Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 13

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May 13

Category:Kiwi slang

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Kiwi slang to Category:New Zealand slang
Nominator's rationale: Rename. Change adjective to standard usage to match parent Category:New Zealand culture. (Or do we want to use a slang term to describe the slang category?) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - she'll be right. Rename per above, though at the moment I wonder just how much NZ slang we have here. I'm sure that between them the scarfies, mooloos and jafas will be able to come up with a handful more words that belong in here, though. Grutness...wha? 01:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, I'll see if I can find a few members for it myself... Grutness...wha? 02:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per
    PasswordUsername (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Rename per nom. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom. -- Avenue (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American heiresses

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Listify. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Category:American heiresses (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Delete. First, note that
WP:CLN suggests it should be (in a not-a-policy-but-a-guideline-kind-of-way). Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • "Heiress" does not mean "American socialite who married into the European peerage". It means "female who inherited property". The idea that we need to have a list of either the former or the latter is ridiculous, as either of them is trivia. I'll refrain from commenting on silly remarks, since considering the source I'd be here for hours if I were to document just the silliest of them.
    talk) 13:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Delete even poor people can be heiresses - just means that they have inherited something (perhaps a cherished photo or a pile of debts rather than the Rolls and the chalet in Saas Fe).Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the meaning is I think those where the inherited wealth is a considerable part of the notability.Seems a sensible category. DGG (talk) 23:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • That might have been the intention, but the category name of "American heiresses" in no way mandates that limitation, which is why this is not a sensible category. Postdlf (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and per prior deletion of Category:Heiresses; would literally apply to far more people than is interesting or useful. Postdlf (talk) 21:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Guru of Calm

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Category:The Guru of Calm (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Delete. A category for an obscure pseudonym is too narrow a scope. Currently contains just a single article. --Stepheng3 (talk) 21:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom.
    PasswordUsername (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Queen (band) box sets

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Upmerge and delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Queen (band) box sets (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Overcategorization between Category:Box sets and Category:Queen (band) albums. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom.
PasswordUsername (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nursing skills

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (I would have thought that what nurses do varies considerably from place-to-place and health-care system to health-care system, but never mind ....) Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest merging Category:Nursing skills to Category:Medical skills
Nominator's rationale: Merge - there do not appear to be a sufficient number of articles that are specifically about "nursing skills" that are not also "medical skills" to warrant a separate category Full disclosure, I just created the target category today.
talk) 18:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Keep These seem distinctive enough. Johnbod (talk) 19:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Can someone convince me that skills as used here is not rather ambiguous and POV. Why is Category:First aid included here? This is something that everyone probably has, especially anyone in any medical profession so exactly how is that defining for nurses? Vegaswikian (talk) 20:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - there is considerable difference between the skills required to nurse and those required to be a medic. In answer to Vegaswikian, not all members of the clinical professions are trained in first aid and as a result I agree that Category:First aid does not belong as a subcat. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Nurses and medical staff undergo different training and have different areas of responsibility; although with a significant overlap. 'Medical skills' is probably too vague: is it intended just for doctors or the whole area of medicine? Twiceuponatime (talk) 12:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Nursing is a particular barnch of medical work with its own spceific skills. Peterkingiron (talk) 00:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Toronto Blue Jays 1st round picks

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge/delete as nominated, and leaving the door open to future nominations on draft pick categories. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest merging Category:Toronto Blue Jays 1st round picks to Category:Toronto Blue Jays draft picks
Suggest deleting Category:New York Islanders first round draft picks
Nominator's rationale: Merge/Delete - per the
talk) 17:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Category:Toronto Blue Jays draft picks seems to be without an appropriate parent except for the general team category. Is that a category we want kept, rather than listifying? Is there an intent to categorize the draft picks of all teams? Though (as far as I understand this subject) this would result in at most one category per player, they would then be categorized by the same team twice—first for being drafted by it, and then for playing for it. Except to the extent that draft picks don't end up playing for the teams but are instead kept in the minors...how often do we have articles on such players? Postdlf (talk) 22:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a fairly extensive draft picks categorization scheme although unless I missed them these are the only two team-specific 1st round categories (there are some league-level 1st rounder categories, though). Per
    talk) 04:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Images and media for deletion

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Yes, I know there is no opposition to this, but seeing as it is part of xfd and currently contains over 10K images, I would like to get more input before making the change. Kbdank71 14:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Images and media for deletion to Category:Files for deletion and Category:Archived image and media for deletion discussions to Category:Archived files for deletion discussions
Nominator's rationale: To match the renamed parent
Wikipedia:Files for deletion, of course. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 17:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Green politicians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming to Category:Green (political parties) politicians
Nominator's rationale: Rename - current name is too generic as "green" is shorthand for anything or anyone considered environmentally friendly. Rename establishes that this is for politicians who are members of a party called "Green". Now technically this category could be seen as overcategorization by shared name as the Green party of one country may have nothing in common with the Green party of another so deletion or merger may also be on the table.
talk) 16:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Comment Category:Green politicians by nationality would be consistent with Category:People by political orientation and nationality. There is certainly standing precedent for super categories linking politicians around the world from the same points of the spectrum. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The issue I have with not specifying that this is a party affiliation and not a political orientation is the generic nature of "green". Al Gore undoubtedly considers himself to be "green" in the "environmentally conscious" aspect of the term but shouldn't be categorized as a "green politician" because of the muddle it would cause.
      talk) 18:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
      ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Korzlor sockpuppets

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete
talk) 00:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Proposed deletion of:
Nominator's rationale: All of the above categories are largely or entirely redundant to
WT:SPI#Question over tagging sock IPs, it seems rather clear that these categories should be depopulated and deleted. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 12:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Whitenoise123

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete
talk) 00:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Propose deletion of Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Whitenoise123 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This category is largely or entirely redundant to
WT:SPI#Question over tagging sock IPs. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 12:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Watergate

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Watergate to Category:Watergate scandal
Nominator's rationale: To match the main article; current name implies it's about the hotel, not the scandal at the hotel. Sceptre (talk) 11:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Rename, although it appears there are no articles in this category that are merely about the Watergate complex itself and not the scandal. Maybe there are no such articles to begin with. --Closeapple (talk) 14:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom for clarity & to match main article. Johnbod (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 22:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per above; the creator clearly wasn't thinking carefully. Postdlf (talk) 22:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename so that water supply gates to medieval fortifications are not categorized in it. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 03:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per 76.66.202.139.
    PasswordUsername (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Rename, "Watergate scandal" is the proper classification. --
    talk) 20:41, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

University of Teesside

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:University of Teesside to Category:Teesside University
Propose renaming Category:People associated with the University of Teesside to Category:People associated with Teesside University
Propose renaming Category:Academics of the University of Teesside to Category:Academics of Teesside University
Propose renaming Category:Alumni of the University of Teesside to Category:Alumni of Teesside University
Nominator's rationale: Rename all, the university has changed the name. The main article is now at Teesside University. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Donnie Darko

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Donnie Darko (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Unnecessary category - it only includes six entries: the two films, the soundtrack, the film studio, the director (why not the stars?), and cellar door, which briefly mentions the film. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Nursing ethics

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: speedy
C2 by Neutrality (talk · contribs).
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Suggest merging Category:Nursing ethics to Category:Medical ethics
Nominator's rationale: Merge - There do not appear to be any articles other than
talk) 04:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Industrial disasters

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Industrial disasters to Category:Industrial accidents and incidents
Nominator's rationale: Rename - "disaster" is subjective and POV. "Accidents and incidents" is objective. Renaming would parallel the
talk) 04:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • I don't agree that the entire disasters category tree needs to be considered at once. I'm not an expert in the field but my guess is that there is more likely to be some objective standard as to what constitutes, for instance a natural disaster than what constitutes, say, a mining disaster or a fishing disaster, so some portions of the tree are acceptable while others may not be.
    talk) 21:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • We also seem to have a pretty clear notion on the whole
    talk) 21:27, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • That's not what I meant about having a handle on hat "incident" means for categorization purposes. What I'm saying is that there appears to be no rush to add run-of-the-mill actions by businesses to the nominated category.
    talk) 04:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Except of course there has been, as noted, no mad dash to categorize run-of-the-mill activities or actions within any category currently named "incident" so your evidence that such a dash will take place if this is renamed is...what exactly?
    talk) 03:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • It's not about making anything "feel nicer", whatever that might mean. It's about trying to be as objective as possible in category naming. A disaster to one person or organization is not a disaster to another. South Korea probably thought that
    talk) 04:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Wow, it's been over a decade since someone played the PC card on me! Nostalgia, good times! Political correctness has nothing to do with it. It's about NPOV. Please, offer up an NPOV definition of "industrial disaster".
    talk) 13:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • "Tragic" is POV. "Occurring at industrial companies" is overly limiting. "Caused by...negligence or incompetence" requires original research and is POV.
    talk) 21:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Your definition excludes for example
    talk) 21:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • very small events should not be having Wikipedia articles - wow, can I quote you on this in the endless stream of trivia articles you want kept at AFD? Seriously, I never thought I would see the day when you would acknowledge that something was too unimportant for its own WP article. Sadly, "smallness" is not the criteria for WP articles.
    talk) 16:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

partial Jewish descent

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Argentines of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This page lists Argentine citizens of partial ethnic Jewish ancestry. For those of full ancestry or who self-identify themselves as "Argentine Jews" or "Jewish(-)Argentines," see Category:Argentine Jews.
Category:Australians of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This is a list of notable Australians who have some Jewish ancestry but are not practicing Jews.
Category:Canadians of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This page lists
Jews for whatever reason including having paternal but not maternal Jewish ancestry. Active Jews should be placed into subcategory Category:Canadian Jews
.
Category:Dutch people of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This page lists American citizens of partial ethnic Jewish ancestry. For those of full ancestry or who self-identify themselves as "Dutch Jews," see Category:Dutch Jews.
Category:English people of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:French people of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Italians of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This category is for Italians with Jewish ancestry who do not self-identify as Jews.
Category:Mexicans of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This page lists Mexican citizens of partial ethnic Jewish ancestry. For those of full ancestry or who self-identify themselves as "Mexican Jews" or "Jewish(-)Mexicans," see Category:Mexican Jews.
Category:Russians of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This page lists Russian citizens of partial ethnic Jewish ancestry. For those of full ancestry or who self-identify themselves as "Russian Jews" or "Jewish(-)Russians," see Category:Russian Jews.
Category:Slovenians of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:South Africans of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
South African citizens of partial Jewish descent.
Category:Spaniards of Jewish descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This page lists Spanish people of partial ethnic Converso ancestry. For those of full ancestry or who self-identify themselves as "conversos" see Category:Conversos.
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Violates Wikipedia categorization policy and guidelines.
  • Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Categories requires:
    • Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless two criteria are met:
      • The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or orientation in question;
      • The subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.
  • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage
    requires:
    • In addition to the requirement of verifiability, living people must have self-identified as a particular heritage, while historical persons may be identified by notable association with a single heritage.
      • Heritage categories should not be used to record people based on deduction, inference, residence, surname, nor any partial derivation from one or more ancestors.
      • The place of birth is rarely notable.
  • Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories
    requires:
The basis for creating such a category is not the number of individuals who could potentially be filed in the group, but whether there's a specific cultural context for the grouping beyond the mere fact that [persons] of that ethnic background happen to exist.
  1. Self-identification is required. These categories are never for self-identification.
  2. Partial ancestry is not allowed. These categories are only for partial ancestry.
  3. It is the established policy of Wikipedia that such categories shall not exist.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, or at least keep most of them. These are actegories for people of Jewish descent who do not have any confessional connection with Judaism; of course, people included on a dubious basis have to be removed, but this does not mean the whole category is meaningless. There is absolutely no consistency in the arguments for deletion: why keep the category Italians of German descent, and remove Italians of Jewish descent? If your argument is that this category is already subsumed in the category Italian Jews, I object on two basis. First, Italian Jews (as well as American Jews, Spanish Jews, etc.) refers only to people who are Jewsih not only by ethnicity but also by religion or at least of some sort of conscious religious Jewish affiliation. The category Italians of Jewish descent, on the other hand, refers to people whose Jewsih ancestry is self-recognized and important, but do not belong to the Jewish community. This is not an exceptional case. For example, we have the category Italians of Slovenian descent, and we also have the category Italian Slovenes. These two almost never overlap: Italian Slovenes are members of the Slovenian community/minority in Italy, while Italians of Slovenian descent is used for individuals who do not belong to this community, but whose Slovenian descent is nevertheless important, in some cases crucial, part of their identity. On the same line of argument, the category Hungarians of Slovak descent is for those Hungarians nationals who primarily identified with the Hungarian nation, but consciously acknowledged their Slovak ancestry (such as Sandor Petofi). On the other side, the category Hungarian Slovaks (which does not yet exist, but might be created in the future) would be for the members of the Slovak minority in Hungary. Both are Hungarian citizens, but there is a clear difference between the two. I see a clear parallel between these examples... As for the notion of partial descent, it should be used cum grano salis, as virtually nobody is of pure-blooded ancestry, so to say. Partial ancestry is referred to cases of over-categorizations when a small and non-important geneological data is elevated to the level of a category. I agree that these cases must be avoided, but this can only be established inidividually. You can't just remove a whole category because of potential abuses. Viator slovenicus (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There are people who don't identify themselves as Jews, but acknowledge their Jewish descent as an integral part of their identity. Viator slovenicus (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Viator: It is hard to see any logic in your argument. There are people who claim to have met space aliens but that does not mean that obejectively, truthfully, rationally and logically speaking aliens exist or that people's claims to have seen them are true. People claim all sorts of things about themselves, but they are neither experts in Judaism nor are they truly Jewish quite often by any meanigful standard. Wikipedia must strive to function by the objective and accepted standards of each recognized field that can be verified and sourced according to the field in question, such as relating to Jews and Judaism in this case, and not by hearsay or allegations by non-experts. There are people who claim to be the descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes and there is even a Category:Groups claiming Jewish descent, but for an outside editor on Wikipedia to sit in judgment on notable personalities and place people in "definitive" categories of being "Jewish" when it is just an arbitrary, illogocal, irrational, untruthfull guess or assumption often based on ignorance of both what classical Judaism terms a Jew according to its own laws, history and customs or what all scholars can agree upon is a Jewish person and most often that too is based on Judaism's own classical 3000+ year-old strictly Biblical criteria and not by what a category-happy Wikipedian editor decides in blogger-like carelessness. And there is absolutely no connection between the supposed "Jewishness" of most of the people in these categories and their professions and vice versa. IZAK (talk) 03:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You may not see the logic in an argument, but that does not mean people do not do it. People are often illogical. I clearly recognize that I have Jewish ancestry, but would never describe myself as being a Jew and few others would. Anyway, we have most other groups recognized as having descent, so why not Jews. Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a religion, so there are people who clearly have Jewish ancestry, will accept such, but in no way, shape or form are they Jews. The fact that there are people who get put in these categories means that there is a value in having them. This is cearly true of the French and the Polish categories.67.149.100.213 (talk) 00:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi 67.149.100.213: Why not register and get a regular user's name or use your regular ID if you already have one, that way your comments will carry greater credibility. Appealing to the emotions is not an alibi or excuse when conducting a rational discussion or when composing an encyclopedia. For far too long there has been ongoing abuse on Wikipedia (mainly through crass ignorance) of the notion that Jews are an ethnicity (which is true in an abstract manner relating mainly to strict Jewish law) but it has been flogged to death in the wrong way and stretched far beyond any reasonable and logical standards so that if someone allegedly had a Jewish ancestor a hundred years ago or was called "Jewish" by a celebrity magazine or in some journal or book in one line (that totally disregards Judaism and what being Jewish really means in an active meaningful way) they become "notable" Jews no less than the chief rabbis of Israel or the rabbis of the Talmud. Jews and Judaism are connected so that to place anyone in these categories implies that they were fully aware of this connection, subscribed to it and presumably fully (self) identified as such, which they did not. It would be safe to say that 99.99% of the "Jews" in these categories did not have much to do with Jews or with Judaism during their lifetimes. Many of them are in fact not considered Jewish by classical Jewish law and they had little or no formal or even informal contact with the Jewish people or with Judaism, yet now they become enthroned as examples of full-fledged "Jews" on Wikipedia no less than the most fervent of Hasidim -- what kind of logic is that? A category is valid to be labelled as Jewish if people in it are either CLEARLY profesionally and directly spiritually, and logically and historically, tied in with Judaism, Jews and the Jewish people, such as Category:Rabbis, and one can then have Category:Rabbis by nationality and Category:Rabbis by geography, who are both directly part of the Jewish religion (Judaism) and/or are clearly Jews by (self) identity and profession that's accurate. Ethnicity is a nice notion but it has limits when applied to Jews and right now it's being applied in ways that neither Jews nor Judaism, and not even by most accepted academic scholarship (except for the Nazis of course), ever meant it to be or become as it has so far with these mistaken categories. IZAK (talk) 08:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Dear user IZAK, if you don't see any logic in my argument, I suggest you try harder. There are people who have a Jewish ancestry (say, a Jewish father), and while not professing their Jewishness, acknowledge it as part of their identity.
        1. Theodor W. Adorno is one case among many (in the Englis wp, he is categorized simply as a German Jew, shich I think is somehow problematic).
        2. From my own national context, I could point out the writer Dušan Šarotar, whose maternal grandfather was Jewish. He is himself not a Jew, but his Jewish ancestry plays an important role in his literature, and he frequently emphasizes his family's story as a source of reflection and inspiration. I believe it would be incorrect to categorize him as a Slovenian Jew, because he is objectively and subjectively not; but he IS of Jewish descent, and this is an important part of his identity.
        As for your arguments, you pointed out possible misuses of the categorization; but potential misuse is not a strong enough argument for deletion. Best regards, Viator slovenicus (talk) 14:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The issue isn't logic, it's encyclopedic value.
          1. Theodor W. Adorno mentions only that his father had an unknown Jewish grandparent, that his father followed "Protestantism" (unspecified sect) and mother was "Catholic" (unspecified sect), with no encyclopedic references. Certainly, he may have been classified a German Jew by a Nazi (no reference to that, either), but Wikipedia has a policy not to classify folks in such a way. There's no information on self-identification, nor its importance to his work!
          2. Dušan Šarotar is a stub, with no encyclopedic references of any kind to his ethnic self-identification. It refers to a novel "based on the true story of Šarotar's grandfather." So, maybe the grandfather was a Holocaust survivor, but we don't know of what kind. Therefore, categorizing him "of Jewish descent" is original research of the worst sort, a violation of at least 3 different formal Wikipedia policies!
          --William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dear User:William Allen Simpson, I'll provide the necessary sources for Šarotar; he has frequently pointed out his family story in interviews, and the impact of the (belated) awarness of his partially Jewsih ancestry on his work. As for the importance of Adorno's partial Jewish ancestry to his work, I think it's evident for anybody familiar with it, so I believe the authors of the article will have no problem in providing the necessary references (I might suggest you mention the issue in the talk page of the article). Viator slovenicus (talk) 00:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unnecessary race/ethnicity/religion category. Partial ancestry of subjective criteria is of no use to anyone and is certainly not encyclopedic. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Jewish descent may be purely an ethnicity or it may refer to practising Jewish religion. These are disticnt concepts and might have separate categories. There are hundreds of categories for Booians of Fooian descent. Jewish descent should be no different from any other. It is legitimate for a person to be categorised with several different such categories if of mixed ethnicity. The illegitimate aspect of the categorisiation scheme under discussion is the "partial descent" aspect, which I consider overcategorisiation. British Jews should be for British people of Jewish religion or self-identifying as Jewish. British people of Jewish descent would include those not of Jewish reliogion with Jewish ancestors (but without the <50% test). The child of a Jewish mother and other father is regarded by Jewish law as a Jew, even if the maternal grandfather was also non-Jewish. Note: British ethnic categories are not usually split into English, Scottish, Welesh and Northern Irish. Accordingly, these categories should be upmerged. Peterkingiron (talk) 00:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, it is not "legitimate for a person to be categorised with several different such categories if of mixed ethnicity." Many things are possible here, but that is explicitly against policy. While your part of the world may consist of editors above reproach, there's a reason for the many detailed restricts on such categories (detailed above):
      1. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 23#British "ethnic" categories again:
        No African or Caribbean or Asian or Indian immigrant is referred to as "English", no matter how long they or their generations have lived here.
      2. IIRC, that comment turned out to be from somebody in the US. A few months later, a Virginia political candidate was disgraced after publicly calling a person "Macaca" twice.
      3. Folks with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 Black ancestry have been categorized as "African American" without any verifiability. I don't want to go back to the days where folks were called "
        octaroon
        ".
      4. Likewise, Jewish ancestry in these categories.
      --William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Libertarianism by quality

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest merging Category:Libertarianism by quality to Category:Libertarianism articles by quality
Nominator's rationale: Trying to get the 1.0 Assessment bot working, need these categories in a consistent and clear hierarchy.  Skomorokh  01:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 01:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:RTHK

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Category:RTHK (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Delete or Rename - either delete as a
talk) 00:08, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
Rename to clarify the scope. I see possibilities for future expansion. --Stepheng3 (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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