Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikitruth (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was closed early and kept by overwhelming consensus. No need to prolong this, esp. in light of the aforementioned "screwup." El_C 06:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikitruth

This article was restored after a speedy deletion was

reviewed and overturned. A prior AfD, in April, ended in no consensus. Procedural listing, so I abstain for now. ~ trialsanderrors 18:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

Big bold notice - original speedy (by me) was due to a Google screwup, apparently Google is case sensitive (so be warned) and I had googled WikiTruth instead and so google decided that 150 hits was all it was going to pop by. That being said, it would have gone to AfD had I seen some propser results -- Tawker 06:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'll back up Tawker here, we had a conversation on IRC and I can verify the bizzare google results...
Lowercase search for "encyclopedia dramatica": Results 1 - 10 of about 13,400 for encyclopedia dramatica. (0.07 seconds)
Uppercase search for "Encyclopedia Dramatica": Results 1 - 10 of about 195,000 for Encyclopedia Dramatica. (0.06 seconds)
I have no idea whats up with google, but I can certainly see how Tawker might have gotten a wierd result in a search for "WikiTruth" ALKIVAR™ 06:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I first thought maybe google has problems with it. After all, there's a web page all about it and it recommended yahoo. So I tried Yahoo and noticed no difference in capitalization. Then I tried google and no capitalization different either.

Google:
Wikitruth - 102,00
WikiTruth - 102,00
"encyclopedia dramatica" - 133,000
"Encyclopedia Dramatica" - 133,000

Yahoo:
Wikitruth - 11,400
WikiTruth - 11,400
"encyclopedia dramatica" - 135,000
"Encyclopedia Dramatica" - 135,000
I tried in different web browsers and got the same result. I got radically different numbers for both sites than you two. Anomo 11:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Google returns different results depending on which server you happen to hit. For what it's worth, here's another google test excluding the sites themselves:
Zocky | picture popups 21:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It has been covered in respectable media outlets, looks like. Edward Wakelin 18:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, but it deserves a mention on Criticism of Wikipedia. 1ne 19:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, meets WP:WEB in terms of multiple media mentions. No reason has been given to delete, really. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, a well-known critic website about a notable encyclopedia, and its criticisms have been commented on in public by the said notable encyclopedia. All this has gotten into newspaper stories like the one in the Guardian, making the whole thing notable enough. Zocky | picture popups 19:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Mentioned in a number of mainstream publications, thorn in Wikipedia's side, amply meets
    WP:WEB, no reason given for deletion. JASpencer 19:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep Notable, newsworthy and interesting --Bedders 19:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, plus deleting it makes us look juvenile (not a criterion, I know). --Dhartung | Talk 20:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per media coverage and being somewhat widely known among critical sites. Also, the article, the AfDs, and the countless public debates have, over time, given me a profound zen revelation: We're All (speaking now of both us and them) Wasting Time. It's got to count. Perhaps by keeping this article Wikipedia can contribute to our implied mission of enrichening human minds and knowledge. Because life is too short for people to truly know anything. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 20:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Wikipedia as realized, as opposed to idealized, is an essentially farcical undertaking. Wikitruth is notable by objective – and even Wikipedia – criteria as well as an appropriate response, whoever lies behind it, whatever their motives. Arcsincostan 21:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, has recieved multiple non-trivial mentions in major media outlets. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I think Tawker was just trying to get himself criticized on their site :) I oppose deletion, but I wouldn't be against merging into the longer Criticism of Wikipedia article, where sites like Wikipedia Watch and Wikipedia Review are mentioned and discussed.--Cúchullain t/c 21:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The "speedy" that erased this page declared it failed "WP:WEB." However, "WP:WEB" is not a criteria for speedy deletion. The majority of negative commentators on it's overturning simply said they didn't like the site because it was negative, or because it was (they asserted) created by a banned user. However, like them or hate them, whether they were started by a banned user or by Jesus Christ, the fact remains that killing the messenger doesn't change the message. The bottom line is that Wikitruth meets all criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. One of Wikitrith's largest criticisms of Wikipedia is that pages can (and very often are) deleted without warning and leaving no trace, despite the GFDL. Speedy-deleting the Wikitruth entry on Wikipedia does not delete their criticism, it validates it. Xaa 21:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Websites that fail to assert notability per WP:WEB are subject to CSD A7 these days. However, this was introduced very recently and applying it to old articles with considerable history and would likely to cause debate if unilaterally removed is iffy at best, dubious at worst. CSD is primarily intended to remove new articles in case where it's entirely uncontroversial (as in "every user should know that it doesn't help to create articles that fail CSD, because those get deleted"). If there's even tad bit of possibility the site is at all notable, it's an AfD case. I wouldn't go enforcing the "new" A7 on old articles unless it's extremely clear-cut and there's not been significant improvement since creation. This article clearly isn't an open-and-shut case and it should be AfD'd. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 22:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Jeff and others, and my comments at DRV. --W.marsh 21:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, we've been here before and there's no new information suggesting it should be deleted. --Spoom - Talk 21:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Criticism of Wikipedia. The mentions in the media are sparse at best and mostly in the context of Wikipedia. Just because it criticizes Wikipedia doesn't make it any more or less notable. If this was a site criticizing Microsoft, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. It would have been deleted already. -- ShinmaWa(talk) 22:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, simply removing their page on Wikipedia does not make their criticisms any less valid, especially about the powers of admins deciding things by themselves. Notable, no original research etc. --Midnighttonight remind to go do uni work! 22:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC) (edit conflict)[reply]
  • Keep Tawker speedy deleted it, its redirects, and its talk page, and then salted the article--all while never giving communication about it on the wiki. Then despite it being early October, he claimed he was going on Thansgiving holiday. Maybe he deleted the article due to emotional turmoil, but yet his wikistress level says good on his userpage. Is Tawker's account hijacked? Anomo 22:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. First, sarcasm and abuse aren't appropriate here. Second, do be careful to do a bit of fact-checking before you wield sarcasm and bad faith in the future—while the United States celebrates Thanksgiving in November, this is not the case everywhere. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I considered assuming that the account would be hijacked before Tawker would ever do what he did was assuming good faith. Anomo 11:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A DRV result has already decided that A7 was not valid for a speedy deletion in this case. --67.71.78.201 04:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, isn't that just a tad obvious - why else would it be here. Apparently a google screwup gave me odder hits for my original search so hits might not be as big of a facor originally. ED and Wikitruth appear to have similiar hit counts but one exists and the other does not. Anyways, technical screwup led to the first speedy, but my reasoning still stands here. BTW, may I suggest logging in.. it makes life easier -- Tawker 06:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tawker, as I've demonstrated above, it does meet WP:WEB. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As usual, this depends on how we read multiple and non-trivial. Orlowski's piece is merely repeating the arguments he made on the Reg for the benefit of the sandal-wearing lentil-eating Grauniad readers. Wikitruth is merely a hook on which to hang this (and if you get paid by the word, it's a pretty good idea to recycle earlier work). Ebiz just regurgitates Orlowski, so that can't qualify towards multiple. The Village Voice piece is independent, and presumably non-trivial, and an unbalanced rant into the bargain. No doubt you see this as meeting WP:WEB's requirements, but I don't. So we disagree, no surprise there. However, the impossibility of this ever being NPOV means that we'll be back here again, after a decent interval, repeating exactly the same arguments. "Avoid writing or editing articles about [Wikipedia], since we all find objectivity especially difficult when we ourselves are concerned." Good advice that. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tawker, I think that speedy deleting it, speedy deleting the redirects, salting the article, and especially speedy deleting the talk page and then remaining silent about it on wiki until it was restored really hurt this AFD. Before you did that, not that many people were paying attention to the artcle and then suddenly the news of what you did spread everywhere and lots of people came to vote to keep it. So the actions hurt your cause and you would have done better by AFDing it through process.Anomo 11:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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