Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russian fascism (ideology)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This is a difficult discussion to close. The article defines "Russian fascism" as "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation". While it is not really disputed here that many policies and actions of the current Russian government are (a) deplorable and (b) resemble those of fascist (and other totalitarian) regimes, the question at the core of this AfD is whether we can neutrally, verifiably and without original research define these practices as "Russian fascism". To arrive at a consensus about this question, this discussion would have had to analyze the sources in the article with a view to their reliability and their pertinence for defining a concept of "Russian fascism". But this discussion falls far short of doing this, mostly merely asserting that the article is a POV fork or that the topic is important. Only a few people on both sides of the argument really discuss the sources, and they don't agree with each other, leading us to no consensus. I suggest that interested editors organize a structured RfC on how to organize the various articles related to the intersection of fascism and Russia, which might result in consensus to merge this article into existing ones. Sandstein 12:32, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian fascism (ideology)

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This is a

WP:POVFORK of Russian nationalism. The sources I've skimmed through on this article are generally either discussing Russian nationalism, or discussing whether the term "fascism" should or could be applied to Putin/Russia, rather than discussing a distinct and coherent ideology by the name of "Russian fascism". Endwise (talk) 10:51, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Delete to
    WP:FICTREF
    .
Unfortunately, other WP versions have already translated the English version of the article in their language. I think those should also be deleted. Veverve (talk) 11:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have come to doubt the notability of the subject. See my comments at this AfD and
here. Veverve (talk) 01:07, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
CU blocked/topic banned editor. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:55, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Keep This is not just Russian nationalism, it`s fascism, and as it carries the ideas of the cult of personality, militarism, totalitarianism and Russian imperialism. The term "rashizm" is too well known in the post-Soviet space to remove it. You can search in Google "рашизм". Against the background of some Russians sincerely supporting the actions of their government using the letter Z in social media, it is cynical to delete an article about what is now common in Russia. Jafaz (talk) 11:19, 3 March 2022 (UTC)Topic banned, CU banned for sockpuppetry. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, it seems there is such an article on the Ukrainian Wikipedia: https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC Maybe translating that would be a better start? Endwise (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jafaz: the only real argument of yours is [t]he term "rashizm" is too well known in the post-Soviet space to remove it; I argue that there is Wiktionary if you believe an expression or term is important. WP:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.
By the way, you are the main contributor to this article, and thus are responsible for the dire state it is in; this includes accusations of WP:POVFORK,
WP:FICTREF and OR by @Endwise: which you have not even attempted to rebuke. The second main contributor is @Tsans2: who has so far not responded to the AfD nomination. Veverve (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Your accusations about the horror of the article are completely unfounded, as I understand it, you are guided by your Russophilia. By that logic, you should delete the article about the ghosts of Kyiv. I am not the author of this article, dear.Jafaz (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jafaz: Those are gratuitous and baseless accusations, as well as personnal attacks. Those are not allowed on Wikipedia. You have once again not made any attempt at rebuking the norminator's arguments or mine. You have written 52% of this article which has been created less than a week ago. Notability does not prevent a TNT, especially on such a recently created article. Veverve (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I assure you that this term exists in Central and Eastern Europe and is very common. If the user @Veverve: did not constantly delete files from the article with unfounded accusations of their unjustified use in this article, you would see a protest in Moscow with a poster "Stop rashism". The term rashism is much older than the "Ghost of Kyiv". Thank God the page of the ghost of Kyiv has not been nominated for removal yet. As I said, those who are about to remove this article are Russophiles who want to hide the existence of this kind of fascism. Due to recent events, they probably do not want to cover their position. Against the background of Russian troops now killing civilians (I already have a murdered family of acquaintances of a classmate from Kharkiv.) and trying to seize Ukrainian cities, all those who try to justify the Russian regime or hide their ideology for English-speaking people are also participants in this genocide. I can no longer control my emotions.Jafaz (talk) 16:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
*Keep due to the relevance of the topic against the background of the Russo-Ukrainian War. LMAO. The fact of russicism, ruscism, rashism, or how to write it correctly in English, is recognized even by the Russian opposition. I also agree with the comment above. Adam Darque (talk) 17:09, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that this user is a sock of Jafaz.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Mild keep. Page can definitely be improved and citations fixed. It really needs to talk about groups and organisations which will put the ideology in context. The fact that there are articles in 8 other languages also gives some sense of notability. Gusfriend (talk) 11:04, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gusfriend thanks. I try to develop and improve it. I agree it's need to be rearranged. I added a few significant authors into preamble who describe current Russian political regime as fascist. Tsans2 (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The deletion argument isn't so much notability as TNT, and I'm on the fence myself. The article's certainly in a dire state right now, particularly if there are no editors willing to clean it up to a presentable state (given that the creator is now blocked, and had competence issues). Jr8825 • Talk 19:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete being "mentioned by Google" does not equate to "notability". The overall approach of this article is closer to an original research mixing together various propagandistic ideas, biased sources, superficial clichés, some forced correlations all stitched together to pretend being a "scientific description of a political ideology". Unfortunately, we are far from something that can be seriously considered worth an encyclopaedia article, written in this form and with this (rather questionable) contents. We should at least need some more reliable sources: real political studies, not just a personal arrangement of mixed things presented as "description of an ideology".--
    talk) 22:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep or Rename to
    Girkin, Prilepin are a marginalized minority in Russia."[[[7]. But this minority is vocal, and the subject is notable. This page now exists in 10 other wikiprojects. No, these pages were not created by a single account, for example here. My very best wishes (talk) 05:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
But yes, this page is poorly written. Here is good version in Ukrainian WP [8]. My very best wishes (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: the Ukrainian version of the article is unacceptable, it contains what I have removed from the English version, which is: OR, FICTREF, unsourced claims, and non-RSs (most notably the People's Movement of Ukraine website) used as sources. Veverve (talk) 19:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are wrong. Sure, it could be improved. But the content was mostly sourced. I reverted it back to this version prior to the AfD. This is because me and other contributors above voted for that version, not for the ridiculous verrion that you created. My very best wishes (talk) 19:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, the Ukrainian article is terrible.
The idea the "Z" is a Russian Fascist symbol is unsourced, the sources include blogs such as a dead livejournal, or FICTREF such as a direct quote from Dzhokhar Dudayev disguised as a ref supporting the idea that "Herzen in his novel The Past and Thoughts (1868) in the form of 'Russianism' to denote the extremist trend in Muscoviteism. The term owes its revival to the President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, Dzhokhar Dudayev".
And the list goes on and on! You just need to have a look at all I have removed from the English version of the article in the edit history to know how bad the Ukrainian article - from which the English article was translated - is terrible and not worthy of a WP article. Veverve (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently, you simply do not know Russian and Ukrainian?(My apology. I did not realize that user knows Russian and Ukrainian[9]) Here is your edit with edit summary "none of those sources are related to or about the topic of this Wikipedia article!" This is wrong. As one can see even from titles of sources you removed. For example, "Рашизм і фашизм" (Ukrainian) exactly on the subject. "Ідеологія рашизму має бути засуджена світом, як нацизм і фашизм" - same thing, and so on and so on. But some of the English language sources you removed are also arguably on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @My very best wishes: None of the sources Tsan2 had added in the edit I reverted mentioned the topic.
    Every reference I have removed was removed with a clear justification in my edit summary. I admit other sources in the article mention or discuss Raschism or Russian Fascism. However, they are mostly used as FICTREF or non-RS.
    As I have noted numerous times: what is even the topic of this article? Is it Russian Fascism, Putinism, Russia under Vladimir Putin, or the alleged Raschism ideology? Veverve (talk) 20:12, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, if anyone looks at sources you removed (diff), most of the sources are clearly RS. Some others might be disputable, but it does not justify such large-scale deletions, especially during the standing AfD. I could check everything more carefully, but do not have time right now. My very best wishes (talk) 20:25, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I provided a rationale in the edit summaries for each of my removal of each source. Being a RS does not mean the source is not a FICTREF. Nothing prevents me from improving an article while it is being AfDed by removing what does not comply with WP's policies and standards,
WP:HEYMANN. Veverve (talk) 20:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Needs more discussion of sources and fewer pure votes or unsourced assertions.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 13:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Original research and POV pushing (just look at the concluding part of the introductory sentence, an explicit characterization of the ruling regime) in part work of a sock puppet. Virtually none of the reliable sources use the alternate terms in the opening line of the article. Rascism returns as racism to me, rashism similarly seems to have no meaningful footprint either while Russism and Russicism are synonymous with Russianism, a term with a completely different meaning. Much has been written about Vladimir Putin, his ideology and characteristics of the political system he has overseen but all those interpretations are covered under Russian nationalism or the Putinism article. Remember, this conflict has existed even before the invasion and Putin has been in power for even longer. If this article was a serious characterization it would have been covered in reliable sources and more explicit terms years ago. This reads like a neologism buzzword that's being pushed in response to the invasion. The keep voters who compare it to Nazism are even more silly, another overused ideological term. It's understandable that people are upset but the keep votes will have to be more policy grounded and sober analysis grounded. --Killuminator (talk) 22:32, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    nope, the russian fascism term is at least 15 year old. It's not so often used at West, but still quite live in Ukraine, Georgia, and even Russia. It's definitely not a neologism. Tsans2 (talk) 08:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: it appears some have been attempting to create this article on WP ru for more than 10 years, see here and here. I have contacted an admin on WP ru in hope they can provide some mor insight. Veverve (talk) 06:11, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Quick google search yielded about 50 results before 01\01\2022 on Rashism. The term has never been used in academia, it seems Floatline (talk) 13:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: the admin I said I had asked in my previous comment has answered:
Hello. The problem is that at different times and by different authors, the rather rare word "Rashism" was used in different meanings. No scientific sources have been cited and are not yet cited that give a clear definition of "rashism". At the same time, not a single generalizing source was given that considers the use of this word in the Russian language - the whole range of concepts denoted by this word at different times and by different people. Thus, an article on political science is impossible due to the lack of a single concept of rashism shared by the scientific community. An article about the term (similar, for example, to the article
en:Vatnik (slang)
) is impossible, since there are no sources from the field of linguistics and sociology.
I think it is an argument worth giving, so I decided to make a new comment instead of putting this answer below my previous one. Veverve (talk) 19:53, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep This article is about an ideology of modern Putin's Russian Federation, which is indeed best described as fascism, given its features during Putin's 23 years in power (in his many wars in Ukraine, Syria, Georgia, Chechnya, and his regime's crimes in Russia):
    • the idea of the supremacy of the “Russian world” (“ruskiy mir”) over the world;
    • the desire to rewrite history with blood;
    • intention to change the world order of international relations;
    • changing borders through war;
    • readiness to strike at peaceful cities with nuclear weapons;
    • denial of the right to exist of entire peoples, including Ukrainians;
    • the cult of personality of the state leader;
    • mass imperial hysteria of the Russians;
    • new totalitarian symbols and rituals;
    • repression against a minority with alternative views of the world;
    • a sense of complete impunity for the regime's actions that have ruined millions of lives.

The term “ruscism” was invented and has been used by Ukrainians for many years as a synonym for “Russian fascism”. This is not the same as Russian nationalism (I know that Putin differs in many ways from nationalists) and is more reminiscent of Salazar's regimes in Portugal, Franco's in Spain, and, to a lesser extent, Mussolini's in Italy. Written but not signed by 176.108.108.55

Indeed, the article has many drawbacks. It is clearly written by the author under the influence of his own experience (perhaps he is from Ukraine, where Russians are now committing genocide against the local population). The article definitely needs to be corrected, made more objective and scientific. Also more trusted links are needed. However, the article does not need to be removed, because it describes an existing phenomenon that has existed for decades, but today is proving to be the most active. Therefore, the article is very relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.108.108.55 (talk) 22:17, 13 March 2022 (UTC) — 176.108.108.55 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Veverve (talk) 01:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC) |}[reply]

IP, you have not provided a single reliable source to prove the subject is notable. From what I get, "Russian fascism", "Rachism", "Russicism", etc. seem to be Ukrainian
buzzwords with no clear meaning(s) used to refer to perceived negative traits of Russia and Putin's government; this is similar to how the word wikt:Macronie is used in French to basically refer to 'whatever I do not like about Emmanuel Macron or his policies or both'. Veverve (talk) 00:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
please read the sources already provided in the article. at least Alexander Motyl, Timothy Snyder Tsans2 (talk) 09:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fascism is a widely applicable term. That particular scholarly publication by Motyl [10] tells about "Putin's Russia as a fascist political system" [according to author]. This is a specific political system, rather than just a political ideology (Rashism), although the ideology is a part of that political system. This scholarly RS could be used on the page either about ideology or the system. My very best wishes (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as part of a larger re-org. I initially had the page as a mild keep (which I have now struck) under the impression that the page would end up talking about fascism in Russia in general but the focus is definitely towards a very modern perspective and recently defined ideology. As such keeping the name "Russian fascism (ideology)" is somewhat misleading. Ideally this page would be called something like Rashizm, the page called
    Template:Russian fascism with links to those pages, a small section on Rashizm with a hatnote to the main article. Then we end up with a master article detailing the history and how it fits together. Gusfriend (talk) 01:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    interesting idea. I think that we need now to preserve from deletion this page and then with collaboration of many users make it clear. Tsans2 (talk) 09:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. Nothing prevents from creating page
    Rashism (per sources like [15],[16]). Obviously, both words mean exactly same thing, hence this should be one page. My very best wishes (talk) 01:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Strong keep as a witness to the crimes of the Russians in Ukraine and the severe suffering of my family and millions of others --Perohanych (talk) 07:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry but, this is a PoV response.
      WP:ILIKEIT isn't enough. — Czello 08:03, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      @Czello of cource, but it's a true emotion of millions of people in Ukraine. Tsans2 (talk) 09:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      @Tsans2: I have no doubt, but sadly this isn't criteria for inclusion. — Czello 10:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      sure :( I think right now hundreds of political scientists are righting about russian fascism. Tsans2 (talk) 10:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I have another argument. If it is characterized by dictatorial power like a fascism, forcibly suppresses opposition like a fascism, and strongly regiments society and the economy like a fascism, then it probably is fascism (see Duck test) --Perohanych (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      This is not an argument. You have not provided any RS to support the notability of the subject, i.e. a peculiar ideology. If you want to state that Putin's government is fascist, then you can edit Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:15, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: This article is borderline unhinged. This goes so far beyond POV editing that it just becomes active propaganda. I also love how some of the most vitriolic claims aren't even sourced. Curbon7 (talk) 09:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I recently added many views into article and hope it made it more broad. thanks! Tsans2 (talk) 09:55, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note for closing admin. User Veverve started this thread at WP:AN [17] related to this AfD. The user is currently blocked from editing this page. My very best wishes (talk) 17:39, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The article is still in its early stages of development and has many issues. However, the way to write an encyclopedia is to fix the issues and improve the articles instead of deleting them - for as long as the topics are notable.
While terms like "Russicism", "Ruscism" or "Rashism" might be too new and little used (at least in the West) to be used as article titles, the foremost descriptive title "Russian fascism" is much older. It was used by the Russian fascist ideologue
Timothy D. Snyder or Stefan Plaggenborg) and more recently by many other authors (like Svetlana Alexievich
, just to name one) as a proper name refering to the phenomenon and ideology (or sub-ideologies).
Russian fascism
, if it can be sourced reliably.
There is certainly some overlap with the Russian nationalism#Extremist nationalism subsection and with Putinism, but this doesn't mean that "Russian fascism" shouldn't be discussed in an article of its own. Time will tell if "Russian fascism" will remain the most suitable title or if another name emerges and sticks long-term to describe the phenomenon.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 19:25, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Matthiaspaul: the article is explicitly about Russian Fascism/Raschism/Russicism (the alleged sub-ideology) as per wikidata:Q15975478; the article is not about Fascism in Russia which is covered by wikidata:Q13479496. You are asking for a complete change of scope of the article and the link to another Wikidata item. To me, this is not what a 'Keep' vote should be; you might as well vote to delete and the result would be the same, as there is nothing which can be kept or merged for a broad article on Fascism in Russia apart from the quite smalle "History" section. Veverve (talk) 20:34, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I think there are two options based on the AfD discussion. One of them is making a general page
    First Chechen war (our page Putler would be a sub-page of such page). I think one could do both pages. Someone recently suggested good sources here [26]. My very best wishes (talk) 00:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Notice: This morning I added the

Draft:Fascism in Russia which has a few page links and some section headings on with with the intention of eventually putting it there. Rather than waiting until I have written something that I am happy with I am letting people know that it exists and inviting everyone to make changes to it. I hope that this makes things easier for everybody as there is now a (draft) place for the wider context to sit. Feel free to reach out with questions or comments.Gusfriend (talk) 02:09, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.
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