Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, default to keep. The discussion below suggests that although the current article in discussion is about the same topic as the article deleted last year, the actual content and sourcing are substantially different. I have verified this indeed by looking at the deleted page history. In light of changes to circumstances since the previous deletion, CSD G4 does not apply. There is a clear split of opinion of whether the article satisfies inclusion guidelines, so I'm closing this as NC default to keep. Deryck C. 21:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper

AfDs for this article:
IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Looks like the same list that was deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper. No analysis, primary sources -- just a copy of a couple of lists on the IFFHS website. ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Acticle was updated.
    AfD is not a substitution for cleanup. NickSt (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 20:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - not much has changed since the last AfD - the organisation is notable, this particular award is not. Fails
    WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 20:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I do not feel it is "significant" coverage - at most this should be redirect to the main IFFHS article. GiantSnowman 20:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:GNG: It need not be the main topic of the source material. You can see many refs in the article. Significance is enough. NickSt (talk) 01:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Here you say it is "my article" - that implies OWNership. Raising that point is not a personal attack in the slightest. GiantSnowman 11:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discuss about article, not personality. Why do you want to delete the article with 11 interwikies and many reliable sources? NickSt (talk) 11:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Number of interwikies? Not relevant in the slightest. Reliable sources? Does not mean it is
    notable. GiantSnowman 11:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • See other football awards. Not each award (very few numbers) has such press coverage as this. It is a main football award for goalkeepers. For example, The Guardian reporter mentions this award many years after polling. [1]. NickSt (talk) 11:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid claim to notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 12:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
It's not about the number of sources, but their significance. The sources listed in the article are routine sports journalism (i.e. not significant) and are about the individual players who have won the award as opposed to the award itself. Sir Sputnik (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you don't wait to see info about this award in political journalism. I am also. Of cource, sports sources are present for sports award. NickSt (talk) 13:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You could have 100 sources about something, but if they are basic and do not cover the subject in any great depth then they are worthless and would not meet GNG. GiantSnowman 13:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
See Category:Association football trophies and awards. Show me the article with more significant coverage (with exception of the Golden Ball, or course). NickSt (talk) 13:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS! GiantSnowman 13:34, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Unconstructive. Show me example of the similar article with not basic sources and which cover the subject in any great depth in your opinion. I want to look for. NickSt (talk) 13:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Try the
Ballon d'Or (1956–2009) or FIFA Ballon d'Or. Receive plenty of coverage, yea-after-year - this does not. GiantSnowman 13:54, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Repeatedly: (with exception of the Golden Ball, or course). Maybe
National Footballer of the Year}}. Tell me please your opinion, what articles from this category we must delete, and what to keep. And why? NickSt (talk) 14:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Nick, for God's sake, please understand - other articles existing and potentially being non-notable does NOT mean that this article is notable! GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Giant, of course, I understand it. But I write such articles and I need to understand what sport awards are notable and what is not. Give me answer to my question: What articles from this category we must delete, and what to keep. And why? NickSt (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and Salt per last discussion, particularly pertinent the comment "nothing more than the presentation of a series of lists published by an independent organisation on their website" by user Suriel1981. I should add that per
    WP:GNG "coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion". C679 14:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Previous AfD was for a topic on the same subject, as we can see from the title of the deletion discussion. The article in its current state is without doubt two lists with the added prose that it is awarded every January. The fact that The Guardian give it a trivial mention and the Buenos Aires Herald have reported the winner in one year does little more than corroborate the most recent winner and establish no basis for an article here. C679 16:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is a main award for goalkeepers in the world. Tomorrow I will write another article about sports awards and you will say "not notable". Give me the explanation of the borders between notable and non-notable sports awards from
    National Footballer of the Year}}? Or not? NickSt (talk) 17:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • No, the previous AfD was on the exact same (non-notable) subject. GiantSnowman 14:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, previous AfD was for another big voting list without secondary sources. Now such sources are present in the article.
    Real Madrid website, RSSSF and so on. NickSt (talk) 14:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment -
    WP:STICK. GiantSnowman 15:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment I was
    canvassed for my opinion here [2], along with others who expressed a keep opinion at another AfD. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Delete and salt, not notable. GregJackP Boomer! 22:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and salt but Oppose G4 - G4'ing this is just going to buy us more time-wasting pain when such a deletion inevitably ends up at
    WP:DRV. There are "sources" where previously none existed which calls into question any suggestion that the article is "sufficiently identical and unimproved". We should debate the validity of those sources here, sure, but I don't think G4 is a good idea. On the article itself, a simplified list article - winners of the ... - might serve to support the parent article in a functional sense, with the award itself explained in the parent organisation article. But an article about the award itself doesn't seem justified. That is, without substantially improved sources. Most of them seem to be coverage of individuals who have won the award in question. There are plenty of notable organisations that give awards to notable people. The organisations are notable, the people are notable but the awards aren't really notable in their own right, in my opinion, unless they have received significant coverage in their own right. Stalwart111 22:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Yes, was aware of that DRV (I commented there, too) which is what I was getting at (in a round-about way) with my suggestion that certain people might have an appetite for running to DRV if it is G4'd. Better to build a solid consensus (I thought) and be done with it (
    including seasoning). It seems all too easy to claim "sufficient difference" (despite admin confirmation of similarity/sameness) in cases where there "'might" be some and such an excercise would be a massive waste of time. I was willing to AGF and supported userfication/recreation but it seems my faith was misplaced. To be clear, my opposition to G4 is not on the basis that I think the article should be kept instead; rather that I think it might allow a way back in and I would rather see this done with. Stalwart111 04:41, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment -
    WP:ANI. C679 08:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Absolutely no suggestion Bald Zebra has acted inappropriately. The concern is that he was canvassed alongside the other two users who !voted "keep" in the other AfD (I think this is what you mean by the "invite list") and I think it's worthwhile to note that here. C679 08:50, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • For sure! Just didn't want anyone to misinterpret said worthwhile note (formatted as a comment after Zebra's !vote) as a criticism of Zebra, which didn't seem the intention. All good! Stalwart111 09:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of those references are notes of somebody receiving the award. Do any of them constitute "subtanstial coverage" of the award itself? - The Bushranger One ping only 10:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Not a single above delete vote has a valuable rational attached to it. The opinion of lack of notablility was dismissed through sourcing and the appeals to authority are meaningless. There are many other similar sporting awards with articles, and as the essay
    WP:OSE states that "these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes.". Being that there is no reason to delete this article, I suggest it not be deleted. Sepsis II (talk) 21:54, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Eh, I'd say it has some notability as seen by the variety of sources, though really, this AfD is only about whether this award deserves its own page as if deleted the information will re-appear in the mother organization's article. Can I ask that someone make all the tables on the IFFHS's page collapsed? If all the tables are collapsed perhaps length wouldn't be an issue and a redirect to the re-created subsection could be agreeable to all? Sepsis II (talk) 01:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also true. And as I said in my original note above - this might have been better as a list of people who have won the award, rather than an article about the award, with content about the award itself on the parent page. Not sure if a collapsed list would be
WP:MOS-compliant but it seems like a sensible idea on the face of it. Stalwart111 02:52, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.
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