Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kalvan series

@Cunard Hmmm. Interesting. That said, at minimum, a merger with Paratime series would makes sense, unless you think the sources sugges those two series both have stand-alone notability? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:45, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am open to a merger of Kalvan series and Paratime series as there is a lot of overlap but am not familiar enough with the two topics to know whether there are good reasons to keep them separate. Cunard (talk) 06:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cunard Since right now it looks plausible this article (Kalvan series) will be kept, could I trouble you to do a source review for the Paratime series and present the findings on the talkpage of that article, to inform us if merge is a good idea or if that other series has stand-alone notability separate from this one? Right now I still feel that one page about those two series will be enough. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cunard -- Much thanks for adding solid facts in place of Piotrus's sometimes problematic and tendentious edits. Unfortunately, my skills are simply not in the area of bibliography, but I can appreciate the work of those who do have such skills. I'm not absolutely opposed to merging this with "Paratime series", but it should be kept in mind that the Kalvan timeline is just one world within the Paratime multiverse (though since the 1980s, I guess it could be said that the Kalvan tail has been wagging the Paratime dog). AnonMoos (talk) 23:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph T. Major in the linked PDF file really didn't like the Kalvan sequels, but he mentioned a "Hostigos Con, held in Lord Kalvan Country at Penn State on June 10-12, 1988" (which I never knew about), that might add to the series' notability... AnonMoos (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• KEEP as the Kalvan series is a clear and distinct series of books by several authors over several decades, but it is separate enough from the
  Kalvan (Calvin Morrison) into a new "Characters" section of the page), but that doesn't justify deleting the page when the series exists and has been referenced in independent, reliable sources as listed above. -- Imperator3733 (talk) 04:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to consider new sources in the discussion and also the suggestion of Merge that was buried here in the comments. It doesn't look like there is support for straight-out deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Responding to Piotrus (talk · contribs)'s request above, the Paratime series has received significant coverage in reliable sources. Both the Kalvan series and the Paratime series are notable. I express no opinion about whether Paratime series and Kalvan series should be merged or kept separate under the "editors should consider how best to help readers understand it" standard from Wikipedia:Notability#Whether to create standalone pages. The guideline notes:

  When creating new content about a notable topic, editors should consider how best to help readers understand it. Often, understanding is best achieved by presenting the topic on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so; at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context (and doing so in no way disparages the importance of the topic). Editorial judgment goes into each decision about whether or not to create a separate page, but the decision should always be based upon specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable, and not merely upon personal likes or dislikes.

  Here are sources about the Paratime series (which I am also copying to Talk:Paratime series):
  1. ISBN 0-87338-683-3. Retrieved 2023-07-22 – via Internet Archive
     .

     The book notes: "H. Beam Piper's Paratime sequence of stories is collected in Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen (1965) and Paratime (1981), both of which are made up of short stories or novelettes originally published in science fiction magazines from the late 1940s until 1965 (Piper killed himself in 1964). ... In "Time Crime," the Paratime Police investigate a cross-belt Paratime slave trade, fixing the home time line of the slaves by close hypnotic questioning of the captured slaves, ferreting out which slaves came from a world where a woman killed herself and which came from a world where she was captured alive. ... The stories in Paratime do not focus on any one alternate world but explore a number of them; my favorite is "Last Enemy," which takes place in the Akor-Neb civilization, a Second Level civilization in which reincarnation is a fact. ... Piper's Paratime works, like Poul Anderson's Time Patrol works discussed in chapter 7, create worlds policed by a force charged with protecting its own identity and keeping that identity secret. The culture that created the Paratime Police exploits the alternate time lines it can reach, treating these other worlds as endless sources of raw materials and other resources while upholding strict codes that do not allow anyone to reveal the secret to others. ... Piper discusses the simultaneity of the people inhabiting the worlds only briefly; in "Police Operation," a guard examines Verkan Vall's blood under a microscope to make sure he is the right Verkan Vall. ..."

  2. Fletcher, Marilyn P.; Thorson, James L., eds. (1989). Reader's Guide to Twentieth-century Science Fiction. Chicago:
     ISBN 0-8389-0504-8. Retrieved 2023-07-22 – via Internet Archive
     .

     The book notes: "The Paratime series has for its settings some parallel time-line to Earth in which a civilization is based on Mars. The Martians are descendants of terran colonists who have had to survive after a nuclear war destroys Earth. The survivors discover the "Ghaldron-Hesthor Transposition Field" which facilitates travel between parallel time lines (hence the name para-time, or paratime). This leaves a lot of room for playing "what if" history, in which Piper shows himself to be an expert, recombining historical events and coming up with new and fascinating variations of what might have happened if.... Whether a story is part of the Paratime or Future History series, Piper's plots rely on the self-sufficient human."

  3. Barron, Neil; Barton, Tom; Burst, Daniel S.; Hudak, Melissa; Meredith, D. R.; Ramsdell, Kristin; Schantz, Tom; Schantz, Enid (2002). What Do I Read Next?, 2000: A Reader's Guide to Current Genre Fiction, Volume 2. Detroit, Michigan:
     ISSN 1052-2212. Retrieved 2023-07-22 – via Internet Archive
     .

     The book notes: "Summary: All of the stories in Piper's Paratime series lare collected in this omnibus volume. The Paratime Police travel through time to prevent anyone from changing the course of history. Generally they find discrepancies and have to act to restore the original time track. The stories were originally published between 1948 and the 1960s."

  4. Rogers, Alva (1964). A Requiem for Astounding.
     ISBN 0-911682-08-2. Retrieved 2023-07-22 – via Internet Archive
     .

     The book notes on pages 163-164: "H. Beam Piper, in the July issue, began his popular Paratime series with a novelette, "Police Operation." ... "Police Operation," and the other stories in the series had to do with a highly organized and complex police force operating in paratime, across probable time lines. The primary purpose of the paratime police is to police the multidinous probable time lines at all levels in an effort to keep them separated and unknowing of each other and if, as occasionally happens, something or someone from one time line appears in another the Paratime Police show up to take care of the problem as quietly as possible, and to take corrective action to restore reasonable normality and to provide an acceptable explanation of the event."

     The book notes on page 164: "The Paratime Police stories were entertaining tales not intended to be taken too seriously which provided one possible answer to such Fortean mysteries as unexplained disappearances, strange visitations, apparent violations of natural physical laws, etc. Piper admittedly got his idea for the Paratime Police from Charles Fort: "...there may be something in the nature of an occult police force, which operates to divert human suspicions, and to supply explanations that are good enough for whatever, somewhat in the nature of minds, human beings have-or that, if there be occult mischief makers and occult ravagers, they may be of a world also of other beings that are acting to check them, and to divert suspicions from themselves, because they, too, may be exploiting life upon this earth, but in ways more subtle, and in orderly, or organized fashion." (Charles Fort: Lo!)"

  5. Espley, John L. (Summer 1980). "H. Beam Pipier: An Annotated Biography". Extrapolation: 172, 175–177. Retrieved 2023-07-22 – via Internet Archive.

     The article notes on page 172: "The majority of Piper's stories are represented in the Paratime Police series and one Future History series. The Paratime Police stories have the theme of parallel worlds. Piper used this theme to answer some of the unexplained phenomena described by Charles Fort. The Future History stories are the description of the rise, fall, and rise again of galactic civilization. Using this background, Piper wrote some of his most memorable stories and books."

     The book notes on pages 175-176: ""Last Enemy." Astounding, August 1950, pp. 5-60. The last enemy is death. A Paratime Police story in which Verkan Vall has to rescue a scientist investigating reincarnation. Since reincarnation is a proven fact, death holds no fears and assassination is an honorary profession. ... "Police Operation." Astounding, July 1948, pp. 8-35. The first of the Paratime Police stories. There is a large amount of explanation about the Paratime theory with a minor plot concerning Verkan Vall hunting for an extraterrestrial animal in an alternate world where it is unknown. ... "Temple Trouble." Astounding, April 1951, pp. 6-34. A Paratime Police story in which the exploitation of the alternate world is controlled through the organized religions. The plot is concerned with conflicts created by the decline of the Paratime-supported religion."

     The book notes on page 177: ""Time Crime." Astounding, February and March 1955, pp. 8-49, 85-131. A serial concerning the Paratime Police discovering the existence of a large criminal organization of their own First Probability Level people. 1053"

  6. Foote, Bud (2003). "Escape into Paratime: H. Beam Piper's Alternated Pennsylvanias". In Slusser, George; Barricelli, Jean-Pierre (eds.). Genre at the Crossroads: The Challenge of Fantasy. Riverside, California:
     ISBN 1-879378-48-5
     . Retrieved 2023-07-22.

     The book notes: "In the very next year, however, Piper began work on a concept of multiple presents which was totally to dwarf the modest trilineal system of "Time and Time Again." Though he was to work at the paratime concept through four short stories and a novel fixed up out of three others' over a period of sixteen years, the scheme seems pretty thoroughly developed in 1948 in the first paratime story, "Police Operation." Some 75,000 to 100,000 years ago, Piper's scenario has it, the Martians, having exhausted their planet with overpopulation and over-industrialization, colonized Earth, which was occupied by no life higher than ape-men. All the possible results of this colonization have come to pass, on one level of probability or anther; and all these levels of probability, the number of which Piper fixes at 10^100,000, are equally real."

  7. ISBN 0-345-25452-X. Retrieved 2023-07-22.

     The book notes on page 112: "In July, H. Beam Piper began a series of stories with "Police Operation," based on an assumption that time not only goes forward and backward but also sidewise; beside our world are an infinity of other worlds in which events have not proceeded quite the same. Those nearby are almost identical, but those farther away differ greatly. One world has learned to traverse through this "paratime" and to exploit other worlds and cultures. But in doing so, the rulers must police all the worlds and prevent any accidental discovery of the secret by others. This permitted Piper to use almost any setting or culture for his background without step- ping out of his basic situation, and the stories were usually excellent."

     The book notes on page 172: "And in August, H. Beam Piper had a Paratime story, "Last Enemy," in which a world gains positive proof that any man can be reincarnated. It is one of Piper's best stories."

     The book notes on page 324

     : "Paratime: H. Beam Piper's universe in which time extends not only forward and backward, but crosswise, with many earths lying side by side, like pages in a book. Each earth differs slightly from the others; thus a panorama of histories is available for exploiting by those who can travel through paratime."

  8. Thesing, William B. (1981). "H. Beam Piper". In Cowart, David; Wymer, Thomas L. (eds.). Dictionary of Literary Biography. Volume 8: Twentieth-century American Science-fiction Writers. Ann Arbor, Michigan:
     ISBN 0-8103-0918-1. Retrieved 2023-07-22 – via Internet Archive
     .

     The book notes: "In about half of these short stories Piper develops the "paratime" concept with special emphasis placed on the necessity of policing across alternate worlds. Piper's paratime idea is based on the imaginative conception that there are at any given instant (not in the future or in the past) lateral time dimensions-worlds of alternate probability parallel to our own. Although there could conceivably be an infinity of such worlds, in his stories Piper posits the existence of five, which he calls Time Levels. Lateral time-travelers, then, make corresponding shifts in time. "Police Operation" (1948) alternates between descriptions of an adventurous hunt for an elusive monster and explanations of the various levels of time-travel. In "Time Crime" (1955) the paratime police search out criminals who attempt to meddle with the timetracks. Alternate historical outcomes during the Napoleonic Wars are the focus of "He Walked Around the Horses" (1948). The two stories "Gunpowder God" (1964) and "Down Styphon!" (1965) were expanded to form 'Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen (1965)."

  Cunard (talk) 23:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Cunard Thank you. Looking at the first set of references and quotes you provided here few days ago, each and every singe one of them mentioning the Paratime series, I think merge and redirect to Paratime, which we could then expand with the sources you found, would make the most sense. @Rorshacma, as you commented before most refs were posted here? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I have no objection with Paratime series being the target for the Redirect/Merge. But any actually Merging from this article would be pretty light though, as, again, almost the entire bulk of this article is just in-universe plot information. The information from the sources found by Cunard in this AFD can be integrated into that article, though, of course. Rorshacma (talk) 02:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cunard -- Thanks again. However, the person who wrote the following sentences was rather confused, or didn't even bother to read the book, so that source should definitely not be used! -- "The Paratime Police travel through time to prevent anyone from changing the course of history. Generally they find discrepancies and have to act to restore the original time track." -- AnonMoos (talk) 11:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge/Redirect as the evolving compromise. It's still unclear if
  WP:ATD. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Comment (still holding previously-stated position of keep) Regarding the similarities/differences between the Paratime series and the Kalvan series, I think it's fair to compare their relationship to the relationship between the Nantucket and Emberverse series – both are related series, with several overlapping elements, but each tells a distinct story with a different primary focus. Similarly, the Paratime series focuses on the Paratime Police at large, while the Kalvan series focuses on one particular timeline. Both the Nantucket and Emberverse series have their own pages, so there is precedent for related series to still have separate pages. -- Imperator3733 (talk) 05:34, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I am okay with keep or merge to Paratime series. It's clear that both series meet GNG, but also that Kalvan is heavily dependent on Paratime. It seems likely a merged article could serve readers better, but someone with more knowledge may know better. I'm willing to use Cunard's sources to add a proper "reception" or similar section near the top of each, perhaps followed by heavily editing down the in-universe description, or at the very least updating the tagging. —siroχo 07:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Siroxo That would be great (improving articles). My reading of the sources found by Cunard suggests that they are primarily about the Paratime series, with only passing mentions of the Kalvan subseries, hence my preference for a merge. I don't mind being proven wrong, if one's (yours?) reading of the sources suggests both entities have stand-alone notability and it can be shown in their respective reception series. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:43, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Editors appear to be cohering around merge, but relisting as consensus could be clearer and there has been very recent discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:43, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep without merging. As Imperator3733 has noted, two series in the same semi-shared fictional universe can have their own articles. As someone who has read stories in both series, IMO they are sufficiently distinct enough to keep separate. The Lord Kalvan series is set in one specific alternate universe, while the Paratime series ranges all around. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:22, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge with
  WP:DUE weight, then it can certainly be covered on WP as part of a larger article. – sgeureka ^t•c 14:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.