Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of compositions for viola: A to B (2nd nomination)

Again, no prejudice against a Wikipedia list for viola compositions (when there are sources), but this needs a trim. In that case a suitable page, Viola repertoire, exists and can be renamed and expanded, and using the current "A–B" scheme as redirects would be unhelpful. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs, Music, and Lists. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I would expect the musical works to have the links, not the composers. It seems to be a strange list, you can only find out information about the composers, not the musical works. Which tells me most of the musical works aren't notable, so the list isn't needed. Oaktree b (talk) 23:18, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I find the closing comment on the previous nomination exceptionally poor. The lack of policy explanation by delete voters is cited as a reason to keep, but almost all of the keep votes are explicitly listed in

WP:ATA

. I'm gonna pre-emptively rebut all the terrible arguments made in the previous thread:

"It's been around for 15 years" -->

WP:LONGTIME

"It serves people learning the viola" -->

WP:ITSIMPORTANT

"

WP:LISTCRIT tells you to use common sense, and explicitly gives the example of "List of Norwegian musicians would not be encyclopedically useful if it indiscriminately included every garage band mentioned in a local Norwegian newspaper." as an example of this common sense. BrigadierG (talk) 00:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• Delete with extreme viola-nce. Far too
  WP:indiscriminate. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:17, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Delete twice for the excellent viola pun. Kazamzam (talk) 01:16, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. It has been said above that Music4Viola serves the purpose better - of course not, because it doesn't have what Wikipedia offers: the links to the composers. It has been said above that Viola repertoire serves as an overview of pieces for viola, - of course not, because it misses the more interesting pieces, those without article yet. Of course the list is not needed, but the same could be said about any article, - they all are written voluntarily, and read voluntarily. I see no harm, but a great resource for a few. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Let's refute some arguments: Wikipedia offers links to composers. That's such an incredibly weak feature to the list when looking up a composer takes less than a few seconds by highlighting the name and clicking "Open In New Tab" where Wikipedia is the top result. It lists pieces without an article. Obviously, red links are important and such to grow the project, but they should only be made if there is a chance of an article. That means there must be a bare minimum of some source. Most of the pieces and even most of the composers fail even the criteria of that. A

  WP:NOHARM. Why? I Ask (talk) 11:10, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  This is a textbook

  WP:NOHARM argument BrigadierG (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Delete all per
  WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE. Exact same reasoning as in the first nomination. Ajf773 (talk) 09:50, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep. Not indiscriminate per
  WP: NOTESAL. Compositions for viola as a collection have been discussed by multiple sources, including the previously mentioned Zeyringer and Music4Viola (as well as other sources). Attempts have been made to improve the article by adding citations (one of the requests from the earlier Deletion review). Further citations from other sources can be added (and additional articles for individual entries can be created), but I have been hesitant to invest the time and effort for fear that additional deletion attempts would be made (that fear seems to be well-founded). The lack of links to individual pieces does not reflect on the notability of an individual work, just that the community has not yet had time to create individual entries for these works. I do not view deleting or trimming this article as a reasonable means of improving it and continue to see value in retaining this article in its current format. I also view Viola repertoire as a complement to this article, not a replacement. Dbynog (talk) 20:10, 3 January 2023 (UTC)dbynog[reply
  ]

  No, it's pretty indiscriminate when it lists a few thousand pieces by non-notable composers. The sources provided simply prove that pieces verifiably exist; it doesn't make a case for inclusion per

  WP:NOTDIRECTORY still exists.) Why? I Ask (talk) 20:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Delete per nomination. I agree that notable pieces should be a part of Viola repertoire. No offence to any Viola players. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 01:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: As the previous AFD was the subject of a Deletion review, I'm going to be extra careful here and list the discussion for another week of debate or until an admin decides there is a consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:44, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Meets
  WP:LISTN "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." Compositions written for the viola have obviously been discussed a a genre of music. The list also acts as a navigation outline, as recognized type of list. The list has a definite and well defined criteria for inclusion.  // Timothy :: talk  11:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  @

  WP:LISTN where Viola repertoire serves as a navigation list for pages that are actually on Wikipedia. There's no need for the larger A—Z list where links are far between, spread across over five pages, rendering the point about navigation moot (less than 0.4% of the entries on the A—Z page have links). Also, what list of criteria is there? Simply being a piece for viola is not a criteria. Why? I Ask (talk) 14:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ASTIG️🎉 _{(HAPPY 2023)} 01:30, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The inclusion criteria seem a little loose; I'd restrict the list to composers who already have articles, but requiring each composition to be a blue link goes too far. But the fundamental concept seems solid.
  talk) 13:41, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  @XOR'easter I never said the pieces needed a blue link. I said a piece needs a valid citation that's not just a index of works. There's also no way that simply being a notable composer makes the pieces notable. Britta Byström or Georgy Firtich may be notable. Their one or two pieces for viola are not. We wouldn't have a list of works for orchestral works by notable composers for a similar reason. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  "Notability" is about whether articles should exist, not about what should be included within an article.

  talk) 16:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  If something's notable, that means there's at minimum a source about it: at least one. In which case, a piece can be added to Viola repertoire because there's a source and it doesn't just verifiably exist. Find me a single good citation for In the Kitchen by

  WP:LISTCRIT which explicitly says As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a directory, repository of links, or means of promotion, and should not contain indiscriminate lists, only certain types of lists should be exhaustive. Criteria for inclusion should factor in encyclopedic and topical relevance, not just verifiable existence. There you go. If you can find me that half of the pieces by even composers with blue links do more than verifiably exist, I'll withdraw my nomination. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:46, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Keep Meets
  WP:NLIST per above arguments. SBKSPP (talk) 01:33, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  That's still not an argument to keep, though? I already said it meets

  WP:NLIST. My issue is that there's two pages that duplicate information. Why? I Ask (talk) 01:37, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  It can be trimmed down per XOREaster's suggestion. It won't hurt. SBKSPP (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Trimmed down to what? In this case there's already a suitable, trimmed article (Viola repertoire) that can be expanded. What selection criteria would you prefer? Why? I Ask (talk) 01:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: So far in the keep votes, we have several arguments that either completey fail
  WP:NOHARM argument). That's better than what we have, but it's still not encyclopedic, because as I've noted, some pieces by small composers are so rare, this page is the first result when searching. I really hope the closing admin or future voters can be rationale because these reasons to keep frankly suck. Why? I Ask (talk) 12:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete all per
  WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE and that these lists dont really give us the insight they should.`~HelpingWorld~` ^(👽🛸) 06:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.