Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gamu Nhengu
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete and redirect to
The X Factor (UK series 7)
.
There is a rough, approaching firm, consensus to delete here. The debate is about whether the retention of the article is precluded by
general notability
, which is not the issue (BLP1E, and arguably NOTNEWS, will preclude articles even where there is "significant coverage").
The dispute about BLP1E and NOTNEWS generally revolves around whether this is "one event" and a mere "news item" without enduring impact and coverage. Some degree of crystal ball-gazing is inevitable here by both sides. But at this stage there is a consensus that BLP1E, and to a less clear extent NOTNEWS, apply on the basis that (a) (for BLP1E) the subject is only notable for the one event; and (b) (for NOTNEWS) there is no evidence of enduring notability. I note the large number of early delete !votes. These early !votes may have otherwise been overtaken by events (eg if coverage and further events snowballed during the AfD). But even discarding the first few days of the AfD the consensus among the discussion would still have been to delete, indicating that after 14 days little had changed.--
]Gamu Nhengu
About as
WP:NOTNEWS. I don't think there is any realistic chance of historical notability based on what we have so far here. T. Canens (talk) 06:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
- Delete. The gossip columns' attention relates to the appearance on X-Factor (or the result of it), it is commonly accepted that only finalists of talent contests are notable – usually only the winner and two runners-up. She fails on that count. The subject attracted 200,000 facebook signatures petitioning against her deportation... so yes, seems to be ]
- Delete. No one will care about this person by the end of the month. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.83.42.131 (talk) 10:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per ]
- Delete ]
- Delete due to Wp:NOTNEWS (see previous comment - seriously, this is considered news in Britain - and due to her impending removal from the United Kingdom). DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)|(talk to me)|(What I've done) 15:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS 86.156.0.137 (talk) 15:52, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as she is ]
- Delete and the redirect to ]
- Keep no matter what people think about reality stars in general this particular one has reached notability beyond X factor. her latest news story even made it onto the daily news on Sky News.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Even though she's been mentioned on the news it should go. She is ]
- Keep: Gamu Nhengu has not only been featured in the tabloid press and Sky News, but also by the BBC/ITV news teams, the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, The Times and by many overseas press outlets. She is notable, at least for now, as her story has been taken up internationally by politicians and press alike. -- Myosotis Scorpioides 13:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This is a breaking story and it's premature to pass judgement on it yet. In the list of those voting to delete: how many are from from the UK and watch the show when we can find people in here screaming 'delete' from New Jersey? There are a lot of people wanting information on the story and this is an excellent place for them to find it. For once don't let WikiTwits embellish Wikipedia's reputation any further. Otherwise it might be time to start an article on 'Wikipedia Stupidity'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.149.44.232 (talk)
- I am from the UK, I voted delete. WP:BLP1E. If they win, and/or go on to have a successful career, that is the time for them to have an article. 86.156.0.137 (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Per above ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(Ταλκ) 17:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I feel still that their is enough pointing towards a keep as she has reached notability beyond her X-factor appearances. She made the headlines even outside the UK.. that is alot more than even some X-factor finalists have done.,--BabbaQ (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- keep per above Aisha9152 (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes also the delete crowd here points towards certain "wikipedia rules" that doesnt even apply in this particular case/article. While the keep crowd points towarda actual opinions and standards. But that is just my opinion on the matter.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Why do ]
- Delete Not notable. However there is a need for a paragraph below the list of The X Factor (UK series 7)#Judges' houses for major candidates rejected and there's no doubt Gamu Nhengu deserves a sentence or two regarding her performance and the outcry that ensued her elimination by Cole werldwayd (talk) 19:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:BLP1E - she's only received coverage for being kicked out of X-Factor and there isn't even any news about a career after the fact so she is likely to remain non-notable outside of this one event. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 23:57, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The social media campaign to keep the contestant in the competition reflects the changing ways in which people are now able to show their disapproval of decisions made by TV shows. The impacts of the campaign also reached into both national and international politics. The campaign affected domestic UK politics with Scottish MPs and SMPs calling for their ability to keep Gamu in Scotland as a major asset to Scotlands culture. In Zimbabwe both the current government are seeking to use Gamu in their internal politics with the opposition party saying she is a role model for Zimbabwean women and the Mugabe government wanting to make her a national hero in an anti-british campaign. 81.174.168.133 (talk) 11:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC) — 81.174.168.133 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Comment I should point out that the reason Nhengu is in the news is already mentioned in The X Factor (UK series 7)#Controversy and criticism. AnemoneProjectors 12:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS. as many people have said. LibStar (talk) 13:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep What harm is the article doing? Do you people not have other more serious things to worry about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reli source (talk • contribs) 18:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See ]
- Delete Perfect example of ]
- Keep I initiated this article not because of how outstanding Nhengu's talent may or may not be - opinions differ - or any prediction of lasting eminence on her own account, which obviously requires the verdict of time, but because of the exceptional phenomenon surrounding her rejection, which goes well beyond the scope of the article about the show itself. Only if you have been consuming British popular culture (in which I include the saturation of everyday gossip) in this past few weeks can you understand how out of the ordinary this has been. No other reality TV contestant has engendered a greater spontaneous public campaign (which extends beyond Facebook) to change a decision; an extraordinary half the residents (5/ 10k) in her county have now signed a petition to the British Government to allow her to stay in the UK; and it has thrown up a most significant example of newspaper double-speak where those tabloids that most enthusiastically fan anti-immigrant rhetoric have been the cheerleaders for keeping her in the country - many commentators have said that it has given a more human face to immigrants and asylum seekers. All that is worthy of note even in the unlikely event that she disappears without trace. There is therefore an argument for making the article one on 'The campaign for reality TV contestant Gamu Nhengu', but my judgement was that that would be a considerably more clumsy way of gathering the information, given that the story does revolve around her, seems far from over and may well produce further twists. Llahgob (talk) 11:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC) — Llahgob (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Keep Initially notable for one incident but subsequent events have occured which are also notable, as debate exists about the status of children of people in the UK on visas, and she has received far more newspaper column inches than practically all of the finalists combined. As the article was created to identify a 'notable contestant', she qualifies. There is also the social media campaign on both Facebook and Twitter, and the accusations of producer interference in contestant selection within so-called 'reality' programming which make her a notable person in the UK. User:Apex204 (User talk:Apex204) 21:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep There are multiple events which concern the subject directly and so BLP1E does not apply. This is not routine ephemeral news and so NOTNEWS does not apply. Instead we have massive notability per WP:GNG and notability does not expire so this person will still be well documented in sources in perpetuity. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete and put any usable content in chat!) 17:19, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Classic violation of BLP 1E and NOT TABLOID. I generally support Wikipedia covering all significant news events but not transient internet phenomena of no possible continuing interest. DGG ( talk ) 03:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No possible continuing interest? This seems a bold prediction as it is my experience that, in such cases, continuing coverage is almost certain. If continued interest can be demonstrated in a year or more from now, will you undertake to restore the article if it has been deleted, so that it may be developed further? Colonel Warden (talk) 07:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I highly doubt it, it is already out of mainstream news, relegated to the middle pages of the tabloids (if mentioned at all). Feel free to revisit the article in a year! But I doubt you will have seen continued interest; people get bored, the media moves on. Unless the mount a significant legal challenge to avoid deportation (which is unlikely, the home office seems to have a cut 'n dried case) or some other big thing happens (i.e. she is executed or something) then it's a storm in a tea cup --chat!) 09:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I highly doubt it, it is already out of mainstream news, relegated to the middle pages of the tabloids (if mentioned at all). Feel free to revisit the article in a year! But I doubt you will have seen continued interest; people get bored, the media moves on. Unless the mount a significant legal challenge to avoid deportation (which is unlikely, the home office seems to have a cut 'n dried case) or some other big thing happens (i.e. she is executed or something) then it's a storm in a tea cup --
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.]
I'm giving a rationale for this relisting. Although the number of commentators in this AfD is beyond doubt enough, the discussion seems to not have come to a definite consensus. Seeing polarised comments for keep and delete, and also viewing a few votes that are illogical, I have to relist this AfD. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Wifione ....... Leave a message 09:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply
- Delete - utterly non-notable WP:BLP1E. Contestants in The X-Factor and other reality TV shows are generally not notable enough for their own pages, let alone those who failed to get through the earlier rounds. In this case, this was a story the tabloids ran with for a few days, but they've now got bored and moved on; it's already yesterday's news. There's no case for long-term notability here. Robofish (talk)
09:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Keep: Although the subject of this discussion achieved notoriety via the X Factor, her notability extends far beyond the TV show now. The topic of WP:GNG.-- Myosotis Scorpioides 11:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and possibly rename if necessary - but deletion is not an option here. In my opinion it is not a BLP1E, given that there are multiple events connected to the coverage in sources, which is wide. In any case let us remember that BLP1E is almost never a reason to outright delete: the policy says: In such cases, it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article. - Therefore, in the case consensus is assessed for BLP1E to apply, the article can be renamed and edited to switch the focus to the event (which clearly passes GNG) -as it has been practice in multiple other cases (e.g. ]
- A singularly bad example; it was a marginal event at the time, but the ongoing media coverage (spanning the whole lot of years between then and now) solidify it as historically significant. I doubt this will be mentioned again after Xmas (if not before). If it is things can be reconsidered easily. --chat!) 13:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Historical significance is not something we can fathom and is not a criteria of forever: once something has been picked up by sources, it is notable, it doesn't cease to be so because public's attention vanishes. --Cyclopiatalk 14:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It depends on whether we consider this a BLP1E (which I do, very much) or a BIO. In the former case we do ask for historical significance or a lasting effect. --chat!) 15:09, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It depends on whether we consider this a BLP1E (which I do, very much) or a BIO. In the former case we do ask for historical significance or a lasting effect. --
- Historical significance is not something we can fathom and is not a criteria of
- A singularly bad example; it was a marginal event at the time, but the ongoing media coverage (spanning the whole lot of years between then and now) solidify it as historically significant. I doubt this will be mentioned again after Xmas (if not before). If it is things can be reconsidered easily. --
- Strong keep Massively notable with widespread on going media coverage per editor Myosotis Scorpioides. The fact she's attracting coverage week after week in TV , magazines and newspapers ought to be enough to persuade folk she has enduring notability, even if they can see a reason. But just to be helpful , heres three very significant aspects to her story, which also show BLP1E doesn't apply. Shes a rare case of a reality TV evoking so much passion that there has been multiple death threats against those who voted her off the show. It's a notable case of an online campaign having real world impact. The fate of her family and the related public debate is an interesting bellwether of opinion in British society - which will be the strongest out of the poplar desire for tougher immigration procedures v the human appeal to let them stay? FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I still believe that Gamu is notable beyond her original X-factor appearance. Her face is seen almost daily in newspapers and her story has been spread trough out the world. This article is a special case as she might not be notable for her x-factor appearance alone, but the effects afterwards has made her notable.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete WP:BLP1E. A failed reality tv run is really her only claim to fame, fan-driven facebook hysteria or rumors of deportation do not confer notability outside of the original event. Tarc (talk) 16:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- typical delete sayers, pointing towards Wikipedia standards that can be interpreted in different ways. Also its as usual never any deeper explainations to their stand except the usual "non notable television star" totally disregarding other factors. Like here above. This is a keeper.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This person failed a reality tv competition. Fans created a facebook group. There's some vague rumors of deportations and racism reported by tabloids. That's it. All of this is part of the same topic; reliable sources cover this person in the context of the X-Factor bid. Yes, failures can go on to do more and become notable independent of the original event, e.g. William Hung. But when the coverage of Nhengu is being blared by the likes of entertainmentwise.com and little else, there's not much one can do to justify an article. This is why we have 1E and not-news guidelines; so that one-and-done news blips don't get an article in an encyclopedia forevermore. Tarc (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: To everyone invoking NOTNEWS, which, remember, is not meant to delete every news from the encyclopedia but to avoid covering "routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities", I want to quote the wise words of WP:ATA#CRYSTAL. "Notability is based on objective evidence of whether sufficient reliable sources have taken notice already, not on subjective judgments of whether people should take notice in the future. Focusing on the objective evidence helps the deletion discussion reach a logical conclusion; injecting your personal predictions does not." --Cyclopiatalk 11:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Incorrect. NOTNEWS says quite explicitly: most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion, and then goes on to list some examples. NOTNEWS does not list explicitly what we should disclude, instead it asks us to consider the enduring notability of people and events. This is a regular mis-interpretation of NOTNEWS that is sometimes used to try and incorrectly undermine it. None of these are hard and fast rules, simply advisories with which we try to make an informed decision. In terms of the article, BLP1E helps establish this as suitable as an event, not a bio, and under that context it is not suitable for an individual article. However it may be (and indeed I agree is) significant for inclusion in the X Factor article. --chat!) 11:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a bit of a bias on Wikipedia that the Keep sayers has to establish a huge amount of reasons for their opinion, while Delete sayers never have too. Gamu is notable way beyond her X-factor appearance and that is why I said Keep. And I will stick to that.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion this is starting to look like a No Consensus Afd. Because facts has been brought on that proves both sides of the argument pro or against Gamus article. The only reasonable thing to do would be to end this Af as No consensus and then if nothing more happens in 6 months time then bring a second Afd discussion on.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- BabbaQ, you're starting to verge on disruptive. We've all made quite extensive cases - both for keep and delete. Either actually contribute more information or sit back, don't rehash you're same arguments over and over (this is explicitly discouraged). It could actually harm your argument. --chat!) 21:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- BabbaQ, you're starting to verge on disruptive. We've all made quite extensive cases - both for keep and delete. Either actually contribute more information or sit back, don't rehash you're same arguments over and over (this is explicitly discouraged). It could actually harm your argument. --
- In my opinion this is starting to look like a No Consensus Afd. Because facts has been brought on that proves both sides of the argument pro or against Gamus article. The only reasonable thing to do would be to end this Af as No consensus and then if nothing more happens in 6 months time then bring a second Afd discussion on.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a bit of a bias on Wikipedia that the Keep sayers has to establish a huge amount of reasons for their opinion, while Delete sayers never have too. Gamu is notable way beyond her X-factor appearance and that is why I said Keep. And I will stick to that.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Incorrect. NOTNEWS says quite explicitly: most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion, and then goes on to list some examples. NOTNEWS does not list explicitly what we should disclude, instead it asks us to consider the enduring notability of people and events. This is a regular mis-interpretation of NOTNEWS that is sometimes used to try and incorrectly undermine it. None of these are hard and fast rules, simply advisories with which we try to make an informed decision. In terms of the article, BLP1E helps establish this as suitable as an event, not a bio, and under that context it is not suitable for an individual article. However it may be (and indeed I agree is) significant for inclusion in the X Factor article. --
- Delete —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eucberar (talk • contribs) 10:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep subject has notability way beyond original appearance on the X Factor, given her status as an asylum seeker example amongst the British media and British public. Also notable in terms of massive public online support potentially impacting on her citizenship in the UK. This potentially has importance as a piece of social and immigration history. Kafuffle (talk) 15:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep I strongly agree to keep the page. I do believe that the Gamu page is completely nobel. She has had number of headlining pages in the paper's - plus a appearing on one of the biggest shows in the UK, i think that the page is now nobel. L.Geee 14:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per ]
- keep!!! The whole world is talking about this girl.Not just her singing talent but political issues, immigration issues,racism, media issues internet groups,ect.... People are going to want to know about her, they need somewhere decent yo get their information from!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.77.1 (talk • contribs)
- Delete as per the comments above. This article indicates that she has not heard from anyone on the X Factor, including Mr Cowell, so is likely to be deported back to Zimbabwe. Once that happens I doubt very much we'll hear of her again, so not notable --5 albert square (talk) 15:58, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete I absolutely believe this article should be deleted. If this person was worthy of a wikipedia article, every TV blow-in would be on wikipedia. She got her 15 mins of fame, she will soon be forgotten and this article will be of use to no-one. Seriously consider this; how many people would you think will type Gamu Nhengu into a search by next year? Heggyhomolit (talk) 21:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What people will search next year is completely irrelevant for our inclusion standards. All what matters is if ]
- Likely quite many as she according to the article and a source could be shot if she returns to her homeland. Also her possible deportation in itself will have people looking for this article about Gamu,.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I simply meant that she is not worthy of an article of her own as she will be forgotten by then. I do however believe that any information about her should be included on the ]
- Delete Even past contestants who made it ONTO the live shows and the final don't have their own articles. They had media coverage during the shows but they were not worth articles on, and have their own section in the show-related articles. And yes nobody will care or remember this in a short while. Dollvalley (talk) 23:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Appears to meet the GNG. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:25, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Extreme case of WP:NOTNEWS. She is notable for one single event, being on the X factor. What is more, she failed to qualify for the finals. Even most contenstants who do qualify for the finals of this annual show don't have Wikipedia articles, and Ms Nhengu is no different from the large number of people who did not make the final. The fact that many people thought her to be good does not make her more notable.Jeppiz (talk) 20:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Two weeks on, as the initiator of this article, it seems to me that the original justification for its existence has only grown. Those who repeatedly point to Nhengu's personal relative 'non-notability' or transient fame are correct (currently - although the latest rumours suggest she has several offers of recording contracts), but are missing the point - the article is NOT here primarily because of her mere appearance on X Factor, how 'good' a singer she is or is not, or her 'failure' to get to the finals (none of which, alone, justify it), but the exceptional public *reaction* to that which has been widespread, international, involves numerous issues not least the hot topic of immigration and asylum in the UK, and continues as I write. It is not a footnote 'about' the TV show, but a separate and notable phenomenon involving thousands of articles in reputable publications in numerous countries, and a variety of topics and connections; her name seemed to me the most convenient hook to hang all that on. Hence, while there remains an argument to change the title, deletion of this body of information at this stage would seem to irrationally discount all that evidence. Llahgob (talk) 10:07, 19 October 2010 (UTC) — Llahgob (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- but the exceptional public *reaction* to that which has been widespread, international, involves numerous issues not least the hot topic of immigration and asylum in the UK, see this is my main reason for rejecting the subjects notability. It's not really "international".. not at least from my observation anyway. As to the asylum issue, certainly it is controversial, and there has been some public reaction. But not a lot and the case is fairly cut and dried against them; she will almost certainly be deported today. My problem, though, is this; no reporting has dealt in any depth with the "controversy", mostly it was outraged fans (from what I can pick up), which is fair enough, but I don't really see anything particularly notable, legally game changing or otherwise of enduring public interest. *shrug* --chat!) 09:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- but the exceptional public *reaction* to that which has been widespread, international, involves numerous issues not least the hot topic of immigration and asylum in the UK, see this is my main reason for rejecting the subjects notability. It's not really "international".. not at least from my observation anyway. As to the asylum issue, certainly it is controversial, and there has been some public reaction. But not a lot and the case is fairly cut and dried against them; she will almost certainly be deported today. My problem, though, is this; no reporting has dealt in any depth with the "controversy", mostly it was outraged fans (from what I can pick up), which is fair enough, but I don't really see anything particularly notable, legally game changing or otherwise of enduring public interest. *shrug* --
- The public's reaction is not a reason for this article to stay, quite the opposite. If it is the reaction of the public to this The X Factor (UK series 7). As a matter of fact, it is already dealt with in that article.Jeppiz (talk) 09:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Justification for its existence? It looks to me like the vast majority of votes here are to delete the article. People get deported all the time, and as for UK asylum and immigration issues; I don't think this case has any encyclopaedic purpose. I really don't see a place for this article on wikipedia, and I stand by my original vote to delete. As a matter of interest, this subject has not been in the media all week.Heggyhomolit (talk) 10:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To add to the comment above, I read Swedish, Finnish, German, French and Italian media daily and have never seen Nhengu mentioned even once. I do not say that fame in only one country would not be sufficient (provided that the person is notable in that country, which I don't think Nhengu is), but those advocating "keep" by claiming "international coverage" seem to overstate their case.Jeppiz (talk) 10:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Justification for its existence? It looks to me like the vast majority of votes here are to delete the article. People get deported all the time, and as for UK asylum and immigration issues; I don't think this case has any encyclopaedic purpose. I really don't see a place for this article on wikipedia, and I stand by my original vote to delete. As a matter of interest, this subject has not been in the media all week.Heggyhomolit (talk) 10:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.