro-Med HRM's activities in preparing the report: "The field researchers of Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor covered 338 (64%) of the total 530 children killed. They focused extensively on mass attacks because it was difficult to cover hundreds of attacks taking place at the same time for 50 days." No
WP:SIGCOV
of the Euro-Med HRM itself. 		✘ No
UNRWA published press releases 1 No Republished press release from Euro-Med HRM ? No Coverage of a primary report from Euro-Med HRM; no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
UNRWA published press releases 2 No Republished press release from Euro-Med HRM ? No Coverage of a statement from Euro-Med HRM; no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
Their reports are routinely picked up by RS Yes Yes No Coverage of a call from Euro-Med HRM to free a Tunisian prisoner; no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
) Watchdog Submits Evidence of Israeli Executions of Gaza Civilians to UN, ICC in Common Dreams Yes ~ While Common Dreams is not at RSP, discussions at RSN lean towards it being unreliable No Coverage of a report from Euro-Med HRM; no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
Rights at Stake and the COVID-19 Pandemic: Two Special Issues of the Journal of Human Rights Scholarly Citation. Yes Yes No Coverage is "The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, a Geneva-based Human Rights NGO, reported that the law legitimized censorship and restricted freedom of expression (Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor 2020)." Not even SIGCOV of their report, let alone SIGCOV of the organization. ✘ No
National and International Civilian Protection Strategies in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Schoarly Citation. Yes Yes No Coverage is "PA Security also commonly targets opposition. The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor documented 1,274 arbitrary detentions in the West Bank in 2015 and 1,089 summonses by Palestinian Security Services. The human rights violations targeted mostly individuals affiliated with Hamas or who opposed PA policies, including about 35 journalists and human rights activists, 476 university students, and 67 teachers/professors (Euro-Med 2016)." Not even SIGCOV of their report, let alone SIGCOV of the organization. ✘ No
Israel 'stealing organs' from bodies in Gaza, alleges human rights group Yes Yes No Coverage of an allegation from Euro-Med HRM; no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
Allegations of Organ Theft by Israel Add Insult to Injury in Gaza Yes Yes No Coverage of a report from Euro-Med HRM; no significant coverage of Euro-Med HRM itself ✘ No
https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/euro-mediterranean-human-rights-monitor ? No
WP:CRUNCHBASE
; source is deprecated 		? ✘ No
https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/datacard/euro-med-human-rights-monitor?rid=326186932081-66&sid=142920 No Mirrors other sources, which lack independence. For example, the significant coverage comes directly from the Euro-Med HRM's website, and other coverage comes from the EU transparency register, which is populated by submissions from the organization ? Yes ✘ No
https://uia.org/s/or/en/1122281718 No They normally provide "a profile in the words of the organization itself" ? No Only one sentence of coverage; "Advocate for the human rights of all persons across Europe and the MENA region, particularly those who live under occupation, in the throes of war or political unrest and/or have been displaced due to persecution or armed conflict." ✘ No
3 by Richard A. Falk No Richard A. Falk is the chairman of Euro-Med HRM's Board of Directors ? Yes ✘ No
4 by Reliefweb No Republication of a Euro-Med HRM press release ? Yes ✘ No
5 by Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency Yes Yes No Coverage is of EuroMed Rights, not Euro-Med HRM - different organization, with a very similar name. ✘ No
NGO Monitor's article 6 Yes No Editor who presented the source has !voted for it to be deprecated No Two sentences of coverage containing highly contentious claims. The closest we have to
WP:SIGCOV
, but not good enough - particularily given how the source is about to be found unreliable at RSN. 		✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
If any editor disagrees with my assessment, please say so - and for the ease of review of your claims by other editors and the closer, please provide a quote of the content that you believe constitutes significant coverage of the organization. Please keep
WP:NCORP#Significant coverage of the company itself in mind when doing so. BilledMammal (talk) 05:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Well since you're repeating yourself my I repeat that is a guideline and "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though occasional exceptions may apply." and
WP:BUREAUCRACY. Is the aricle well worth having in Wikipedia? That's what AfD discussions like this are about. NadVolum (talk) 12:34, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
@
primary source (i.e. an insider's view) even when reliably published (i.e. interviews, their statements or based on material provided by them with no analysis, interpretation, or transformation by others, etc.). S0091 (talk) 20:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Unfortunately the template doesn't include a row for that; I'll see about including it. BilledMammal (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: number of sources does not show notability - those sources need to be independent of the subject and reliable and have indepth coverage of the subject. None of the sources appear to meet this criteria. PhantomSteve/talk¦contribs\ 09:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 14:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - Passes GNG. Could use a good pruning, article suffers from bloat. Carrite (talk) 22:53, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per
    conflict of interest, I disclose have long been a very public advocate of a two-party state, and literally wrote Palestinian law. Bearian (talk) 14:28, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment Moneyhouse report on EHRM German Wiki page (not in sources tables) clearly satisfies GNG and contrary to what is written in the sources tables, LobbyFacts.eu, is a perfectly respectable source of info about EHRM. Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What they're saying is that no reliable source has dealt with it as a prime subject of interest. There's no real drama or controversy about its projects or publications despite what NGO Monitor says and other sources are only interested in what it says or does, not the organisation itself. I believe the article should be kept according to IAR as having encyclopaediac value, I wouldn't normally call myself an inclusionist but this type argument is what meta:Inclusionism versus meta:Deletionism is about. NadVolum (talk) 17:01, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The coverage in Moneyhouse is not independent. The only sigcov there is in "Commercial register information", which is copied unedited from the swiss commercial register, and it is provided to the commercial register by Euro-Med HRM. BilledMammal (talk) 20:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All information about an organisation comes ultimately from the organisation. Sources don't become non-independent solely because some of their information comes from the original. We rely on intermediate sources, in this case the EU Transparency Register, to process the information. Your argument would also eliminate a news story based on an interview on the basis that the information comes from the interviewee. It is perfectly obvious that this is a perfectly respectable source. Zerotalk 06:33, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not sure you understand; this is content written by Euro-Med HRM. It being republished elsewhere doesn’t make it independent. BilledMammal (talk) 06:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I take an editor post that was deleted for say ARBECR and instead sign my name to it, I take responsibility for it. Get it now? Selfstudier (talk) 09:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ORGIND
, addresses this question directly:

Independence of the content (or intellectual independence): the content must not be produced by interested parties. Often a related party produces a narrative that is then copied, regurgitated, and published in whole or in part by independent parties (as exemplified by churnalism). Independent content, in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject.

The content being republished by an independent party doesn't change the fact that it was produced by an interested party. BilledMammal (talk) 10:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, you don't get it, that's fine. Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well there isn't anything that describes the organisation itself except that NGO Monitor or itself or blogs and they're not reliable sources. It has to stand on its own merits as being widely used by reliable sources and for its activities. That last Delete !vote above, I looked becaused they talked about COI, actually seems to support human rights articles for organisations that have far less written about them - I noticed
WP:HEYMANN. It looksd like straightforward human rights organisations have problems that way - perhaps they should have more scandals! NadVolum (talk) 11:45, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
The two reputable sources I gave actually do describe the organization itself for the purposes of GNG. Selfstudier (talk) 12:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, they republish Euro-Med HRM's description of itself. Per the section of
WP:NCORP that I quoted that isn't considered independent coverage and thus doesn't count towards GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 12:37, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
In your opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the EU Transparency Register's linked "Guidelines for applicants and registrants" it states The information in the Register is provided by the registrants themselves, on the understanding that they are ultimately responsible for its accuracy. The Secretariat monitors the quality of the Register’s content and reserves the right to de-register ineligible registrants, including those found not to observe the code of conduct. Their disclaimer says information is not necessarily comprehensive, complete, accurate or up to date.
Lobbyfacts acknowledges in their disclaimer about the EU Transparency Register As stated on its website, information on the official EU Register is provided by registrants themselves, making it the sole responsibility of those organisations. It is recognised that some entries in the official register are inaccurate, incomplete or otherwise misleading. Based on this information, the EU Transparency Register and those relying on them are not reliable sources because the register does not have reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. S0091 (talk) 16:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Lancet is another example of a clearly independent source, by virtue of the peer-review process. An academic working at a university could write a paper specifically about their own activities at that university and by virtue of the peer-review process the resulting content would still be independently vetted by virtue of the peer-review process. This does not apply to all published literature ofc, but it certainly applies to peer review.
Iskandar323 (talk) 19:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I can't comment about Lancet specifically because I do not have access but what you describe is a reliably published
primary source, so reliable but not helpful for notability. S0091 (talk) 19:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
In this case, the arguably involved author is not the lead author and only one of four contributors, and the topic is not the author, but pertains to research findings, so the work as a whole is perfectly secondary (+ peer review).
Iskandar323 (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Wow. JoelleJay (talk) 19:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:IAR It was correct to nominate this for deletion and it probably doesn't meet a strict interpretation of wp:notability guidlines. But wih the preponderance of sourcing and information, and that having this article exist is more likely to serve the reader than the organization/ one which readers might seek to be informed on, I think that it's an article that should exist in Wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 13:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC).[reply]
    To serve our readers it's not enough to present an overview of the organization; we need to present a neutral overview of the organization.
    Unfortunately, that isn't possible if our only significant coverage comes from non-independent sources - and would be a violation of
    WP:V, which says Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. BilledMammal (talk) 13:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    @BilledMammal: Again, you were correct to take this to AFD. And per my previous post, I agree that it has not been established that this meets the wp:notability guidlines as written. As a preface, I could come up with strong arguments in either direction on this. I would also have several quibbles with the arguments in your past post. Setting all of that aside, at this venue, this is simplly a "should this article exist?" question, and I gave my opinion on that. I gave my rationale as wp:iar and the usefulness of the article. Another way to state my argument in wp:notability terms is that per the criteria described in Wikipedia:How Wikipedia notability works this topic is very enclyclopedic and has some importance / impact, making it something that people would be likely to seek an enclyclopedia rticle on, and pushing the wp:notability equation up into the edge case zone. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect and merge with Ramy Abdu. I simply can't find fault with the case BilledMammal has made. Yes, the org's reports are widely mentioned, including in scholarly literature, but there is indeed an almost complete lack of significant and independent coverage of the organisation itself in reliable sources. Happy to reconsider if or when new sources come to light, but we do have rules for a reason. We should follow them. --Andreas JN466 12:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't belong under the founder Ramy Abdu and the content would look silly there. And it wouldn't fit under the current leader Richard A. Falk either. In fact much of the stuff from it wouldn't even mention them. NadVolum (talk) 23:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The WordsmithTalk to me 22:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of the above are trivial. Keizers (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking through those, I'm not seeing significant coverage of the organization - some of them contain coverage of a specific topic related to the organization, but per
WP:NCORP#Significant coverage of the company itself
that is not sufficient to count towards notability.
Could you provide quotes of the content that you believe consitutes significant coverage of the organization?
I note that the ReliefWeb article is not independent, as it is written by Euro-Med HRM, and NGO Monitor has already been dismissed as unreliable - and I suspect that the editors arguing to keep this article would also reject the UN Watch article. BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing significant coverage of the organization

Did you not read the UN Watch article? How do you construe UN Watch claiming Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor’s leadership routinely posts antisemitic and pro-Hamas content online as being coverage of a specific topic related to the organization? And what topic might that be, may I ask?
When Doha News says

The Geneva-based human rights group has been at the forefront of exposing Israel’s crimes against humanity committed in occupied Palestinian territories

and when they further report that

Israeli institutions... have attempted to spoil Euro-Med’s standing

...exactly what do you think they are talking about, if not about Euro-Med itself? What "other topic" are you alleging they're really covering, to which any mention of Euro-Med is merely ancillary?

I suspect that the editors arguing to keep this article would also reject the UN Watch article.

Reject it how? We are not flat earthers; we agree the article exists, we are not rejecting its existence. That we disagree with the article is besides the point. If tomorrow the entirety of the Israeli consent manufacturing machine started raving 24/7 about how (insert random human rights organization) is actually Hamas and Hitler in a trench coat, as they regularly do from time to time, we might not agree with them, and we would surely find them to be eminently dishonest, yet, nevertheless, the mere fact of such coverage would likely cause the object of their rage to meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Even if there weren't other coverage- and in this case, there most assuredly is. Brusquedandelion (talk) 02:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The UN Watch article doesn't contain significant coverage of the organization. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell all it says about the organization is that it's officials, who include Richard Falk and Ramy Abdu, are notoriously biased and antisemitic, and routinely posts antisemitic and pro-Hamas content online. That isn't significant coverage of the organization.
The Doha News article has similar issues; the only independent coverage of the organization, as opposed to coverage of a specific topic related to the organization, in that article is the two quotes you provided, and 29 words don't amount to
WP:SIGCOV
.
As for rejecting the UN Watch article, I've already seen one of the editors arguing to !keep this article argue it is unreliable, and I suspect if I tried to add it to the article it would quickly be reverted - I suspect they won't reply, but let's ping them to ask: @
WP:SIRS sources on the topic would warrant, assuming you don't dispute that it contains SIRS converage? BilledMammal (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
The Doha one looks like it was written by a journalist and is about the organisation. NadVolum (talk) 12:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Jerusalem Post is clearly RS about EMHRM and Doha News while not objective, also clearly writes about the importance of the organization. And ReliefWeb is reliable because the site is operated by the UN and clearly thinks EMHRM is important enough to mention. I am not a guru on Wiki policy but there must be some
WP:COMMON SENSE applied here? Third party journalism about the organization cannot be the only yardstick of notability.Keizers (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
The various reasons have been given above with links to the various policies. Community discussions like this are part of the commmon sense mechanism of Wikipedia, it can agree a consensus exception from a rule. Those rules - policies and guidelines however are the result of a lot of prior editing decisions and discussions so good reasons have to be given for exceptions. The rest of what you say is your presentation of that type of reason. NadVolum (talk) 21:54, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oi! You've been on Wikipedia since 2006! You'll know far more about all that than me! NadVolum (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, yes but I've never come across this exact degree of stubbornness re original research v. coverage. No doubt because Israel/Palestine is an emotional topic, particularly right now as its victims are livestreamed to our phones every day.Keizers (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Jerusalem Post contains a small amount of coverage of a claim that Euro-Med HRM has made; it doesn't meet the requirements of
WP:NCORP#Significant coverage of the company itself
. If I am mistaken, can you please quote the coverage?
The ReliefWeb source is written by Euro-Med HRM; it doesn't matter whether it is reliable or significant, as it isn't independent. BilledMammal (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep as per Iskandar323, Keizers, and others. Absurd we are even having this debate, and if the main subject that this organization covered were anything other than the situation in Israel and Palestine, I suspect no such discussion would be had. Brusquedandelion (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for those points above... exactly what I was trying to express.Keizers (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If this organization covered any other subject it would have been an uncontroversial deletion; no compliant coverage and COI editing by the organization usually makes for an easy AfD. BilledMammal (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I miscount, you have now made 24 comments in this AfD, many of them very long and many of them repetitious. This is what
WP:BLUDGEON is about. You should stop. Zerotalk 06:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I was thinking the same thing.
Can I ask why you feel so strongly about deleting this article, @BilledMammal?
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of them were concerned with addressing, in considerable detail, unsuitable sources that editors bombarded the discussion with; ideally, editors would have ensured the sources they provided aren't obvious
WP:NCORP failures, but since they didn't I had to detail the issues. However, since you're here, do you care to comment on whether you consider HonestReporting and UN Watch sufficiently reliable for use in the article? BilledMammal (talk) 06:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
(Now 25) I have stated my opinion that this organization is notable. I still hold that opinion, and believe it is obvious on its face and does not rest on the reliability of either HR or UNWatch. I also find your repeated pings to border on harassment. Zerotalk 07:00, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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