Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Genderfuck

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Tyrenius 01:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Genderfuck

Genderfuck (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log
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I am nominating this article for deletion because it is patent nonsense. It is a repetition of "genderqueer" with a profanity used simply for shock value. If it is a valid term, it is not sufficiently notable to be included in an encyclopaedia; and WP is not a dictionary. The article is unsourced and no evidence is provided for the claims made. 87.127.44.154 10:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I'll remove them for now. Even if it's not BLP-violating, it's certainly OR without citations, and as a side note, I've just discovered not to Google "genderfuck" at work. :) --Dreaded Walrus t c 13:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. I personally don't actually like the term, but it is an established and notable term in its own right. I get the impression that someone has merely looked at the title, seen an obscenity and decided that they wanted it gone. Hopefully this AfD will prompt someone to put some effort into referencing and expanding the article, and the list of links on its talk page should provide a start in that process. --AliceJMarkham 13:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a dictionary - references won't help. This is a neologism and doesn't belong. MarkBul 14:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per the following:
  1. WP:NEO
    - We are not a dictionary. "words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities."
  2. reliable sources
  3. WP:OR
    - as noted by others, this is original research.
/Blaxthos 15:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies I got into a bit of a muddle at the end of my comment. Basically I think Genderfuck needs to be expanded with sources now or to be brought into a parent article until there are enough sources to expand beyond a stub. But there is no reason to delete it--Cailil talk 22:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I fail to see how my gender expression is teaching people to swear. Kolindigo 18:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - you all know that IPs can't do an AfD, right? This should be closed. --David

Shankbone 18:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

It was nominated by Dreaded Walrus, not an IP. --Pixelface 18:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was nominated by me on behalf of the IP. All I did was create the page. If IPs aren't allowed to nominate articles for deletion, then accept my apologies, as I was not aware of such a rule. --Dreaded Walrus t c 18:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, you did the right thing. This is a procedural nomination--they happen all the time. IPs simply cannot create new pages so, by default, can't properly AfD nom an article, but they can participate in every other part of the deletion process as any non-admin editor. — Scientizzle 21:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Pete.Hurd, Grutness, Becksguy above. DuncanHill 18:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deletefuck per Pixelface.  Gruefuck  20:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I apologize if anyone was offended by my comment, but it was actually a self-conscious effort to "fuck with" or play with traditional notions of voting within articles for deletion discussions. I want to ridicule and destroy the whole cosmology of restrictive voting patterns and voter identification. I don't know if you're familiar with the term deletefuck, but deletefuck is generally an intentional attempt to present a confusing suggestion during deletion discussion which contributes to dismantling the perception of a "voting binary." Deletefuck implies not only the instigation of confusion for the sake of breaking down the binary, but also leaving more fluid room to be self-expressive and self-explorative with less expectations of a norm and more room to play via being radically honest. I suppose the word fuck belongs in the fucking article, but to use the word fuck in any discussions of the fucking article would be really fucking inappropriate. I'm really fucking sorry I used the word fuck so many fucking times. It shows really poor fucking taste to use the word fuck in any fucking discussion of this fucking article. I would not want any of the fucking readers of the
    Genderfuck article to be fucking offended by my fucking comments. Fucking thank you for your fucking time. --Pixelface 21:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment - We get it. There's no need to keep mocking it. Kolindigo 21:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could stand to hear a little more. Mainly because it's humourous, you silly sausage Kolindigo. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In addition to the response by the previous author, here's a list of books that mentions this term.
I in fact agree that there is a difference between Genderqueer and Genderfuck. My position is this: Gender bending and genderfuck cover a similar area and maybe one topic. Take the two lead lines, which are pretty accurate summaries of the academic material on the terms: Genderfuck is a self-conscious effort to "fuck with" or play with traditional notions of gender identity, gender roles, and gender presentation and Gender bender is an informal term used to refer to a person who actively transgresses, or "bends," expected gender roles. There is a difference but genderfuck & gender bending are very very similar areas. I agree that genderqueer is something totally different but these two are not so different. Certainly in Europe Gender bending is the term that's used, genderfucking has yet to be established critically over here. I can only see the two terms benefitting from the merger (but then I am a mergist)--Cailil talk 23:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am the user who originally proposed this as an AFD. Thank you to Dreaded Walrus for completing the process. I hope my original thoughts, quoted at the top by Dreaded Walrus, count's as a delete - otherwise please count this as a delete. Reading through the comments on here I now realise my original thinking was wrong. However, while coming to the conclusion that my reasoning was wrong, my view that this should be deleted remains. The reason I beleived Genderfuck and Genderqueer were the same is because the article isn't sufficiently clear as to what it means. It is written in a pseudo-academic language which would confuse most readers who were not already familiar with LGBT/Gender issues. It also contained a list (which has been removed as a result of this discussion) of "Famous Genderfuckers" - including those who had articles on WP deleted because they were not notable. The phrase may be well known in a minority community; but it isn't a widespread community language. How can it be? It can't be used on mainstream television or radio programmes and most newspapers wouldn't use it other than in specific features looking at LGBT issues - so the phrase has no chance of moving into mainstream language. So it will remain a minority community phrase - and looking at the comments above and the edit history of the article, it is clear that the minority community is itself in somewhat of a confused position when asked for a straightforward definition of what it is. I am also concerned about the inclusion (see above) of this discussion on an LGBT/Gender Issues section of Wikipedia. I have seen other AFD discussions cross-referenced on specialist project group areas; but they merely list the articles for discussion and send people here. The LGBT/Gender Issues project goes further and re-creates an editable discussion of all tagged articles in a separate place. Surely that should not be allowed. This is the place for AFD discussions and all editors who wish to take part can do so here. Tagging articles on a specific subject so that editors can make their views known in another place is surely using WP to create a form of meatpuppet? I know there is a lot of "votes" here for "keep" - but AFD is not a numerical vote. I hope the confusion shown by "keep" advocates as to the meaning of Genderfuck and the arguments put forward by those in favour of deletion will enable the administrator to come to a "delete" decision.

87.127.44.154 06:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • By that logic, though, the article for
    the theory of post-humanism. Neither of these enjoys what might be called mainstream use...I can't walk up to someone on the street and say "I'd like to discuss the theory of post-humanism with you, but am afraid that we may have difficulty because of the semiotics involved" and expect them to know what I'm talking about. So are they concepts that we should not include here, for lack of mainstream use? Quite the opposite - we include them in the encyclopedia because if someone walks up to you on the street and says those things, you can look them up here! We're cataloging human knowledge (even if that knowledge is primarily within a minority community), not television. As to the confusion about the meaning of the term, I'm afraid I don't give that argument much weight. If the article is unclear on certain points, it should be improved. If the concept itself is unsettled, such fact should be reported on. Neither suggests deletion. --TheOtherBob 16:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Please see
    the article. I'm not sure what you're looking for there -- links to internet versions of the sources? If so, someone may be able to help -- but Google and the library are your friends. As to your guess that they might be student dissertations, that does not seem correct. Just to go in order, Dennis Altman is a professor at La Trobe Univ. in Australia, Peter Coviello is a professor at Bowdoin, and Elisa Glick is a professor at the University of Missouri-Columbia. (I'm not going to go all the way down the list, but you get the point.)--TheOtherBob 16:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]

- Personal Experience as a primary source

1. I personally used this term, and provided many "genderfuck" experiences as a club / disco dancer in the early 1990's. We would, for example, intentionally go out in leather muscle wear, and full face drag makeup. the express purpose was to assault the senses of those onlookers. Another would be for example, comabt fatigues, weapons and red high heels.... etc... this was intentional as a way of not showing our "personal orientation" but as a method of performance art, showmanship and "shock value" for the various clubs.

2. Would the term "clusterfuck" not be allowed as slang? I think anyone would agree that this is a true term and definable statement. As would many other terms such as "SNAFU" "JAFO" and others. --CodySteed 02:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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