Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zionist antisemitism

• Delete. This article is a very alternative way of writing about Christian Zionism, or small portions of Christian Zionism. The article relies heavily on anti-Zionist organizations, like the Jews for Justice for Palestinians website to make collect its tendentious points. It also collects every instance, like Paraguay, Poland, and Norway in which an anti-Semite supported Israel under the false label of Zionism. Alfredo Stroessner was not a Zionist, but he is presented as one here. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 08:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @User:לילך5 The article is not only about Christian Zionism. It is also about the state-sanctioned antisemitism of the Israeli government, the antisemitism of major Zionist groups in the diaspora (the ADL, AIPAC, and DMFI have all recently been accused of antisemitism), the antisemitism of right-wing nationalists who may not be Christian at all, etc. You dismiss Jewish anti-Zionist groups, but give no reason. Should their perspective be erased because you don't agree with it? All of the "tendentious points" in the article are sourced, based on what other people have asserted, but you seem to dislike the opinions in the sources. Is that a justifiable reason for deletion? You declare antisemitic Zionists as using a "false label of Zionism", but that is your opinion. If someone declares themselves both a Zionist and an antisemite, as people like Richard Spencer explicitly do, why do you become the expert who gets to declare them "false" Zionists? There seems to be some sort of dubious assumption here that "good" people are real Zionists and "bad" people are fake Zionists. Why should Wikipedia choose your opinion over theirs or over observers who have called them Zionist antisemites? Whether or not Stroessner was personally a Zionist is irrelevant, because critics of Israel's dealings in Latin America are also criticizing the Zionist antisemitism of the Israeli government itself. The section on Poland explictly mentions that the Bund ran campaigns denouncing what it called "antisemitic Zionism", so I'm not even sure how that section is debatable. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The "state-sanctioned antisemitism of the Israeli government" is particularly off topic, and contains laughable claims such as Jacobo Timerman being arrested by Nazis. Timerman left Europe before the Nazi's rise, lived in Argentina, and later made Aliyah to Israel, he was never persecuted by any Nazi regime. The entire section is about dealings between Israeli entities and foreign actors who may or may not be antisemitic. This includes claims by far left groups in the "Rights Groups Demand Israel Stop Arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine" piece as sourcing. This article contains a collection of criticisms of Zionism or the Israeli government. It has very little to do with antisemitism or Zionism. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 04:57, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @User:לילך5 Scrubbing all mention of Israeli antisemitism as "particularly off topic" is convenient to protecting the Israeli state from critique and bolstering the Zionist POV. And if Christian Zionists and right-wing European nationalists are false Zionists, then it implies that only Jews are real Zionists. This strikes me as a dangerously antisemitic conflation of Jews with Zionism. The section on Jacobo Timerman can be cleaned up to be more precise. He was certainly tortured by Argentine Nazis while in prison. The criticism of Israeli support for antisemites (and the social effects this had on the diaspora) has everything to do with antisemitism. When the Zionist establishment was silent about his persecution, Jacobo Timerman compared them to the Judenrat. In Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number, Timerman writes about the Nazi ideology of his torturers and how they hung pictures of Hitler on the walls, and he refers to them as "Nazis", "Argentine Nazi ideologues", and the "heart of Nazi operations in Argentina". Ramón Camps, one of his torturers, was certainly a Nazi ideologue and Nazi ideology circulated widely through Argentina's military and security forces. The idea that critics of Israel's arming of antisemites aren't objecting to antisemitism is laughable. When people critique Israel for arming murderously antisemitic Latin American dictatorships, that doesn't count as a critique of Israeli-backed antisemitism? I would argue that, yes, giving Uzis to Nazis who kill Jews is in fact antisemitic. Even when Israel does it. The "collection of criticisms" of the Israeli government are all related to Israel supporting, arming, and funding specifically antisemites or antisemitic regimes. You refer to the Israeli human rights activists as "far left". Which Israeli groups or Israeli individuals are you referring to and how do they count as "far left"? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Absurd subject made up to attack Zionism using fringe claims. --
  Triggerhippie4 (talk) 08:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

@

Triggerhippie4 This sounds like "I just don't like it". Many people would consider "new antisemitism" to be an absurd neologism coined to demonize anti-Zionists, and yet the article remains, because sources exist that attest to it. Sources attest to the existence of Zionist antisemitism, so the article should stay. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 00:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

That doesnt even begin to resemble a valid deletion rationale, much like most of the other delete votes. You not liking the subject is emphatically not a concern for Wikipedia. nableezy - 14:33, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Rename: The phenomenon of antisemites supporting Israel (in one way or another) has been noted in enough mainstream sources that I say keep, with the caveat that the article should be renamed to something like "Pro-Zionist antisemitism". Some examples of this usage:

1. "Pro-Zionist right-wing antisemitism continues to threaten Jewish lives in the US and Europe. ... It is high time that pro-Zionist US and European Jewish organisations issue special reports on pro-Zionist antisemitism." (Joseph Massad, [1])
2. "There's a dangerous and popular fashion in Europe to be antisemitic and pro-Zionist at the same time" (Slavoj Žižek, [2])
3. "Trump, however, has inverted this formula by positioning himself as a pro-Zionist anti-Semite." (Masha Gessen, [3])
4. "Throughout Europe most major racist parties are antisemitic, Islamophobic and pro-Zionist." (
   Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, [4]
   )

Alternatively "Antisemitism among supporters of Israel". That these people are "Zionists" is not something that should be taken at face value. –Ploni (talk) 08:48, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ploni What exactly is the difference between a Zionist and a pro-Zionist? That seems like a distinction without a difference. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bohemian Baltimore: Supporting Israel or Zionists (financially, legislatively, etc.) does in itself not mean one is a member of the Zionist movement. It's a subtle difference, admittedly. I imagine most Zionists would hold that antisemitism is fundamentally incompatible with Zionism, which is centred around belief in the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and statehood, while some anti-Zionists have argued otherwise. Calling the article "Pro-Zionist antisemitism", "Antisemitism among supporters of Israel", "Antisemitic supporters of Zionism", or "Antisemitic supporters of Israel" would avoid taking a stance on this controversial question. –Ploni (talk) 16:11, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. It could be construed as a dog whistle for anti-Zionism, supposedly linking the movement to nefarious things like Anti-Semitism, based on an absurdly tiny, unhinged group. We can do it to anyone. Archway (talk) 14:41, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @User:Archwayh If we only include the Zionist perspective and not the anti-Zionist perspective, it suggests that only Zionist perspectives (well-attested to here) are acceptable on Wikipedia and that anti-Zionist perspectives are to be censored and scrubbed from mention. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Very limited and cautious Merge and redirect, to Christian Zionism. My first thought is that this is about the antisemitic wing of Christian Zionism in slightly obfuscated form and that it should be covered there. In fact, I am utterly shocked to see that it isn't covered there already given that it is well known that some of the more extreme Christian Zionists see Jews as nothing more than disposable pawns in their idiotic plan to trigger the apocalypse. We don't want a POVFORK with two articles covering the same topic in different ways. Trouble is that the content here is very variable but far more bad than good. It's overblown, and very POV, so merging it will involve a lot of careful rewriting to eliminate the excessive stuff and give the rest a NPOV. I suggest creating a section within Christian Zionism called Antisemitism within Christian Zionism, or something like that, to make it clear that this does not automatically include all Christian Zionists. If the consensus is that I am wrong here, and that this really is a separate topic from Christian Zionism, then my second thought is to agree with Ploni and suggest a rename to something like Antisemitism among supporters of Israel although that would have to be coupled with a massive dose of TNT to get rid of all the POV and overcoverage. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@DanielRigal I would note that the article isn't just about Christian Zionists. It also talks about the antisemitism of right-wing nationalists (who may be secular or otherwise non-Christian), the antisemitism of Jewish Zionists, and the state-sanctioned antisemitism of the Israeli government. When people criticize the antisemitism inherent to Israeli collaborations with right-wing nationalists and Christian Zionists, yes they are criticizing nationalist antisemitism and Christian antisemitism, but there is also a criticism of state-supported Israeli antisemitism as well. There's also an understanding on the Jewish left that Zionist orgs like ADL, AIPAC, Democratic Majority for Israel, etc have at times attacked Jewish anti-Zionists in ways that are antisemitic and draw on antisemitic stereotypes (examples would be AIPAC leaning into George Soros conspiracies or DMFI attacking Sara Jacobs for being too rich). Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:53, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep (per keep arguments) but Rename the article to Pro-Zionist antisemitism as Ploni proposed. (Thanks Ploni, that’s better in my humble opinion.) - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Israel and Palestine. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: This article should exist if there are academic sources that: first, establish this as a legitimate subject meeting notability standards, and second, establish that it is distinct from the ideas and history of Christian Zionism. Barring that, I would support a merge with Christian Zionism. The current sourcing on the article is largely
  WP:PARTISAN, which on their own might not be enough to establish notability and should replaced with superior sources when possible. If it is dependent on these sources, then that is probably a good sign the article does not reflect an academic consensus. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:39, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  @User:Thebiguglyalien The article mentions the antisemitism of the Israeli government, the antisemitism of Zionist organizations, the antisemitism of European nationalists, etc. It isn't just about Christian Zionism. By the way, the sourcing for the "New antisemitism" article is largely "partisan", but it seems that Zionist partisanship doesn't fall under the same scrutiny. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 20:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: When Zionism first came on to the world stage a century ago with the Balfour Declaration it was denounced as anti-semitic by many influential British Jews. See Balfour Declaration#Rights and political status of Jews in other countries. Balfour himself is considered by many scholars to have been antisemitic - a decade earlier as Prime Minister he had pushed through the Aliens Act 1905, which sought to keep Jews out of Britain. Many authors have written on this, such as Professor Gilbert Achcar:

• Achcar, Gilbert (2017-11-02). "Zionism, anti-semitism, and the Balfour Declaration". openDemocracy.

Today, the antisemitism underlying evangelical Zionism is widely reported. Notably the recent article by Dr. S. Jonathon O’Donnell:

• O’Donnell, S. Jonathon (2020-01-23). "Antisemitism under erasure: Christian Zionist anti-globalism and the refusal of cohabitation". Ethnic and Racial Studies. 44 (1). Informa UK Limited: 39–57.
  ISSN 0141-9870
  .

Some scholars have proposed that this link has always been there, such as Professor Joseph Massad:

• Massad, Joseph (2019-05-15). "Pro-Zionism and antisemitism are inseparable, and always have been". Middle East Eye.

These three sources illustrate the

WP:GNG of this topic. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Comment: Just to add: if the outcome of this discussion is "keep", the article needs a serious clean-up. –Ploni (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. I'm sure that some elements of this can be saved in a keep/merge/rename scenario but most of them would require rewriting and possibly complete

WP:TNT, hence the cautious nature of my merge !vote. DanielRigal (talk) 20:20, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Comment I would like to note the repeated bashing of the Jewish left (the "fringe" "tendentious" "far left"). I would note this as an example of a right-wing bias. But I would also note that there's a long history of demonizing the Jewish left, including a history in the United States, in ways that I believe are overtly or implicitly antisemitic. This antisemitic, anti-left demonization has been promoted both by non-Jews (See: "Zionism versus Bolshevism", Churchill's antisemitic essay against the Jewish left) as well as by some right-wing Jews (See: AJC celebrating the execution of the Rosenbergs). The popular stereotype of the Jewish left is often constructed along antisemitic lines - depicted as fringe, irrelevant, self-loathing, tendentious, subversive, rootless radicals - and sometimes this antisemitic construction is endorsed and promoted by Zionists. I would name AIPAC, ADL, and DMFI as examples of antisemitic Zionist groups that have attacked the Jewish left with antisemitic right-wing rhetoric. This isn't just my observation, but that of others as well. As Jacob Remes writes in The Forward, "These attacks continue the McCarthyite tradition of disrupting leftist movements by calling attention and objecting to the presence of Jews in them." Not every manifestation of antisemitism targets all Jews, some manifestations target specific Jews or Jewish groups. These are the bad Jews, who we have permission to hate and dismiss, unlike the good Jews who deserve protection from such prejudice. An implicit pulse here is that Zionists are the good Jews and Jewish leftists are the bad Jews. I identify this as a form of antisemitism, and I identify it as rooted in a history of institutional antisemitism. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:26, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This makes it sound as if the article was created as a

WP:POVFORK, in which case a delete is definitely warranted. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Anti-Zionist antisemitism, as the existence of both is well-attested to. But as I began to write the articles, I wasn't sure if an article on Anti-Zionist antisemitism would just be a re-hashing of the New antisemitism article or not. The existence of the "New antisemitism" article didn't occur to me when I was planning the article on Anti-Zionist antisemitism. If "New antisemitism" could be said to be a sub-set of a broader Anti-Zionist antisemitism, then I would support the creation of such an article. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

This article largely overlaps with Christian Zionism, but it is written from a distinct POV. I don't believe it's appropriate to accuse users of antisemitism for identifying this POV and labeling it as

WP:WHATABOUT arguments should not be invoked in AfD. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:47, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@User:Thebiguglyalien Since the article was created, I have had labels like "antisemitic", "tendentious", "far left", "fringe", etc. used against me. But the moment that I object, and question whether some of this rhetoric is itself antisemitic, I become the problem. The inappropriate person. I can be portrayed as an antisemite and a kook, but my objection to this characterization is inappropriate, because the Zionist perspective is apparently the only appropriate view. They can identify my supposed POV as whatever they like using whichever pejoratives, but I'm not supposed to question this? This is a double standard that I strenuously object to. It isn't fair. It implies that their opinion on antisemitism is good, whereas my opinion on antisemitism is bad. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:05, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, please refrain from using

WP:SYNTHESIS rather than an accepted academic subject (which, as I said above, is the criteria that should be used to determine whether it is kept). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:31, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@User:Thebiguglyalien How is the article "original research" when there are in fact academic sources that discuss antisemitism within Zionism? Why are those sources to be disregarded? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:48, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the section on synthesis. Combining examples from different sources to produce your own conclusion is original research. As has been said several times in this discussion, the subject of this article does not appear to be an accepted subject of academic research. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per the sources I posted above, not all pro-zionist antisemitism is from Christian fundamentalists (i.e. Christian Zionism). Today that is the focus of most media covering the topic, because of the current political importance of Evangelicals in the US, but historically there were other motivations. British (and American) nationalist desires to redirect emigration out of Eastern Europe were one, per the example of Balfour above. Similar examples come from Nazi Germany, notably the Haavara Agreement. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Onceinawhile One unspoken assumption here seems to be that Zionists are Jews and thus gentile Zionists are not really Zionists, merely "pro-Zionists", a different category of person. I do question the conflation of Jews with Zionists. But even if we narrowed an analysis of Zionist antisemitism down to merely "pro-Zionist antisemitic" non-Jews, like you said above, that group includes more people than just Evangelicals in the US. I'm baffled by the comments saying the article only mentions Christian Zionists, while ignoring the stuff about nationalist antisemitism. The nationalist aspect of Zionist antisemitism admittedly needs more and better sources, but it is nonetheless obviously attested to (the sources about Christian Zionism were easier to find because they are more contemporary). You could also argue that the antisemitism within Trumpism embodies both Christian Zionist antisemitism and nationalist antisemitism at the same time. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:30, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. One problem underlying these misunderstandings is a conflation between Christian Zionism and non-Jewish Zionism by nominally Christian people. Many people don't realize that "Christian Zionism" is a specific reglious belief, not a synonym for Zionists-who-happen-to-be-Christians. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, notable topic. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

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