Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Both sides made valid points, and it would be hard to call this anything else. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 12:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mass killings under Communist regimes

AfDs for this article (as Communist genocide):
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)
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This article is entirely

synthesizes unconnected theories about Communist government in different countries not substantiated in any academic literature. It was originally created by banned editor Joklolk. The Four Deuces (talk) 01:10, 8 November 2009 (UTC) The Four Deuces (talk) 01:10, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]

I am not going to vote on this AfD this time around (though I feel I have every right to do so) but I do regard Four Deuces characterization of my self as "far right anti-Russian" as complete bullshit meant to influence the outcome of this AfD, and a direct personal attack (particularly since I consider "far right" to be a despicable political position).
talk) 01:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
I will also stay out of this one - no point in voting, since the result is given from the start (no consensus). I just want to note that if the nominator truly wants to build consensus around some kind of constructive improvement, s/he is going about it in a really bad way - nominating the article for deletion every other month is not likely to get people out of their entrenched positions. --Anderssl (talk) 02:24, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "every other month". Last nomination was a month and a half ago [1] (Sept 24). This is just tendentious and disruptive forum shopping, and should be rejected on those grounds alone.
talk) 02:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]

Delete I have been following this in the background since it was called Communist Genocide (see box above). Every AfD ended in no consensus with an attached promise to improve the article. As the comments by this AfD's nominator show, that hasn't happened apparently. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 01:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From above "The Black Book on Communism only conducts a multi-societal analysis of genocide in its deeply flawed foreword and introduction, where it claims Communism is Criminal and Not Christian (hard to believe, but true). This does not meet the academic standards of comparative sociology." Does this really have anything to do with
Mass killings under Communist regimes that they are irrelevant - just because you don't like them? Smallbones (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
While the Black Book presents a number of chapters on single country studies, it presents no cross-cultural comparison, there is no discussion of "Mass killing[/Any other bad thing] in Communism." The foreword contains one statement on generalised causes, Criminality, xvii-xviii, which is "they were criminal enterprises in their very essence." While I only quote a clause, this argument of cross cultural genocide studies is one sentence long. The introduction contains three paragraphs advocating a general cause, which comes down the violating a rights principle concept of social good as advocated by the Catholic Church. No mention of societies are made in this paragraph. The Afterword is worse, its a reprisal of the history of the soviet union with three paragraphs on China, with no analysis. Hard as it is to swallow, The Black Book on Communism is a miscellany, not an analysis. "The Soviet and Chinese killings were similar because...a Pope listed a series of human rights." is not an answer. "The Soviet and Chinese killings were similar because...here are unrelated and uncontextualised single country studies let down by a really poor introduction." is not an answer. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - notable subject and already reasonably referenced. The article still needs a lot of work including NPOVing but it is already useful Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep That a banned editor was involved is not a valid reason for deletion. There is a lot if "IDONTLIKEIT" above, but that also is not a valid reason for deltion. Lastly there is a "I don't like a source used" which is a valid reason for editing a topic, perhaps, but not a valid reason for deletion. Unless a WP valid reason for deletion is given, the article should be kept. Collect (talk) 01:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, well-source, notable article. Looks like it was nominated strictly for political reasons. --William S. Saturn (talk) 04:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, anti-Russian? Russia is not the USSR. Peltimikko (talk) 07:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. Do I need to join a mailing list to see the problem? The Black Book of Communism (Harvard University Press) together with the more specialised sources on specific killings seems to establish notability. Fifelfoo's synthesis complaint makes sense, but the article also cites a chapter "Communist mass killings: The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia" from a Cornell University Press book. Hans Adler 08:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Valentino? His argument is that there is no specifically communist feature except that this particular group in his actual category are communist. In his schema they're part of a category of politically motivated killings of outgroups by elites. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Another good point, thanks. In this case perhaps the article should reflect this. I am changing to weak keep because it's less clear to me now that we need this article. But I do think that it makes sense, not least per
    WP:SUMMARY, as it covers a common subtopic of Mass murder, Communism and Stalinism. Hans Adler 09:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Another good point? Contrary to Fifelfoo's opinions the source actually says exact opposite (p.91) "Communist regimes have been responsible for this century's most deadly episodes of mass killing, Estimates of the total number of people killed by communist regimes range as high as 110 million. In this chapter I focus primarily on mass killings in the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia- history's most murderous communist states. Communist violence in these three states alone may account for between 21 million and 70 million deaths. etc.". So from where exactly those Fifelfoo's interpretations come from, I have no idea. And do I need to mention that the facts from the source keep disappearing from the article.--Termer (talk) 04:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Care to quote his theoretical category describing the commonality? You haven't quoted a causal claim or category, you've quoted a list. His category isn't "communist mass killing," those three cases are communist examples of his real category. You won't find it in that subheading of the chapter, you'll find it in the broader chapter. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
category describing the commonality? No problem: (p.97) : "The strategic approach suggests that communist mass killings result from the effort to implement policies of radical social or economic transformation and to protect that transformation from real and perceived enemies."--Termer (talk) 06:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So is your suggestion to rename the article Mass killings and social transformation? csloat (talk) 07:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually csloat, I've let this sit for a couple of days while involved elsewhere, and will reply to Termer shortly, but your response is question begging and not really appropriate behaviour towards another editor. You should do what I shall do: quote from the Valentino sources. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as it's a very informative, and well-sourced article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This now sets a rate of one nomonation to delete every six weeks for this one article. I anticipate finding it for its 9th nomination with a year of the first - as this time it looks like a clear "keep', I suggest it be be precluded for relisting for six months at a minimum. Collect (talk) 11:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, since the subject is definitelty found in scholarly sources. However the article must be carefilly cleaned of original research and unnecessary massive duplication of the material. Each particular mass killing must be detailed in the corresponding wikipiedia article, and this general article must contain only brief summaries sufficient to serve as an example for the discourse. - Altenmann >t 17:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete simply because we already have articles where all of this information really belongs.
    WP:POV Fork. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep I concur with William S. Saturn that this article has been selected for deletion (several times) purely on political grounds. It's interesting to note that the far inferior Anti-communist mass killings article, which includes a controversial claim that the Nazi Holocaust qualifies as such, has not been nominated, and a wikilink to it is still included in the "see also" section of this article while other significant wikilinks pertaining to the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation are removed. Very interesting indeed.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 21:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Holy crap, I just read the lead of that article
talk) 23:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Not sure about poisoning wells. I think the communists killing the Polish soldiers in the
Wikipedia is not censored. - Yorkshirian (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The "anti-Russian" remark by the nominator is actually a reference to the
WP:SYNTH, and it would be utterly POV as well to have an article called Mass killings under capitalist regimes or Mass killings under reactionary regimes
.
Don't be surprised if one day you stumble upon Space exploration under communist regimes or Increases in life expectancy under communist regimes if you enjoy seeing articles like this. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this nonsense about a number of biased right-wing editors attacking left-wing and Russian editors by user PasswordUsername/Anti-Nationalist is complete bullshit which he is using to smear people he disagrees with (and yes, he does have a history of using this despicable tactic). I'm not "right wing" (unless you happen to think Obama is "right-wing", which, I mean, some people due - but per WP:Fringe...). I didn't attack anybody. And quite a number of Russian editors were just as appalled as I was by PasswordUsername/Anti-Nationalist's Neo-Stalinist and ... nationalist ... POV pushing on scores of articles by him and his tag team buddies.
talk) 02:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
In my opinion Anti-Nationalist is making a whole lot of sense. But on the other hand, hasn't the article been improved significantly in the few weeks since the last AfD? Particularly considering that working on this article is extremely slow and tedious given that every little point needs to be discussed over and over. I agree that there is lots of work to be done, but as far as I can see the article seems to be moving in the right direction. --Anderssl (talk) 07:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting and good point. The problem is that with the exception of Termer's quote above (which I'm yet to verify, I've got the other Valentino paper at home, but haven't managed to get the introduction of the book yet... won't until Monday) the sources quoted are either FRINGE or don't actually theorise any cause, or explicitly claim the cause is greater than, or less than, communism. I feel the article was slowly moving towards a point where it would stall and be ready for deletion of the COATRACK with a move of a rather good theoretical piece to merge into genocide. The nomination was early, and not informed by the state of debate on the article. Fifelfoo (talk) 07:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am starting to lean towards your point of view - move the best material to genocide and delete this one. But yes I do think this AfD (as the previous one) was premature and kind of obnoxious, to be honest. --Anderssl (talk) 00:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can follow the link to
WP:EEML and see if Radeksz was a member of this very peculiar group. Enough said. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 16:44, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Nice try at weaseling there PasswordUsername. You know very well that what is at issue is not the membership of the list but your false characterization of it and your vicious smears of some people on it. But you do have a history with making offensive and false accusations, right?
talk) 20:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
McCarthyist attacks on me warrant no response on my behalf. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Quit smearing people and lying shamelessly. I am not making "McCarthyist attacks". I am pointing out that in the past you have made completely unfounded accusations against some editors, found out that these accusations were completely false, and yet continued to refuse to back down and apologize. This kind of behavior here is just par for the course for you. I'm not going to sit around and let you spread lies and falsehoods about me.
talk) 21:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Link to ArbCom case of interest:
WP:EEML. I do encourage independent reading of it. Have a nice day and prosperous life, Radeksz. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Keep. The connecting concept that links these communist regimes with mass killing, as stated in the lede, is the revolutionary desire to engineer radical social transformation that inevitably leads to abrupt and almost total material and political dispossession of millions of people, leading to hardship and death on a scale unprecedented in history. Benjamin Valentino articulates this concept in his published works, as does
    talk) 09:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Questions if this is closed as Keep, can it be afd'd again for any reason, or for the same reasons? Is there a limit on the number of times, or the frequency of afding? If there is no limit, is there a historical record, and are we approaching it? Note that this article has been subject not just to afd's, but also to name changes, and extensive removal of reliable sources. In summary, is there a way to stop the nonsense regarding this article, here and elsewhere? Smallbones (talk) 15:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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