Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Privy Councillor with responsibility for the Crown Dependencies

All members of the

Privy Council of the United Kingdom. The Cabinet is a committee of the Privy Council. The premise of this article is like creating a seperate article titled "Privy Councillor with responsibility for national security" for a role filled by the Home Secretary. What Crawley is saying is that whoever happens to be serving as Justice Secretary holds these responsibilities. AusLondonder (talk) 01:14, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply

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A better comparison would be with Lord President of the Council. Currently Mark Spencer (and until February Jacob Rees-Mogg) holds both that office, and the position of Leader of the House of Commons, and sits in Cabinet. However, Lord Present of the Council, which is a Privy Council responsibility is not part of the responsibilities of Leader of the House of Commons, and has been combined with different posts in the past (and sometimes no other post, e.g. Viscount Hailsham in the early 1960s), and has on occasion been held by someone not in the Cabinet (e.g. Andrea Leadsom). In contrast there are no "national security" responsibilities that come distinctly from the privy council, and hence the Home Secretary has no distinct responsibility as "Privy Counsellor with responsibility for national security" - all the responsibilities are part of the ministerial office. Mauls (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also point out that multiple secondary sources related to the constitutional affairs of the Crown dependencies are clear that it is a distinct office held by a privy counsellor, which is generally held concurrently by a member of the UK cabinet. See for example Kermode, D. G.. Ministerial Government in the Isle of Man: The First Twenty Years, 1986-2006. Isle of Man: Manx Heritage Foundation, 2008, p.173 "advised by the Secretary of State for Home Affairs in his capacity as a privy counsellor" (emphasis added); Kermode, D. G.. Offshore Island Politics: The Constitutional and Political Development of the Isle of Man in the Twentieth Century. United Kingdom: Liverpool University Press, 2001. p.379 "The UK Home Secretary in his capacity as a privy counsellor ..."; The Times Reports of Debates in the Manx Legislature. United Kingdom: n.p., 1984. p. 594 "It must be remembered that responsibility for the Island's affairs does not actually fall on the Home Office, but on the Privy Counsellor responsible for advising the sovereign on the affairs of Crown dependencies".

In 2001 the Government of Jersey commenced legal action against Jack Straw, then the Privy Counsellor with Responsibility for the Crown Dependencies for not submitting a law to the privy council for ratification - Straw had not done so because the UK government did not approve of the law, but the Jersey Government contested that this was an improper interference of the UK office of Home Secretary with the office of Crown Dependencies Privy Counsellor (Straw backed down and submitted the taxation law for approval, so the issue was not resolved in court.) See "A harmful delay", (2001) Jersey Law Review 5 (120)

Also primary sources of the Crown dependendies governments draw the distinction between the offices, c.f. https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/ID%20Law%20Officers%27%20Complaints%20Procedure%2020160805%20ALS.pdf; https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/C%20Judicial%20Independence%20Appendix%201%2020170616%20DS.pdf.

It could also be pointed out that responsibility for Crown dependency affairs is conversely not listed in the responsibilities of the (office of) Secretary of State for Justice: https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/secretary-of-state-for-justice

I have not seen any sources cited yet in support of AusLondoner's contention, which appears to be based on the misunderstanding that the position is a post in the United Kingdom government, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the constitutional relationship between the Crown dependencies and the Crown. Mauls (talk) 14:09, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the sources mentioned by myself and Uncle G to the article. Mauls (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]