Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 20

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This was posted on my talk page by

Hi, I am looking to do some cleanup on the articles in the above but I'm stuck with what the naming convention should be. Most of them are just called: Pub name or Pub Name, Suburb. I took a look around and read some of the naming convention articles and see three options: Pub name, Suburb OR Pub name, Suburb, State OR Pub name, Suburb, Australia. The o/seas pubs aren't much help either. Can I get your thoughts on this? amitch 13:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

How about Pub name if it's pretty unique sounding (we can change it to be at the Pub name, Australia article later if it turns out to be not quite so unique, eg. Maid and Magpie in SA)? For places like "Queens Arms" or "Brighton Hotel" which are bound to be replicated all over the Anglophone world, Pub name, City/suburb/town is in order I think. What do others think? — Донама 01:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer building name, town for Buildings and structures in Australia. This seems to be the convention for building and street names that could repeat in other places, although the guideline seems to omit the comma. --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Building name, Town seems to be the way we've usually handled this elsewhere, and I think deals with the issue succinctly. Ambi 02:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but note that this will result in quite a few Name, Suburb, State titles, given the number of town/suburb names which exist in more than one state. JPD (talk) 10:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

With the amount of press this is getting, I think we really need an article on this. Any suggestions for a title?

"disaster" perhaps too strong a word given the latest news - either the latter or

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

02:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Prefer "Beaconsfield mine collapse" since it's agnostic as to whether it was a disaster or other kind of event. — Донама 02:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Beaconsfield mine collapse describes the event consisely. Ansell 02:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Started and stubbed article at this title. Could move to "2006 Beaconsfield mine collapse" to follow the format of certain other disastrous events. — Донама 03:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I started adding content to Beaconsfield, Tasmania when it happened. I thought if I created a whole new article it would get deleted or merged :P I will now merge the "collapse" section of the Beaconsfield article. -- Chuq 03:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Woops, I already kind of collapsed that one for you, Chuq. — Донама 03:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry but there is an article on the

That's pretty amusing. It's technically true, as well, I suppose. Lankiveil 05:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC).

The only assertion that I can find on the website that the

talk

05:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well if we want our own I guess we just duplicate this page and change occurances of 'Canada' to 'Australia'. "The current Canadian Royal Family are members of the House of Windsor, many members of which also comprise the British Royal Family." !!! - ҉Randwicked҉ 06:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There's already a fantastic article over at

Monarchy in Australia, no need to add something that is already covered appropriately. michael ^talk

06:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

What a load of garbage. There might be an argument for it if the family of our monarch were to adopt titles like "Prince of New South Wales" or "Duke of Cape York", though ;-) JPD (talk) 08:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Queen of Victoria?? Xtra 12:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that the article on Monarchy in Australia is good and appropriate; it is all the better for not listing say Princess Michael of Kent as being a member of the "Australian Royal Family". I fail to see Princess Michael's constitutional role in Australia (or Canada). Cyberjunkie, for a reliable source as to whether there is a Canadian Royal family, there is a web page published by the Canadian Government's Department of Heritage, the page is called "Royal Family" and it is linked from the page "The Canadian Monarchy". I did not find any equivalent Australian Government page, but perhaps I wasn't searching effectively enough, or perhaps we have more sense.--A Y Arktos\^talk 11:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The "Canadian Monarchy" and "Royal Family" are not the "Canadian Royal Family", a phrase I found only once at the link abovementioned. There is a Canadian monarchy, as there is an Australian one, but there is no Canadian or Australian royal family.--

talk

05:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or do we not have an article on this? I tried all different names I could think of... nothing. (If in case we don't, there's a good timeline to start with here.) pfctdayelise (translate?) 15:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't find one either - using Bakhtiari or Bakhtiyari. --Scott Davis ^Talk 23:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Used Wiki Wax to try and find something but had the same trouble. I would strongly support an improvement drive for

Australian_immigration#Illegal_migration or that entire article and also to start one specifically about the Bakhtiari case. — Донама

02:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I made it a

WP:ACOTF candidate. pfctdayelise (translate?

) 22:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

And while we're on the topic, can I ask exactly the same question as pfctdayelise asked above but with the topic being the NFF? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roisterer (talk • contribs)

It seems not. --Scott Davis ^Talk 23:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree this is also pretty important article and couldn't find it either. We can start at National Farmers Union for an idea of how the parallel article has been done for UK and US equivalents. — Донама 02:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Donama for promptly creating an article on the NFF. --Roisterer 10:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi All,

I've been on a wikibreak, and so I missed the above section about Map generation using Template:Superimpose until now. What a bloody fantastic template - but we can do so much more with it! .... So, I'm now trying to take the next logical step, which is generate a metro area map to show suburb locations. This can be done by combining four elements, namely:

1. Template:Superimpose.
2. The long + lat coordinate data that we already have against every Sydney suburb.
3. A map of Sydney.
4. The new #expr parser functions to do the maths to work out where to show the marker.

This has been done in Template:Sydney Locator Map.

You can now see some examples of this being used for three Sydney suburbs: Bundeena, Warragamba, and Palm Beach (you may need to scroll down to see the map).

For the people who live somewhere that's not Sydney, the same basic approach should also work for you too. Note however that currently this is very much an experiment, so potentially you might want to hang back a bit and see what happens and whether it works out okay or not.

What do people think of this? Useful, or not useful?

Open questions I have are:

• Can we add borders to the map, and/or right align it, and/or add a caption? (I haven't looked into Template:Superimpose yet to see whether this is possible).
• Is it desirable to add this to Template:Mapit-AUS-suburbscale, so that all suburbs in a city will have this, without having to manually add it? (e.g. we could have if lat/long are in Sydney show location on a Sydney map, if lat/long are in Melbourne show location on a Melb map, if lat/long are in Canberra etc etc, else don't show a map).
• Is it even technically possible to add this to Template:Mapit-AUS-suburbscale? My reading of the #ifexpr parser function makes me think the answer is "no", because of the way it handles the "|" symbol.

Comments / ideas / ways of improving all welcome as usual.

All the best, Nickj (t) 06:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea, but what about using this Sydney map which is more colourful and has some of the main locations written on it? --Astrokey44 08:52, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a version like that, using the LGA boundaries. Either way, I like the maps, but not the way they have been placed in the external links section. JPD (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

That does look nice, but I cannot read any of the labels, which sort of makes them redundant. Lankiveil 04:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC).

Not long ago I made reference to an opinion piece in The Australian by Patrick Smith that referred to an AFL commissioned report that indicated that most of the relevant stats point to aussie rules being ahead of all other sports by an absolute country mile in every indicator imaginable. That is my summation of what Mr Smith had to say. I was rightly questioned why I would copy that info to this notice board. My reasoning can be seen from this quote from the article Australia:

At an international level, Australia has particularly strong teams in

motor racing

.

"other popular sports include aussie rules..." with a ho ho ho. I am not going to get involved in this, but if anyone honestly thinks that this truly reflects the sporting landscape in Australia, well, three big letters come to my mind and you all know what they are. The rugby fraternity might be pleased with themselves in dumping aussie rules into the same basket (case) as soccer, when, as I have said previously, AFL memberships, crowds, TV earnings and merchandising sales are as much in AFL as all the other codes combined. Feel free to draw your own conclusions from these facts, but please do not respond with: Melburnians have nothing else to do, it's simply a difference in culture, etc.

I agree. That paragraph doesn't give enough credit to what is undoubtedly our national sport,

Crows! michael ^talk

07:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you guys keep in mind that notice boards are for talking about wikipedia, not about the subjects mentioned? Also, keep in mind

no original research - if you're arguing about whether or not a sport is popular, that's original research. Andjam

07:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your point - this whole noticeboard is full of subjects - in fact it appears to be about nothing else but subjects! I am quoting a newspaper article - isn't that what happens every minute of the day? Where does OR come into it? (especially since there is nothing original about it) It is true that I could be directed to the talk page of

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

08:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

See

Wikipedia:Talk_page#Wikipedia-specific_information and Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#What_talk_pages_may_be_used_for. With regards to original research, your statement "Feel free to draw your own conclusions from these facts" is a sign of original research - you've used several facts to come up with a conclusion, which is a form of original research. Andjam

08:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I took your cue, and immediately stumbled on this gem: Arguing as a means of improving an article is considerably less effective than an equal amount of time engaged in research. Now that's a Catch-22 if I ever saw one!

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

12:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd actually agree with that statement, though I can't think of any examples other than this right now. Andjam 14:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems there are a lot of people who are involved in Australian sport articles. Why not create a wikiproject for it. You already have one for AFL, I am sure it would be good for the sports people to have their petty little arguments in a place where everyone will be interested. This board is not a sports debate board, yet it is flooded with sports debates (more specifically, codes of footy). If you look at the other subjects that are on this board, they will either state something, ask something, or invite people to a debate which is somewhere else. --liquidGhoul 11:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there's already Wikipedia:WikiProject Australian sports. Andjam 14:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Am I to face the Australian people and declare to them that the Australian Wikipedians' notice board is actually off limits to the discussion of sport, including all forms of friendly inter-code debate (much less banter)? I can already hear the howls of protest and derision...

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

11:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Am I going to have to RFC your behind? Andjam 11:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I know many struggle to understand the prime position aussie rules has in Australian history and her culture, perhaps this quote from today's Age, by John Harms, will assist in a small way: As I clicked through the turnstile at the MCG...I was reminded that the battles on Corio Oval during the 1880s, when Geelong won half a dozen premierships, weren't just footy matches, they were about Geelong people righting injustice (that Melbourne had connived to become the capital city of Victoria over Geelong). Similar tales can be told about most senior clubs in Australia, they all have a similar tale to tell, and invariably they take us back to pre-Federation days - even in Sydney, which has a few clubs dating back to the 1890s. More often than not, the tales, the folklore, the mystique, of certain clubs take us back to the 1860s and 1870s (1859 in the case of Melbourne). Now, apart from the Melbourne Cup and cricket, both extremely important in terms of Austrlian culture, what other sport in has left as large a footprint on Australian history, folklore and culture as Australian football?

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

02:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The

You might want to list it at Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source 2006. I think there is also a template to put on the article's talk page. JPD (talk) 10:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The template,

Template:Authoronlinesource2006 is what you need for the talk page. Talk:Crazy Frog has plenty of in-use examples of this template, plus several other examples. -- Longhair

07:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This page has seen quite a bit of editing since Jeff gave the press a big story a couple of days ago. Please any experienced editors come and assist in raising the standard of this article. It has numerous uncited political claims - some scathing, some glowing - and can't decide between any number of POVs about which one it likes most. A source hunt or a more balanced re-write is required. Thanks in advance if you can help.

Taking a glance at it, I can't see anything in it that is wrong or particularly biased, but what is there could certainly be worded better. It seems like a good candidate for an Adam Carr rewrite. Ambi 12:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a shame Adam says he doesn't edit articles on living Australian politicians - so one of two things needs to happen for Adam to do a re-write. Choosing which one is best I will leave as a decision for the reader! -- Chuq 10:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's currenty serving pollies Adam won't touch, so Kennett need not meet an untimely end at the hands of a crazed Kangaroos supporter for him to get his article looked at. Whether Adam's up for it is another matter, of course, and he's on holiday at the moment in any case... ～J.K. 04:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

If there are any Canberrians about with cameras, could someone pop down to the

no cameras allowed. --Sumple (Talk) 14:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh well, I guess we'll have to Photoshop one then :P Just stitch together a generic photo of a courtoom, some generic barristers and the judges. enochlau (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever!? Kinda seems a bit pointless to make a photoshop illustration that appears to be a photo for WP... Any enterprising Canberrian with a sketchpad and coloured pencils could do one of those courtroom illustrations we're used to seeing in newspapers. Alternatively, take photos of protesters or whatever outside the courtroom as legal teams, etc, march inside. — Донама 04:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, I wasn't being serious? enochlau (talk) 06:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, I could wander down of a lunchtime - it might be fun and I can fulfill a life time's ambition of doing a

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

11:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

• 9 contributors made 20 edits
• The article increased from 461 words/3020 characters to 976 words/6280 characters - over 2 times longer
• See how it changed

The new ACOTF is Surf lifesaving. I allowed it some leeway on time as it had the most votes, and Australia Day received an extra week, throwing some of the other candidates (including this one) out of whack.

Comments suggest the following could also be within scope for improvement:

I'm not sure what would be most helpful, perhaps a standard infobox for Australian suburbs, another for towns...? An agreed-upon precision for geo coords? Automated creation of stub articles for each missing article in each state's list of towns and list of suburbs? But before this, do you think it is worth starting a new wiki project to assist with this kind of decision-making and collaboration? — Донама 05:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to mention -- this ties in with the above discussion about the superimpose template and some discussion I saw somewhere earlier about automatically applying the "coor d/dm/dms" template to Australian towns and cities, where it's absent, with values sourced from www.ga.gov.au. — Донама 05:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. For exmaple, in the Perth articles, the LGA and their associated suburb are still lumped together. I think they should be split.ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! - review me 05:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Being so envious of the organisation of the Dutch municipalities project, I went ahead and created "Aussie Cities and Towns" (

Please help in setting it up if you're interested in getting some nationwide standardisation (or even just guidelines, nice-looking templates, etc) of town and city articles happening. I wrote in the scope that this new project would explicitly absorb any standards we've already developed for the cities, and to have a special focus on how to standardise the articles about communities with smaller populations. — Донама 07:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Now that the bulk of the event is over - check out the 'Beaconsfield, Tasmania' changes in the last two weeks, as well as the changes to 'Richard Carleton', and the entire article

And opposite is today's featured article: Flag of Australia. I didn't even know it was an FA! --Scott Davis ^Talk 11:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, Age of Umpires is the uncyclopedia main page article. (Not really Australia-related, but close...) Andjam 14:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know of an online list of all the islands (inhabited and uninhabited) in the Torres Strait Islands? Wikipedia could use one. --

Try http://www.ga.gov.au and http://www.multimap.com in conjunction with each other. --Phenss 12:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how many Australian portals there are in other wikipedias, but the Italian wikipedia has just opened one, at

There are apparently Polish and German ones too: de:Portal:Australien, pl:Portal:Australia — Донама 02:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I notice that the controversial students association at the University of New England has bitten the dust and been wound up. This makes several of our articles (most of which needed cleanup anyway) out of date. Would someone be able to fix up this mess? Rebecca 04:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It struck me this morning that 2006 Australian federal budget mightn't make for a bad article. Anyone else agree? Rebecca 04:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Wouldn't it have to be 2006-2007, however? I've written a couple of Wikinews articles that may be relevant also.

Dysprosia

04:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I have the budget papers in front of me right now, and probably 2006-07 is best. Here are a few dot points to get us started:

• oodles of cash available temporarily
• it has been spread far and wide
• eveyone is a winner...
• ...except of course the leader of the opposition.

ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)

05:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Lankiveil 05:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Enjoy your two sandwiches and a milkshake this year. enochlau (talk) 02:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

• Kim Beazley has some room to manouvre then. Capitalistroadster 05:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I am interested in the possibility of adding an image from the

• Generally images that require permission and have non-commerical clauses should not be uploded to Wikipedia. But in this case both of those images were published in Australia prior to 1955, and are in the public domain in Australian, just tag them {{
  Peta
  01:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I've uploaded the better of the two pics (and the one with a publishing date)
    Harro5
    09:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Looks good, you might wat to crop off the surrounding white space, using microsoft paint or something similar so it looks better as a thumbnail.--
      Peta
      09:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
      • I cropped it, straightened it a little and ran it through the auto contrast filter. --
        Hezza but that is now a redirect to Michael Heseltine. The article is now called Gazza (nickname). It had a very UK slant to it, but after I rased debate on Talk:Hezza, it has more of an Australian slant. I suspect the UK use started after The Adventures of Barry McKenzie film. Gazza (nickname) is a terrible name for this article. If we can not find a better title, I think the article will have to be deleted. --Bduke
        02:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

        Redirect Bazza to Barry (name), Gazza to Garry, etc. I know many might disagree with this, but frankly I'd have no time for these. In the international scheme of things, the Aussie habit of shortening "xxxxx" to "xxza" or to "xxxxs" should be documented but I don't think all the possible cases can be documented. Could redirect it to the existing article about Australian English and add it as a section there perhaps? — Донама 03:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

        One problem is that the main editor of the article thinks that recent British useage, about politicians, such as Tony Blair saying "I prefer Prezza to Hezza" is more notable than Australian useage. --Bduke 05:02, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

        May well be -- add it to the article about British English I say :) —

        Big Abalone, Melbourne

        Is this Melbourne landmark notable? There's an image of it here-- Longhair