Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 10

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October 10

Category:Faye Dunaway

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete Timrollpickering (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I'm not sure an actor with only a filmography and a list of awards page needs an eponymous category; otherwise, there should be a lot more of such categories. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 22:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Articles using Template:The Interviews people/title/name

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete Timrollpickering (talk) 18:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Automatic categorization into Category:Articles using Template:The Interviews people (0) seems unnecessary, because it can be replaced by using Special:WhatLinksHere. Two related categories for "title" and "name" templates are unused by accident, as per discussion on user Trivialist's talk page, and can be removed as well. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Editor's pronouns templates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus.
(non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 19:54, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Since these templates are only relevant for internal communication with Wikipedia's editors, I think the "Wikipedia" prefix is needed. Also, I'm not sure if the proposed name is good enough, so feel free to propose better names. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 21:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:53, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:University of the People alumni

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus.
(non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 19:55, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: this category was created five years ago for just one person: does it still make sense? In the meantime, it was also used to claim that Simone Biles was an alumna of the "University of the People", which is a hoax because she just recorded a couple of commercials (in the form of "interviews") but she actually never studied at this online school (see also https://www.uopeople.reviews/simone-biles/). Dom21a (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree that a single-article category does not make sense just by itself. This might fall under the "smallcat exception rule" though (as part of a full tree). Marcocapelle (talk) 14:37, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified my !vote above.- RevelationDirect (talk) 12:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Video games about brothers

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 18#Category:Video games about brothers

Category:International Digital Organization for Scientific Information academic journals

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: No Consensus to Delete

However, the main reasons noted for keeping as a category (rather than a list article or a Wikipedia-space page) is apparently to allow for bot usage -

WP:CITEWATCH, which is tied to a WikiProject. That presumably makes this a project (maintenance) category. See also Wikipedia:Categorization#For maintenance
.

As was noted in the discussion, text should then be added to the Cat to make it clear this is a project (maintenance) category. Please feel free to add such explanatory text. And I'm going to add Template:Tracking category as a first step. If there is a more appropriate banner template, feel free to swap it out.

Several suggested a rename - but no suggested rename had consensus. - jc37 18:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: This is a category of non-notable journals, published by a non-notable organisation, that all redirect back to this category - therefore blue-linking them in other articles when it is not warranted. SailingInABathTub ~~🛁~~ 16:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep per previous dicussions, e.g.
    b} 16:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The rationale used in previous deletion discussions amounts to
WP:ITSUSEFUL, we already have a way of showing that a journal or a publisher is not notable, and that is by not having an article on them. We don't need non-notable categories of non-notable journals, just to say that they aren't notable. SailingInABathTub ~~🛁~~ 17:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
And this nomination brings no new argument forward, nor is this category any different than every other one like it.
b} 18:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:NLIST issues with this category are worth discussing. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:17, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Missed @
b} 21:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Yup - 14 - content not suitable for an encyclopaedia, specifically Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. A category of non-notable products from a non-notable company created through circular redirects to circumvent
WP:NCORP is not encyclopaedic. Imagine if this was applied to any other non-notable enterprise, like crypto-company categories with crypto-currency redirects ... SailingInABathTub ~~🛁~~ 01:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
That's what I was guessing about your view, but I don't think I can agree. I can't find any sources about this publisher, so I assume it's non-notable (but I'm not skilled at finding sources about publishers, so my search is not conclusive). But I'm not convinced that this category is actually "an indiscriminate collection of information", either.
WP:IINFO
discourages book/film plots, song lyrics, statistics, and lists of software updates. It does not – and I suspect it is not mean to – ban lists or categories of periodicals that are frequently cited on wiki.
As much as I hate the idea of creating articles when we can't find independent sources for them, there is a practical utility in having a minimal amount of information available to editors for basically all newspapers and all academic journals that can be read online. Even if the only information is "The Mulberry Advance is a newspaper in Mulberry, Kansas" or "Journal of Importance is a journal published by Dodgy, Inc.", there is a real, and therefore not indiscriminate, value in helping editors find that information.
And since we're all thinking about academic journals, I hope that some of you will help me fill in some of the blanks at List of MDPI academic journals. There are a few missing ISSNs, and journals less than five years old probably need a "not available" note in the column for impact factors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@
b} 01:35, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
there is on policy prohibiting these categories
WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Thryduulf (talk) 07:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
@
b} 01:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks Headbomb, you make a very good point about the bot, and I had forgotten about that. I agree strongly that we should be able to automate the deprecation of predatory journal citation. In that light, I'm thinking seriously of changing my comment to "keep". However, before I do, I'd like to discuss whether the bot can be made to take a list of some sort entered into its database of sources to block. Is it programmed only to work from categories? Can it be revised? (I did look at your comments [1] and at User:JL-Bot/Questionable.cfg before commenting, and I recognize that it might require some effort, but I'm not sure that it can or cannot be made to work.) Also, it might make sense to rename the category as Category:IDOSI entries for WP:CITEWATCH, a maintenance category. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Headbomb, maybe the category page needs a clear explanation, e.g., "If you delete this category or remove pages from it, CITEWATCH will break". (I'd rather not rename the cat. There are already three citations in the cat's description page, and I'd personally judge it to be slightly less than notable. But IMO it's borderline, and if it becomes notable, and we renamed now, we'd have to re-rename then – a fair bit of work for something that might be settled through simpler means.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I like WAID's idea of adding a clarification. I would see that as the minimum that needs to be done. I'm assuming (absent an answer to my question) that a list might not work. I'm willing to say keep, conditionally on a clarifying sentence and/or a rename as above. Absent any such action, I'd lean towards delete. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a list article in the wrong namespace not a true navigational category. That's why it has an intro and citations and why you (correctly) claimed none of the
    WP:NLIST does apply though. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:07, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Or if a list is not appropriate either, then to a page in Wikipedia space, as part of
    WP:CITEWATCH. After all, keeping the content is mainly for the sake of CITEWATCH. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
That won't work.
b} 07:15, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Misplacing references into the category space is a symptom of the problem here, not the solution. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Category/Move Contents to Draft Article Space The issue here isn't redirect categories, it's starting a list article in the category space. Misplacing footnotes on the bottom of a category may make this verifiable but it doesn't show notability like an article would. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Editors in the above discussion, including me, seem to believe that the subject is not notable, and therefore an article is not viable. Your !vote therefore amounts to recommending that we copy the information into a wiki page, delete the category (...which will makes these anti-pseudoscience scripts break) as no longer being necessary since it's been replaced by the wiki page, and then we can delete the page as being non-notable. If your goal is to keep this information out of Wikipedia, then there are simpler and faster ways to go about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:52, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any unspoken agenda to remove this content. Rather, I was seeking to move the list article to the correct namespace in a sincere hope that
WP:NLIST could be addressed there. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Moving the list into the mainspace doesn't require deleting the cat. In fact, if we thought that we could sustain an article against notability objections on this subject, then that would demonstrate that we should keep the cat. I'm not convinced that we can, but I think it's borderline. It might be possible.
So I wonder: If you have believed for several years that the best approach is to create an article with this content, then why haven't you done that? Also, why would anyone vote to delete a cat like this for a subject they genuinely believe to be notable? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:19, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The sequencing is that you need a main article that is
WP:NLIST
needs to be established in the list article prior to the creation of a category.
I have believed for several years that you should not create redirects without first having an article to point them to so I've consistently refrained from doing that. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:14, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compromise? There are editors who want to improve the encyclopedia by making sure CITEWATCH does not break. And there are other editors who want to improve the encyclopedia by making sure the category space doesn't do an end run around
    WP:N. That's why these nominations keep going. Back in the larger 2019 nomination I proposed making these categories hidden and moving them under Category:Wikipedia redirects which, per BHG's close of that nom, came close to being the outcome. Is there still an appetite for that middle ground? - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
There is clearly a case for maintaining a list of predatory publications on Wikipedia (such as at User:JzG/Predatory, where I note that a large number of these publications do not receive this treatment). But a category that only exists because it is populated by mainspace redirects that are placed in it, and where the redirects would not have a valid target without said category, is clearly unconstructive from the perspective of building an encyclopaedia. SailingInABathTub ~~🛁~~ 12:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So long as making the category hidden doesn't affect
WP:CITEWATCH, I endorse that with my keep !vote. TartarTorte 18:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
@
WP:5P1. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:28, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
The list article could work in theory. The issue is that the notability of that article is very dubious, so if it gets deleted, things need to be converted back to the category. This is true for all these publishers. They're only notable in bulk, not individually.
b} 07:17, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
@
WP:NLIST. But perhaps I misunderstood you? Would lists of academic publishers limited by, I dunno, state or country or discipline or type) have secondary sources to establish notability? I'm wondering if that's a more workable approach than a list article per publisher.- RevelationDirect (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
The issue is if such a list gets made, and redirects point to the list, and then the list (and redirects to it get deleted), then that's no different than deleting the category and all its redirects. In both cases
b} 16:03, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Wow! Just, wow! Here I was wasting my breath trying to find common ground to reach a consensus. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:43, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then that wouldn't work.
    b} 22:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Why does it need renaming? The current name is accurate.
    b} 22:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • The rename target that I suggested above was Category:IDOSI entries for WP:CITEWATCH, which I think is a more succinct and less kludgy name. It would be a maintenance category, instead of an IAR mainspace category. There are two issues here that seem the most important to me. One is to not break CITEWATCH, and this rename would satisfy that. The other is that the category really should not be the kind of category that it is currently, and I continue to think it should be deleted if it remains as it is. There is no reason to IAR when there is actually a perfectly good fix for the problem. Even if the current name is "accurate", there are better name choices that are, in fact, more accurate. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Death care industry

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Funeral-related industry. bibliomaniac15 17:09, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Manual merge. Unnecessary layer where the lead article was given as
Death care, but this redirected to a US-specific article. The result will bring "death care companies" and funeral directors (individuals) under a common parent. I suggest that Category:Cremation be added into Category:Undertaking, so Category:Crematoria need not be separately added there. – Fayenatic London 12:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 14:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge both to
    statutory undertakers and as such allowed to dig up roads to lay pipes. Undertaker/ing is thus best avoided. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:02, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as Category:Undertaking was just tagged.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 06:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I prefer the proposed merge to Category:Undertaking. All of the "industry" proposals are very ...rich-person-centric? It definitely doesn't feel neutral. In most of the world, and throughout most of history, undertaking is something that families and communities did for themselves. You wash the body yourself, you dress (or undress) the body yourself, you carry the body to the grave/cremation site yourself. Maybe you buy a coffin, but maybe you make it yourself. Maybe you can afford to buy a grave marker, and maybe you can't. I've seen graves marked by a puddle of concrete in which someone wrote the person's name and dates with a stick. Weathered homemade wooden markers may be the despair of cemetery maintenance staff and historians, but sometimes the choice was, and still is, between a piece of wood and nothing. There's no "industry" inherent in burying people, and putting this word in the cat's name is commenting rather disparagingly on a particular subset of the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undertaking is an ambiguous word. Rathfelder (talk) 10:10, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename/merge both to Category:Funeral-related industry per Peterkingiron (Undertaking is ambiguous). — Qwerfjkltalk 21:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename/merge to Category:Funeral-related industry. GenuineArt (talk) 03:44, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The word for "funeral-related" is funerary. So if that's the route you all wish to go, then it should be Category:Funerary industry (as a subcat of Category:Service industries. - jc37 19:21, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Medieval physicians of the Ottoman Empire

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 19:57, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. The subcategory is already part of Category:Physicians from the Ottoman Empire by century. Upon deletion of this category, the two articles in the subcategory (or at least Sabuncuoğlu Şerafeddin) should be added to Category:Physicians of the medieval Islamic world. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
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