Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus - I'm closing this early as the discussion has no hope of reaching any sort of consensus, plus half of it is not relevant to the article anyway (and some is not even in English). Please continue any relevant discussion on the talk page. Yomanganitalk 16:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kurdish Genocide (Turkey)

This article seems to be about the historical opinions of one lecturer. "Desmond Fernandes" isn't a major historian, and the article treats what he says as consensus. It is my opinion that this article (whose title misleads as to the consensus around this issue) will never be able to avoid being either a soapbox or a PoV-fork, and is in any case a non-notable term for the event. I know this doesn't mean much, but searching for the "Kurdish Genocide" on google gives 50k links (compared to about 1 million for "armenian genocide" and a whopping 40 million for "Holocaust"), nearly all of which talk about Saddam's, not this. The accepted content (i.e. people died and it wasn't by accident) is already in the relevant articles. Otherwise, take your pick between deleting, merging, redirecting and keeping the article... yandman 15:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And shall we also give a chance for votestacking Dirak? Is votestacking also notable? Baristarim 07:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you ever find a source of chemical weapons being used against Kurds in Turkey, pls bring them in and share them with us. Otherwise this is your POV and violates WP:OR.Baristarim 05:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a confusion as to the meaning of the word genocide. Take for example, the German occupation of France. Lots of French people were killed. A few were guerillas, but most were not. Entire villages were burnt to the ground. Torture was common. But this was not genocide. There's a difference between brutal repression and genocide, and from what I've read in the various links provided and googled, the consensus on this is that it was the former, not the latter. yandman 08:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. POV or POV-title is not AfD reason. All articles start from a specific POV and end to NPOV with the intervention of other editors. Deleting it is wrong, as the particular POV is adequately sourced. We should expand it and then seek if we need to rename it. One side's POV in this cannot be punished for the lack of work from the other side (attributed IMO to the concern that it would legitimize the article). As the article stands now, content is verifiable and title is correct. I would definitely like to see those points regarding terrorist attacks etc, sourced and included in the article. Until, then... NikoSilver 10:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasn't clear enough. I'm not proposing deletion because the title is PoV. I'm proposing deletion because this article is about a non-notable theory backed by very few scholars. yandman 10:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    NikoSilver, the artile itself is a pov-fork. The title is the least of the worries. Topic is almost always covered under the window of "Human Rights" and even then "human rights" organizations themselves are often criticized by themselves (there is a famous recent case but I do not want to bring content dispute to the afd). --Cat out 14:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks yandman for clearing that out. As I said, I'd like to see the scholars/countries/groups/organizations etc and their arguments that contest it. I think 40k in Google means notable enough, and the scholar sources provided are something. Don't get me wrong, I don't support the existing POV, I just find it adequately sourced. NikoSilver 11:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Niko, you cannot contest something which is an extreme pov. We cant create a fictitous debate on whether Kurds suffered genocide in Turkey when there is no such debate. You employed the same argument on the Pontian greek "genocide" article, it has the convenience of confirming the extreme pov as 'unchallenged' when in fact it so minority that there exists few people to counter such claims. The problem is the claim still lacks authoratitave and verifiable sources. --A.Garnet 12:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Alf, no other view is different than minority view. It is completely legitimate to have a sourced view. You have to cite another view in order for the existing one to be minority view. NikoSilver 12:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There would be a chaos of articles if Wikipedia followed the minority view policy. The Spanish or whatever professor's opinion can be mentioned in the context of a History of Kurds in Turkey or -whatever we have- article.--
Doktor Gonzo 14:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
No, those sources have to be authoratative and verifiable in the first place before you ask for counter-claims. If i created a sourced article on a genocide of Turkish Cypriots, and asked you to show me sources explicity claiming otherwise, would you be able to do this? No you would not, because there is no such academic debate, which in your view, would somehow mean my article is representative of academic consensus. --A.Garnet 13:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not let this turn into yet another regional argument. As an academic view, it should be presented. I'm just not sure that it merits an entire article. The previous gSearch was flawed, as it gave mainly links to Iraq. "kurdish genocide in turkey" gives 47 hits, all of which are dodgy (either "Desmond Fernandes" or "cultural genocide" allegations or Kurdish sources). I'd say that a redirect and a paragraph in "Human Rights abuses in Turkey" is enough, but then again maybe this academic view has more proponents than my (admittedly crude) research has shown. yandman 13:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree - it gets hits in Google Scholar [1], ergo as far as I'm concerned it merits an article if sources can be found. //Dirak 13:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It gets eight hits, half of them from the same site and two of them from this Spanish guy whose thesis is presented in this article as confirmed fact, thus breaking WP:OR Baristarim 05:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you want a good Google search, try this one [2]. There are, after all, more ways of saying it (be creative...). According to A.Garnet however, Google searches are irrelevant (or does this only apply in selective cases?). //Dirak 13:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is it the amount or quality of the information that matters? Most are Kurdish operated websites, some mention some seminar given by the Fernandes person in London, some are blogs and most of the rest are nearly irrelevant that somehow have Kurds and genocide in the same page.--
Doktor Gonzo 14:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Nikos, it doesn't write "stupid on my forehead. I know exactly what this is about. I would like to inform the other readers and closing admins that this page was created by a Greek user when there was a big debate going on in

Greek and Turkish Wikipedians cooperation board. Great work and keep it up. Top class work that is.Baristarim 02:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Well, first find the reliable sources and any mention or recognition of this by a sovereign, US state, then the article can come back up..Baristarim 00:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, since half the article is a POV FORK of the Human Rights in Turkey article. There are no mentions of this by any reliable news organizations, except from some extremely biased sites that "claim" that there has been such thing. Where are the strong sources to support the gravity of this article's title? Baristarim 02:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Important note: This is this user's contributions list [3] He has not made any edits since November 11. I put a note on his talk page when I launched the Greek and Turkish Wikipedians cooperation board on November 26, he added his name on December 14 and, except those, his only edit since November 11 has been his vote in this AfD. He should explain how he learned of this AfD, considering that this article was only created three days ago.Baristarim 07:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep, the very reason that this is a balanced poll shows it is an issue with strong supporters either way, hence worth mentioning in Wikipedia.--   Avg    23:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • WRONG. Wikipedia is not a gang. Just because, "somehow", ten Greek editors turned up in here in the space of couple of hours to vote keep is not a sign of "strong support" from both sides.Baristarim 02:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete What is the basis for this article? There has never been any referrance to this "genocide". Are you crazy? There are millions of Kurds who live in Turkey, when did this genocide happen??!! Turkification, yes. Not genocide. Can you show me one reliable news organization that has referred to as so? One country? One measely US state? There are none! There are more referrances to
    Native American genocide, however that's not what the article's place is. I would like to remind the closing admin that all the keep votes seem to be coming from Greeks, and I am utterly disappointed and disgusted after all that talk of goodwill and good faith. Whatever...Baristarim 00:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • WP:OR is clearly an issue here. The gravity of the subject matter implies that it will be able to provide extensive sources and reliable and serious research to back up the large claims of the article's title. Baristarim 00:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      • Some Turkification circumstances, sadly, imply a genocide like those events in maras, sivas, diyarbakir, hakkari. These things happend ask people and you'd find out; labeling Kurdish people's doors to killing them in groups. Turkey did a good job in hiding its dark sides but we need to present this information to the future specially when we have enough reliable sources. Ozgur Gerilla 01:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just to add a few notes. Baristarim there are some references on this issue, some which are already in the article, some which are not and are waiting to be added and for you to note that no huge research has been done mainly because of the corruption of Turkey's higher education system. You say there's millions of Kurds still living in the Turkey, as if how could this be, after a genocide; well look at Germany there's still millions of Jewish people living there after the Holocaust. I also find it ignorant for you to mention some voters ethnicities and say that it reflects their opinion on the matter. Please let's remember Wikipedia does rely on realible sources and books but we write those books and it's time to understand that this issue has been restricted long enough, let's be open about it. Ozgur Gerilla 01:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Forget it Baris, no matter how good your intentions, you just cannot reason with these people. --A.Garnet 02:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ozgur, of course I will mention the ethnicities, since it seems to me quite interesting that ten Greek editors turned up here, in the AfD of a page created two days ago, in the space of a couple of hours. It doesn't write "Stupid" on my head, if I didn't mention it, then I would be really ignorant as you claimed. And you are wrong again Ozgur, there are not millions of Jewish people living in Germany after the Holocaust!!! Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND? Did you just take that number out of the air or do actual research on this? And your claims about the lack of research is completely off the charts. Where were the Europeans? They could have done research.. Half the article is a POV FORK of Human rights in Turkey in any case. You are confusing the meaning of genocide with something else. Turkification does not imply genocide, I am afraid. Ozgur, you are living in a completely dream world! What genocide? Do you even know what that word means? The whole article is riddled with Wp:V, WP:FORK and WP:OR issues.Baristarim 02:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • That some events imply genocide is your personal POV btw. This is not a forum, we cannot create articles based on the POVs of their editors.Baristarim 02:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • Baristarim, if we was to decide these things depending on peoples ethnicities then we couldn't decide anything because we will be stereotyping; which means that we nor the greek nor the turks nor kurds could give an opinion on this matter. You're complaining about the amount of greeks voting for an article considered for deletion which is completely not logical when we think about the amount of turks that have voted here, how about them? is the turksish opinions always right ha? is this what you're going to say next? Check on your sources again there's millions of jews in germany and EU. Of course we aren't a forum but we are here to discuss matters and decide and stop accusing me of not knowing the meaning of words please. I'm here to do research and put some useful information backed with reliable sources on an issue that has, in my opinion, happend, with many Kurds backing it. You have your opinions I have mine, here's the arena, let's prove it with academic sources if we can't, don't be angry and sad about it we'll be here in one month. Ozgur Gerilla 02:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Despicable tactics and votestacking by the "so-called" "pseudo"-members of the cooperation board

I am not stupid, neither are other people. I know exactly what went down with the article that Dirak created, and most importantly, also know why it was created. It was created two days ago, it was AfDed by an Englishman, with even a Swiss editor voting for delete, and BOUM ten Greek editors show out of nowhere one after another and vote keep. There is no way that so many Greek editors would be aware of that page since it was created only three days ago. That's not possible. This is despicable. I would kindly request that all those editors strike their names out of the cooperation board participants list. There is no need for editors who engage in such charades for such blatant attempts at disruption of Wikipedia to use that board as a smokescreen. That's not why it exists. It is not the roll call of every Greek and Turkish editor on Wikipedia, it was created for a purpose. I am sure that those with self-respect and dignity will heed my call. What is even more disturbing is the reason for the creation of the article in question. It is blatantly obvious: The debate in the PGG article has been heating up for the last week after a two month sleeping period and BOUM this article comes. Real class. We are not at a carpet store: if there are those who envy carpet-selling techniques, they can open a carpet store. When the AfD is completed, you can be sure that there will be a report filed at ANI, and a probable RfC. Baristarim 07:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ten Greek users appear from nowhere?!!! Hmmmm ... Well, for about a year (speaking for myself) I'm somewhere in Wikipedia. So, I return to you expressions like despicable, and I express my sorrow for your improper and insulting comments. Try to respect other people's opinion.--Yannismarou 08:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


When I said "out of nowhere", I meant to this AfD, out of nowhere. I know very well that all the contributors to this AfD have been in Wikipedia for a long time. Baristarim 09:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then try not to slander or islult other people and not to make assuptions.--Yannismarou 09:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
With a little research and rational thinking anybody would assume plenty after seeing all the same people giving the same vote in Turkey related sensitive articles. This is where I have a problem with Wiki's assume good faith policy, it prevents from saying King Midas has a donkey's ears.--
Doktor Gonzo 14:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, I was not referring to anyone in particular. I cannot change your opinions, but if a simiar thing had happenned with Turkish editors, ie if a Turkish had created a Albanian genocide article, then ten Turkish editors who had signed up to the coop board jumped in (some who had not even edited since November 11 [4], then I am sure that you would have felt the same way. Especially, if the article in question was created per WP:POINT because of a dispute in another turco-greek page. Of course you have the right to browse any page you want in Wiki, but it might be nice if you explained how you actually learned of this AfD. I really would like to know what you would have felt if the situation was inversed between Greeks and Turks. Have any Turkish coop board members created an Albanian genocide article, emailed each other and all showed up in the space of ten hours to vote keep? Are you honestly telling me that there isn't anything fishy? How did all those users learn of this so quickly? Personally, I was contacted by a non-Turk over this after ten Greek editors suddenly showed up and voted keep. This user emailed me because I was at the coop board and also because he thought that there was something "extremely fishy" going on (his words). Baristarim 09:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat that I decline to answer to your unfortunate assumptions.--Yannismarou 10:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then my "assumptions" are the best guess out there. Particularly this [5], so there is definitely one incidence of emails being sent to unrelated users. If it has been done once, then the common sense rule is that, it would have been done again. It doesn't make sense that whoever woke this user from his sleep of 1.5 months would only email him, now does it? I already explained how I learned of this, and the history of the article will show when I joined in the debate.Baristarim 10:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But let's call it off. This issue has been extensively talked about, there is no need to delve into it anymore. Baristarim 10:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree.--Yannismarou 11:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's cool it

Could everyone calm down, please? The main argument here seems to be that most people think that the content of the article is important and needs to be discussed. Well, to be honest, the main argument seems to be about Greco-Turkish relations, but let's pretend it's not, mmmmokay? I've merged the article here, and I propose redirecting this page to that specific chapter. Does anyone have a valid argument against this (i.e. a BBC article calling it a "genocide", or a Nobel Prize given to this Fernandes guy, etc... not an article talking about Fernandes' views or Kurdish sources)? Thanks. yandman 07:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Concur Baristarim 08:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm strongly opposing the merger. Why not a seperate article, which will include:
  • The present status of the human rights of Kurds.
  • The history of violations of their human rights.
  • The alleged genocide.
I think that this is a very important issue, deserving a seperate aricle (maybe under a less POV title).But merger as a sub-sub-sub section?!!! No!--Yannismarou 09:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That article already exists: Kurds in Turkey. Maybe a merge to there would be better? yandman 09:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No! This is about Kurds in general. I propose an article orientated towards the human rights status of Kurds in Turkey with a title like Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey. I think this article deserves a seperate article, since the human rights status of Kurds in Turkey is a major issue towards Turkey's accession in EU. The current article we discuss could be renamed as I propose and expanded, inlcluding the 3 bullets above I mentioned. The section Human_rights_in_Turkey#Kurdish_people could link to this article like that:Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey. Since you volunteered to intervene, would you like to initiate that, if we achive a consensus here?--

Yannismarou 10:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, half the article already falls into the scope of the Human rights in Turkey, and such allegations of genocide etc are always talked about in the human rights sections of countries. "History of human rights abuses also falls into the scope of that article. Human Rights in Turkey article is not even a "long" article, you cannot expect another article to be created that incorporates two paragraphs of a Spanish guy's thesis. As for the current status of Kurds in Turkey, there is an article at Kurds in Turkey. Huamn rights of Kurds is not a major issue in TR-EU accession, have you been following the subject closely? There are already four articles: HR in TR, Kurds in Turkey, Turkish Kurdistan, Casualties of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict, why do we need a fifth article except for POV:FORK? Are these articles filled to the brim already? Baristarim 10:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, my friend. It is a major issue for EU and for Wikipedia, unless you close your eyes to the violent manifestations in Turkish Kurdistan concerning the human rights violations of the local population, the manifestations against Erdogan, the incident in the local police station involving the current chief of staff of the Turkish armed forces, the restrictions concerning the use of Kurdish language in Turkey. These issues definitely deserve a seperate article, including also:
  • The history of violations of their human rights.
  • The alleged genocide.
If these issues don't cover the criterion of notability, then no article in Wikipedia fulfils this criterion.--Yannismarou 10:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to mention every single event, Wiki is not a newspaper. Can I add all sorts of incidents to the HR in GR article? EU doesn't care at all about the situation of Kurds in Turkey, you should check that again per realpolitik. The restrictions on teaching another language as a first language other than the official one is also banned in many EU countries, and the HR in TR article also covers this issue, and I was the only one who actually dug up the references and rewrote the section, btw. There is no need to move it to somewhere else, since it is only two concise paragraphs to begin with. There is no such official thing as Turkish Kurdistan, so cut down on the political overtones. There are already four articles that relate to this, what is the fifth one for? The other articles are not even half-Long. If you were so interested in this, then why am I am the only one practically to have edited the HR in TR article in the last two months? I have never seen any of the voters above to have actually matched their statements of "i think this is important!" with any sort of act on the ground, so why should I believe that this is not just an attempt to create a bastard POV fork that will lay there for ages right after the AfD has closed? Am I wrong? There is no such thing as alleged genocide. Does the article Cyprus include "Turkish cypriot genocide allegations"? Baristarim 10:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Only an editor of an article has the right to be interested in it? Of course not! The fact that there is a section somewhere else does not mean that we cannot add another article providing further analysis. You argument does not outdo notability. And, in order to prove my interest in this topic, I can be the one who will create this article. And, say if I'm wrong, but the problem with the Turkish language is not just teaching, but also use of language in public places.--Yannismarou 10:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
?Again, an insufficient grasp of the subject matter: what public places? on what are you basing this? There are tons of music stores in Turkey that sell Kurdish music, in Istanbul there are many people who speak Kurdish in cafés or in the streets! Are you joking? It seems that none of the keep voters are not even sure what the subject matter is! Ozgur, for example, tried to prove that this was a genocide by saying "there were millions of Jews in Germany after Holocaust!!" (twice), to counter what I said about there being millions of Kurds in Turkey! That statement was utterly false, the same way with the relation of "public places" in languages. The notions are so confused, I might as well be arguing that Pyramids were built by Martians. I suggest to follow Yandman's version: the relevant text of this article has already been incorporated into HR in TR, let's redirect this to that article. However, keep in mind that the inclusion of genocide thesis in any article will be carefully scrutnised by WP:V, WP:POV and WP:OR no matter what zombie article it goes into. In any case, this won't be a healthy discussion if people who are participating will not reveal how they came across this AfD. It is relevant.Baristarim 11:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From Kurds:"Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language — although widespread — was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the EU, music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions)." Do you understand now what I mean? Can the Kurds create a channel broadcasting 24 hours a day in Kurdish? Can they form a party advocating autonomy in Turkish Kurdistan? Are the Kurds officially recognized by the Turkish governent as a seperate nation and a minority? I do now what I'm speaking about. And I do now that a judge who tried to reveal the truth in the "fiasco" in the police station in Kurdistan is no more a judge.--Yannismarou 13:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If a Kurd in Turkey says: "I am a Kurd - not a Turk", will he be legally persecuted or not?--Yannismarou 13:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DEFINITELY NOT!! If you are asking such a basic question, I wonder how you are even closely qualified to nominate yourself to expand this article. Where the hell is this coming from? This is simply insulting! What do you think Turkey is? Some sort of Saudi Arabia?
Yasar Kemal has said many times that he is Kurdish, he was never ever been prosecuted, in any case. I am in law, and I know the jurisprudence very well. If you are asking such a question, how can you come and participate in this debate by making such large claims as "genocide", "abuses" etc!!!!!! What the hell do some people think Turkey is??!! Is this A JOKE? The only thing you can be prosecuted is for actively (physically) supporting PKK et al. That is normal since it is recognised as TERRORIST, and such prosecutions have also happenned in Turkey. STOP! If the keep voters in this AfD are asking such basic questions, how can their comments even be considered as serious?! First it was Ozgur who tried to prove that this was genocide by saying "There were millions of Jews in Germany after the Holocaust" and now this? Are there any arguments out there that come this close being serious?! Yannismorou, if you do not know the answer to this, why are you asking this after voting? Why haven't you asked this to me before the vote? I could have easily told this you! How would you like it if I asked you "would I get prosecuted in Greece for saying "I am an Albanian - not a Greek""? as if Greece was some sort of Talebanic shithole. Please tell me, how would you have felt? Particulary after I had volunteered to write the "Human rights of Albanians in Greece" article! Please! Baristarim 14:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
I'm not joking at all. After all, I'm also a jurist. If you are right, then on what grounds was Pamuk prosecuted? And all these Kurdish members of the Parliament, who lost in the past their seats and were put in jail? And what is the nature of the crime of "seperatism", based on which many many human rights fighters and Kurds proud for their national identity have been persecuted (and not just prosecuted). And you still don't answer the other issues I mentioned, especially the freedom of use of the Kurdish language.--Yannismarou 14:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
@Yeah whatever. Are Basques recognized as a minority in France?
Is the Corsican language thought in schools as a first language?

There is a difference between a private complaint and a sentence. Baristarim 15:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • You also had some interesting points in the parts of your edit you deleted, with which I agree (the prohibitions of movement in Thrace until 1997 were indeed despicable) and I would like to discuss them with you. But not here. Let's end it. If you want, we can continue this discussion in our user pages or in anywhere else you want.--Yannismarou 15:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay guys, this is really not the right page to discuss this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thank yandman for his productive suggestions. I am inclined to accept Yanni's proposal. NikoSilver 11:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why not as part of Kurds in Turkey? To Yannismarou: contentious topic areas have an unfortunate tendency of getting ripped apart into ever more and more articles. In my view, that's a trend better to be avoided. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can have both a sub-section in a bigger article (let's say Kurds in Turkey) (so that the bigger article remains comprehensive and is not ripped apart into ever more and more articles) and a seperate smaller and more detailed article. Where is the problem? I think my proposal is absolutely encyclopedic.--Yannismarou 12:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To Nikos: Yeah, I am inclined to expect an explanation on as to how ten Greeks suddenly showed up in this AfD. There are already four half-long articles about this, there is no need to create a fifth fork bastard.. Baristarim 11:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I replied where you first posted the same question. NikoSilver 11:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with yandman and Fut.Perf. This very brief article is basically about acts of violence apparently committed against Kurds in Turkey that one writer apparently calls a genocide. To prevent a
    WP:POVFORK, it's absolutely sensible to include this in another article that already deals with these subjects, such as Human_rights_in_Turkey#Kurdish_people or Kurds in Turkey. However, a redirect is pointless, as this is not a likely search term. Sandstein 11:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Comment: There are related articles such as Casualties of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict, Human rights in Turkey and Kurds in Turkey which already covers the Kurdish resistance and its consequenses. The resistance should not be restricted to PKK. This prevents the discussion of the problems of Kurds in Turkey on neutral grounds. This kind of genocide allegations just causes provocations. It's obvious that there is no reliable sources, no data, no consensus among the mainstream of historians but just the baseless claims. It's no more than content forking. E104421 13:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

None of this article speaks in particular about the notable topic Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey. And that is how a seperate sub-article of a bigger main article is justified.--Yannismarou 13:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I added three academic sources in the article (for those interested in expanding it, that is). NikoSilver 13:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are these claims and sources given in the article reflect the opinion of the mainstream of scholars? That's the point. There are also articles claiming the contrary. The mainstream of scholars support the view that there is nothing as Kurdish genocide. This article is just a content forking original research. E104421 14:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment For those who are interested, I also included above how some "so-called" "pseudo" members of the Greek and Turkish Wikipedians cooperation board deliberately attempted to disrupt Wikipedia by creating such grave articles per WP:POINT and engaging in blatant votestacking campaigns that led to ten Greek users voting in this AfD in the space of ten hours. An AfD for an article that was only created three days ago. ALL THE KEEP VOTES HAVE COME FROM THESE USERS, WHEREAS MULTIPLE ADMINS, ALONG WITH MANY NON-TURK EDITORS HAVE VOTED FOR A CLEAR DELETE. This despicable campaign included bringing back a Greek user who hasn't edited for 1.5 months. If some people have some fantasies that they actually want that there was a genocide inflicted upon the Kurds, this is not the right forum. I will definitely file a report at ANI. This article was created per WP:POINT because of disputes in a similar article. This is unacceptable behaviour. None of these users have explained how they ran into this AfD at the same time. As I have said, if some people cannot fulfill the criteria required for the coop board membership, then they SHOULD REMOVE THEIR NAMES. Nikos's response to my question as to where he heard of this is simply making a mockery of Wikipedia. I am sorry folks but this failed coup attempt (no pun intended) is not going to succeed. Won't these users be warned to cease playing with this AfD? Have they been warned at all? There is no rational explanation as to how a Greek editor came back from a sleep of 1.5 months to vote in this AfD, along with the fact that so many Greek users all voted at the same time, out of nowhere. This attempt to portray a whole nation as genociders is simply racist, if any Turkish users tried to do this for some other country, blocks and ArbComs would be flying off the bat. Baristarim 14:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It is becoming easier and easier to attach the legal term genocide next to every ethnic group who has beef with Turks. Armenian, Assyrian, Kurdish, Pontic Greek Genocides, I've heard Bulgarians claim genocide by Turks, I am sure Serbian and Ionian Greeks will folow. These accusations and misuage of "genocide" is becoming harder and harder to take seriously. Of course it finds support from the Greeks -who in my opinion are better off dealing with their own minority problems: Albanians, Macedonians and Turks who they call Muslims- and from other interest groups and those who have little knowledge concerning the subject and its depth yet like to be the good guy. You may not like what I am saying but I sure am behind what I wrote and believe in its truth.--

Doktor Gonzo 14:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Thanks that you think "we are better off dealing with our own minority problems", but I think we still have a lot to learn from the way you treated the Greek minority of Turkey. You are great teachers and models to emulate!--Yannismarou 14:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Get to learn a little about how genocide became a part of our terminology[6]. Today UN is discussing redefining it and making even the execution of a single person an act of genocide.--

Doktor Gonzo 14:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

The End

OK. This is an AfD, not an RfC. I've moved the page to Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey, mixed it with some of the content taken from Human_rights_in_Turkey#Kurdish_people, and made it clear that only one academic believes it's a genocide. However, this article as it stands is still absolutely awful, and I hope that all those who have participated so virulently in this discussion will help bring it up to standard, lest one think they were just engaged in petty nationalistic disputes. I'd suggest continuing the discussion on the relevant talk page. Thankyou all, and That's all folks. yandman 14:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy my proposal was implemented. And I feel vindicated, although I'm afraid the Turkish friends here will never accept this was the best solution. I nevertheless invite them to co-operate, in order to make this article better. And they can add as many tags as they want.--Yannismarou 14:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's nice to see that good sense has at the end prevailed; and article on the human rights of the Kurds is sensible, as it's an important topic.--Aldux 15:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well said. The term Genocide is a tricky one and it is probably best that this article should be moved. However, what is happening to the Kurds in Turkey is more than just a question of Human Rights. The scale of killings brings to mind the word massacre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Politis (talk • contribs)
Politis, let's stop it here. You may be right, but there is no reason to continue this discussion here. I understand how you feel especially because of some improper and uncivil comments (some of them expressed in user pages and not here - at least Baristarim is straightforward) against you, me and other Greek Wikipedians by some of the reviewers here, but, let's call it off right here right now.--Yannismarou 15:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah similar to what's happening when residents of Athens revolted because they didn't want those 'filthy Muslims praying in their neighbourhoods'. You would be surprised at the horror stories Albanians who have lived in Greece have told me. Beating by the police, by the populace which the police doesn't do anything about, racist comments even by grocery shop owners etc. Not to mention the Neo-Nazi groups that regularly beat immigrants up. Oh, wait a minute, the Greek Navy does that too: by dumping them into the sea. Baristarim 15:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah whatever. In its current state it is a fork of TWO articles. It looks like some sort Frankestein that has been sewn from the wildest information out there. Not to mention THE DESPICABLE DISRUPTION OF WIKIPEDIA BY CREATION OF ARTICLES BY WP:POINT and VOTESTACKING CAMPAIGNS. I have nothing against the title of the article, however I know that this was only by POINT, and that this article will stay as a bastard POV fork for years to come.Baristarim 15:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, everyone who read the discussions in this page know that what I had said about the disruptive POINT and votestacking campaign was right There is no way that a Greek editor who hasnt edited for 1.5 months can come here without any prior notification. None of you have revealed how you were informed of this AfD. Talk of good faith! It has become obvious to everyone to what the problem is. This is it for me, I am not going to spend any more time with this charade. Out! Baristarim 15:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict):::Hmmm... Barristarim, I except you never heard of

WP:AGF? Or that one can get blocked for violating such policies? I'm sorry to say this, but I have noted a constant pattern of uncivility on your part, please mend your behaviour.--Aldux 15:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

I'm really sorry for this outburst (which is alone a "horror story"!), but I can justify it as a product of extreme frustration. Baristarim, I repeat to you once again my proposal to co-operate for improving the new article and for continuing this interesting dialogue and exchange of views somewhere else. And I also urge Politis not to continue that, although I know that he (and me as well) could say a lot as a response to these unfair and inaccurate comments.--Yannismarou 15:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find

·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

LOL and also one of the membership criteria is:
The most important is probably Assume Good Faith. Every wikipedian who wants to participate on this board is expected to assume that other wikipedians (not necessarily of this board) are acting in good faith, until otherwise proven.
Perhaps this case in an exception. /Dirak 15:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
AGF means we assume you do not have evil intent. It doesn't mean we are to allow problematic stuff which vote stacking qualifies. Politically motivated biased voting is unacceptable and is disruptive. Weather or not vote stacking is the case for this afd remains to be seen. I intend to get to the bottom of this charade. --Cat out 16:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow

I've been away and haven't been active much. I couldn't imagine that my humble and interesting creation would be so controversial... to the Turkish users (particularly Baristarim), if it means that much to you, then just get an admin to speedy it (you have my [the creator's] consent), just stop screaming (or should I say "STOP SCREAMING"). //Dirak 15:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural suggestion

Now that the article has been moved and merged and is actively being developed, may I suggest the following compromise about process: give this discussion an early close provisionally, without prejudice; and let's again review the article in a few weeks time, with an option of a renewed AfD or of merging back into one of the existing articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree!--Yannismarou 15:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Concur. However, if there are going to be any editors who will wake up from their months old sleeps to come and vote, we might as well play tavla instead :) Baristarim 15:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No response

Not the end. I have contacted you Baristarim about edits and you repeatedly failed to respond. So please, a change of tune would be welcome :-) User:Politis
Dirak a solution was found, so I also urge you not to continue commenting on this page. Let's regard it as closed case. And, Politis, the best place to express (if you still want it) your complaints to Baristarim is his user page I think. After all he has been warned by Aldux for his uncivil expressions.--Yannismarou 15:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have responded 'repeatedly. And an explanation as to how you all dropped by this AfD in the space of ten hours for an article that was created three days ago would be welcome as well. Baristarim 15:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think Fut Perf answered that. //Dirak 16:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what you are talking about. //Dirak 15:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Baristarim, your question has been indeed repeatedly answered by Fut Per. In any case, this is not the right place for such a discussion. If you still think that you have a case against particular Wikipedians, proceed to your due actions.--Yannismarou 16:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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