Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Plot of Les Misérables

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was IAR delete. Most "keep" arguments hinge on

WP:ATA. I close this with no prejudice towards expanding the section in the main article, transwiki of contents, etc. —Kurykh 01:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Plot of Les Misérables

Plot of Les Misérables (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log
)

Violation of

WP:NOT#PLOT. Masaruemoto 01:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

I've done a little more looking around: Wikipedia has a whole category on Les Miserables, for crying out loud. With three subcategories for the books, plays and six movie adaptations based on the book. We have about a dozen between two and three dozen articles in all, with only one or two of them more important than this one for an understanding of the novel. And doesn't the play take, what, four hours? Five hours? Six hours to run? There's a reason for all this. It might be that there are a lot of readers interested in an article going into the plot in more detail.Noroton 03:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC) (edited to get the correct amount of articles on Les Mis Noroton 04:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • In looking at some of those other articles, frankly, a bunch of them ought to be deleted or merged too. The stage musical adaptation is certainly notable but every song from the musical isn't and the entire contents of the songs subcategory should be deleted. Pointing toward other Miz-cruft doesn't justify this article, which is again a blatant policy violation, existing. Otto4711 15:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How sad: You're saying that you support having an article on a musical but (as your vote shows below) you would delete this article, which is so important to the better understanding of an important subject, and all because one meets a bureaucratic rule and another doesn't meet another bureaucratic rule. You're letting adherence to bureaucratic rules hurt Wikipedia, a classic situation to which
WP:IAR is supposed to apply, for the better protection of Wikipedia, which your adherence to these rules would trivialize into something pretty philistine. You argue your point well, and that's helped me to try to refine mine. Please see my comment at 00:52, 6 July 2007, below. Noroton 01:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Why yes, I do support having an article on the musical adaptation of Les Miz, because the musical adaptation of Les Miz is notable. I would not support having an article devoted to a minutely detailed plot summary of the musical adaptation of Les Miz, because such an article would be a plain violation of
WP:NOT. Sorry if you find that sad. I find your "sadness" and your general attitude patronizing. Otto4711 01:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
You're a regular in deletion discussions. Somehow I think your skin is thick enough to endure any "patronizing" from me. Rather than get in a huff and ignore my objections, you could instead address them, but you haven't. Noroton 02:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your objections amount to, basically "Les Mis is really important" and "this article violates policy but let's overlook that and keep it anyway." Your objections have been dealt with, repeatedly, in probably thousands of AFD discussions. Otto4711 02:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And your response amounts to, basically, saying "I don't care how important the narrative of Les Mis is, it violates a Wikipedia rule to have an article on it, so we must delete it." Your description of my argument still wasn't answering the objection, and neither is waving your hand at other deletion discussions. If the "save" arguments here have been destroyed elsewhere then it should be easy to use those arguments from other deletion discussions here. Noroton 21:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay settle down, both of you. I'm not picking sides, nor will I be seen taking sides but this is a debate about the article, not a critique of each other. -WarthogDemon 04:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, each of us is critiquing arguments, not personalities, but it's not leading anywhere so I'll stop. Noroton 04:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • IAR Keep Merging into Les Mis will really bloat the article. It's a decent offshoot from the main article. I've never pulled the IAR card, but I agree with Noroton. the_undertow talk 04:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletions. —Noroton 03:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or reduce and Merge - is every classic work of literature exempt from WP:NOT now? War and Peace is a huge book, but the editors have managed to keep that article to a reasonable length. I sense some intellectual snobbery here, if this was the equivalent article about the "Plot of the Harry Potter series" people would be throwing WP:NOT all over the place, even though more readers would be interested in Harry Potter and it's had a larger impact on culture. Crazysuit 05:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Crazysuit. A classic novel is no less subject to
    WP:NOT than a popular children's novel or an animated series. Articles that are solely plot summary are not at all encyclopedic - when it comes to fictional works, real-world impact is the most important thing to document, which an in-universe retelling of a fictional plot by nature would not have. Any impact the plot of Les Misérables has had on the real world is already documented at the main Les Misérables article. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 05:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Delete per nom. The plot summary in the main article is quite detailed enough. When Coles Notes takes over Wikipedia, this article can return. Clarityfiend 06:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete Blatant violation of
    WP:NOT - "A brief plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic, but not as a separate article. " Corpx 07:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Let's turn the question around: If we're just here to follow bureaucratic regulation, you don't need discussions: We can just have administrators delete. The rules and guidelines concerning plots really are seriously messed up, and I will look into changing them. But no matter how you vote, you've got to admit that we're tightening the screws hard on a valuable topic while the sheer volume of articles on unserious or miniscule topics is unchecked. Serious topics like this one deserve serious coverage. We're making Wikipedia trivial.Noroton 08:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I object to this article because of the minute detail to which it descends. Who really needs to know that Valjean's sentence was extended "three additional years for each of four escape attempts, and two more for resisting arrest following the second attempt." Who cares a sou that he stole exactly 40 of them from a boy? I am reminded of A Tale of Two Cities, which was at one time similarly bloated; it went so far as to tell the reader exactly which floor of a building a character was on at one unimportant point! Fortunately that was reined in, and so should this example. The main article describes the plot quite well and concisely. You accuse us of being bureaucrats, but they are the ones most likely to try to puff up the importance of something by loading it down with minutia. Clarityfiend 14:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem with instant deletion is that these articles have usually been up for a while and a lot of users have made contributions to it. An administrator just wiping it all out just like that doesnt seem fair (to me).
    WP:FICT describes plot summaries as "Plot summaries are kept reasonably short, as the point of Wikipedia is to describe the works, not simply to summarize them." I dont think it is an encyclopedia's place to go through chapter-by-chapter (or episode-by-episode) and describe the happenings of a book or tv show. If it were up to me, I would keep the above mentioned plot summaries to less than 10 sentences. Corpx 08:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]

*Delete and merge -

Romeo & Juliet. Cool Bluetalk to me 13:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

On second thought, I'm going to have to pull an
IAR keep, too. I agree with the undertow. Cool Bluetalk to me 13:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • I disagree. If we let this article be an exception to the plot summaries due to IAR, then all the tv show plot summary people will invoke the same rule in those articles' defense, which in effect renders the "no plot summaries" rule unenforceable. Corpx 00:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It's a freakin' Cliff Notes. If the article were more about critical reaction, discussion, debate, etc. regarding specific parts of the plot, I'd probably feel differently, but AFAIK, there's no policy supporting an article like this for every chapter of every piece of classic literature. If someone wants to save it, move it to a Geocities site.Propaniac 15:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless I missed the part of
    Arkyan • (talk) 15:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Arkyan, you've completely missed the point of
WP:ILIKEIT has nothing to do with arguing that something is of recognized excellence. The justification of the plot article is that we should treat Les Mis with an article just on its plot because this ultra-notable novel has an ultra-long plot. Feel free to be a slave to bureaucratic rules. I'm challenging you and everyone here to justify the value of the bureaucratic rule in this case, which seems to me a harder thing to do than to justify an article on the plot of Les Mis. Noroton 00:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Actually, the "A" in
WP:NOT, as one of those rules included in "All" because WPL:NOT can work as a rule -- if IAR works for rules, it works for guidelines, suggestions, definitions, everything. Here's the entire text of WP:IAR, which I think is useful to review: "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore them." Now, why would this rule be so hallowed if it wasn't meant to be used now and then? Noroton 23:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:WIARM. Jay32183 23:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Please review points 2, 3, 4 and 6 under "What Ignore the rules does mean. I think those all apply here. I see nothing we're doing here, in a consensus-based forum with a specific mandate for deciding on whether to keep or delete an article that would misinterpret
WP:IAR, but perhaps you could point out something I missed. Noroton 00:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
The thing you have missed is that you have not presented a valid argument for why the article should be kept and you are attempting to use
WP:IAR" is not a valid argument. Jay32183 00:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Please see first paragraph labeled "Comment" below, because it addresses this point and a point made elsewhere in this discussion. Noroton 00:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Although I agree that some information about the plot should be in the main Les Miserables article (which I believe there already is),
    Wikipedia is not SparkNotes™, and that's essentially what this article is. My gut feeling is that this may be a copyvio, couldn't find anything to affirm that, tho. Rackabello 22:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
There is no copyvio of a work first published in the 1860s. Wikipedia has a template for works (in the United States, at least) published before 1923.Noroton 23:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If the text of a public domain work is being copied exactly, it belongs on Wikisource, not Wikipedia. Jay32183 23:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see even quote in the plot summary article, does anyone? Noroton 23:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think he's saying that it's a copyvio of Les Mis, but rather of a Cliff Notes or SparkNotes-type book that would contain such a plot summary. That may just mean that enough effort's been put in that it reads like a professional job, but that's still not grounds for keeping it. Confusing Manifestation 00:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't every encyclopedia worth its salt overlap to a degree with Cliff's Notes, Spark Notes, etc? And I repeat, those booklets are longer and more detailed than our articles. We can, you know, create the encyclopedia we want (and we have and we do, all the time). We have permission to do that.Noroton 23:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC) (add additional sentences. Noroton 23:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Since the book is out of copyright, would it justify us putting the entire text up on wikipedia and let the readers come up their own interpretation to the meanings etc? Corpx 01:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's really not necessary for you to go to all of that trouble, as a link to the full text is already in the main article. ;) the_undertow talk 03:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to les Miserables.--JForget 00:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Based on comments from Otto and Jay 32183, among others, my thinking on this is (I hope) becoming a bit more refined. Here's my concise, slightly retooled argument: Les Mis is not only without question notable itself, but it is so notable that Wikipedia should give it the same extended coverage that other subjects get in which we have multiple articles, some taking on aspects of those subjects. To adequately cover Les Mis, with its enormous length and convoluted plot (something it is known for) you need an extensive plot summary, one which would overwhelm the main article if included there. The fact that Wikipedia has a rule on plots should not prevent us from adjusting, violating or making an exception to that rule (describe it however you will) in a way that protects Wikipedia from becoming damaged. And make no mistake, for Wikipedia to cover Les Mis inadequately because of some bureaucratic rule, damages Wikipedia. And
    WP:IAR gives us a mandate to ignore rules which, in a particular case, hurt Wikipedia. (Full text: "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore them.") We damage Wikipedia if we don't cover big subjects adequately, we improve Wikipedia when we do. Noroton 00:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
You're scoring debating points by exploiting chinks in my language, not addressing the issues. Your position so far is to simply ignore what's important out there in the world Wikipedia is supposed to cover. I don't see any arguments that Les Miserables is not important enough to have an article on its plot. Instead your arguments concentrate solely on applying bureaucratic rules that don't deserve to be worshiped as sacred. In fact, the delete argument here so far has simply been to apply rules, to the detriment of the encyclopedia. I've argued that we have a broader duty here than just applying rules. Noroton 02:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And your argument hinges upon the supposition that literary works that are "important enough" should have plot summary articles. I'm not going to poke fun at this argument but it's no stronger than Otto's arguments based on a strict reading of the rules. If anything I would say his argument is on stronger grounds - it's based on a policy that has been written and refined rather than an invented supposition. I would agree with you wholeheartedly that we do indeed have a broader duty as editors than simply reading and applying rules, but nevertheless when
Arkyan • (talk) 14:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
"What is the reasoning given here?" The reasons have peppered the discussion top to bottom: The novel is of uncontested importance, the plot, which is important in itself, is unusually long and complex and to adequately describe it takes more space than merely part of an overall article. Three or six or 10 paragraphs fails to capture enough of the substance for anyone truly interested in finding out more on the subject. What is unsound in this reasoning? We usually resolve questions of the "importance" of a subject by the standard of notability: multiple, independent, reliable sources giving substantial coverage to the subject. As I've said elsewhere in this discussion, we have those sources. "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia", you say, but just as important, Wikipedia is an enormous electronic encyclopedia that can cover many times more articles than a regular encyclopedia, so one DOES expect to find many, many more articles in this encyclopedia than in any other, as you well know. Train stations, lighthouses, neighborhoods, high schools -- you would expect none of these in nearly all encyclopedias, and yet all are here, consensus won't allow deletion of most of them, and it would be hard to make the case that any of these articles covers a subject of more importance to our readers than this plot summary. There is nothing particularly unencyclopedic in plot summaries per se. We have them all over the place in Wikipedia. Noroton 05:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really dont like this safety blanket. If you disagree with a policy, start an initiative to change it instead of claiming
    WP:IAR votes here, with 12 Delete votes, which is far from a consensus. Corpx 03:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment On second thought, I would not support the revision of the article as I have mentioned it, because it would just be a regurgitation of what is (or would be potentially good content) on the main Les Mis article - societal impact, allusions to other works, historical significance, and so on. My opinion to delete it stands.
talk.contribs 17:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Little Cosette, by now eight years old, is sent out to the forest by Madame Thénardier to fetch water on Christmas Eve. She is alone and afraid in the dark, when a man helps her carrying her bucket home. He takes lodging in the Thénardiers' inn, not taking his eyes from Cosette. He spares her a few punishments from Madame Thénardier, pays five francs so that she needn't work and even buys her a magnificent doll.

God knows that nobody could possibly have any sort of conversation about Les Mis without being cognizant of what precise errand Cosette was doing in the forest and how much the stranger paid Madame Thénardier. Propaniac 15:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's an amusing point, Propaniac, but most of the article isn't that detailed and if the article were a third of its present length it would not contain that level of detail, yet it would still be too big to fit into the main article, so your quote is beside the point. I think your other point, that the article lacks criticism and discussion of the plot, is interesting, but the first place that discussion should appear is in the main article. Only if that discussion gets too long should it go into a separate article, possibly this one or possibly its own article. This article does not do a lot of things (for instance, if it were a ham sandwich, I could eat it for lunch, which is equally beside the point). Noroton 21:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's been no evidence presented that the much, much shorter summary at the main article does not meet the needs of an encyclopedia. Also, the dispersement of information across multiple articles should not be simply about length; by that logic, if an article gets too long we could just chop it anywhere. Articles should be generally self-contained. By creating a separate article for the plot, you are asserting that the plot is a distinct topic with its own notability, and therefore any information supporting that notability--such as proof that the plot has been discussed and referred to on its own terms--should be contained in the article dedicated to the plot. Propaniac 03:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Notability of the plot is established, under WP:Notability as multiple, reliable, independent sources with substantial coverage of the subject of an article. The link User:JulesH already provided on 15:44, 6 July to the Amazon page shows four published sources that focus on the plot or at the very least offer substantial coverage of the plot. Therefore the plot itself, as a subject considered separately from the novel, meets Wikipedia notability standards for subjects of articles. We can certainly add a sentence or two at the top asserting notability by using those books and, I'm sure, many more sources, although I'm not really sure that helps the reader.Noroton 04:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The Les Misérables article contains a more-than-adequate plot summary. An encyclopedia article covering the plot of a work of fiction should briefly describe the plot (even summarizing it usually isn't crucial, since the important thing is that people understand it's a redemption story about a criminal at its core). What the article should do is discuss the plot and its siginificance, not summarize it. The purpose of this article, however, is to simply retell the story in Wikipedia format. As such, it's not encyclopedic by itself. Leebo T/C 16:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and fix
    WP:NOT#PLOT, with which it conflicts. Articles on plots should be discouraged, but not banned. Clearly warranted for this opus and a very few others.--Mantanmoreland 19:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
At this point, we're suggesting using
WP:IAR to make an exception to a rule, so in each future deletion discussion the precedent would have to be argued anew. I don't think it's a big deal. DGG's last post, above, and his addition to the bottom of the article suggests that we could assert notability by pointing to multiple, reliable sources that themselves give substantial coverage to the subject of the plot. The Cliffs Notes, Sparks Notes and two other "Notes" books cited by JulesH at 15:44, 6 July would be a way of providing some limitation to plot summaries, using WP:Notability. How many literary works are covered by more than one of these kinds of books -- 200? 400? Maybe we should insist on something more. Anyway, what exactly is the objection to having a ton of plot summaries in this huge encyclopedia? Noroton 22:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • The "what exactly is the objection to have this article in this huge encyclopedia?" argument sounds awfully similar to "Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be about
    everything?" Jay32183 23:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Yes, it is. A basic plot summary is a core part of encyclopedic coverage of a fictional subject, with the amount of plot summary necessary being proportional to the complexity of the work. Les Mis is not only really long and complicated, but one of the more important fictional works of all time. A split-off of the plot summary is therefore completely justified for stylistic reasons as a sub-article. That, as Deckiller notes, the plot of the work is probably an encyclopedic subject in and of itself due to its influence on literature, further strengthens this. (The scary thing is that I'm having to explain this to anyone.)(
    talk 00:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Or even just a few paragraphs on legacy/creation/critical reception of the plot. There's plenty that can be written; it's just a matter of finding the sources. — Deckiller 01:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Just because a few people here on this AFD have agreed that IAR should be applied and that
    talk.contribs 03:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
If it was moved to user space and then back to article space when done, that should preserve all of the edit history. -Chunky Rice 02:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment of course not--the original work is over a thousand pages long in most editions, and few people approach such a monumental novel without wanting to et some idea of what its about. And most are likely to need a certain amount of help keeping everything straight. The plot summary is not long because it is over-detailed --unlike some video episode summaries--it is long because it is a very complicated plot. Please do read the book, and see for yourself. DGG (talk) 03:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I dont know how you can classify this book as deserving an exception over TV shows. The soap all my children has run from the 70s to present day and I can say with certainty that there has been a lot more twists and complications there. This piece of literature may be important to some, but I'm sure that All My Children is just as important to others. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of All My Children Corpx 07:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Corpx, I think you have a point. If we let in this, what won't we let in under the same principle? But the question is better addressed over at the discussion page of
WP:NOT, and this discussion is about this particular deletion decision. I certainly think THIS article should stay even if the rule is never changed -- if that happens, it will simply be an exception to the rule. That might actually be the best course, and we may have as many as one or two dozen more exceptions to the rule of similarly long, intricately plotted classics. Or we could let in all plot summary articles. But that decision and discussion is mostly for the rules talk page. If this sets a precedent, I don't care, I think saving this one is worth it. Noroton 16:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Either all or almost all plot summary sections in Wikipedia contain information taken directly from the book, which is, after all, the best source. I suppose you could take plot summaries from Cliffs Notes, etc., but what's the purpose? The writer did what had to be done to accomplish the goal of having a plot summary. It's pretty straightforward and it's what we do when we take information from any source. Noroton 00:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A purpose of citing to Cliffs Notes would be to comply with Wikipedia's
reliable sources independent of the topic. The book itself is not independent of the topic, so it is not the best Wikipedia source. See Wikipedia:Independent sources. -- Jreferee (Talk) 09:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Comment I just noticed that
    WP:FICT
    's examples section tells clearly that this content should reside in wikibooks.
And, for the record, all three of these are monumentally important books of truly high levels of literary excellence and significance. I agree with Corpx.
talk.contribs 13:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Very interesting. But the point of Wikibooks is not to be a repository of plot summary articles. I thought it might be an option until I looked into Wikibooks further. The Atlas Shrugged article is far more detailed than a plot summary, the Lord of the Flies is something very like the Les Mis plot article we have here, and the Of Mice and Men article is broader than the plot. The point of the Les Mis plot article is to present a summary of the plot that tries to balance depth with conciseness (if someone wants something even more concise, they can go to the plot summary in the main article). Although the Lord of the Flies Wkibooks article looks very similar, I think that's only because it's at a rudimentary stage for Wikibooks. If we send this article to Wikibooks, eventually it would become something much more vast, and we lose the plot summary as a discrete thing. Noroton 00:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding more information is a good thing, like for the Atlas shrugged article. I dont see any way we "lose" the plot summary. Atlas shrugged has a plot summary with some additional info. The plot summary is still there. Lord of the Flies looks exactly like this one, but I would judge it to be better. Corpx 04:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would also like to note that wikibooks has a "Fictional Annotations" section that's perfect for something like this. Corpx 04:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can transwiki it to wikibooks, as
    WP:FICTION demonstrates Corpx 22:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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