Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 August 27

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27 August 2012

  • List of unreleased Lana Del Rey songs – Deletion endorsed. – T. Canens (talk) 13:36, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
List of unreleased Lana Del Rey songs (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore
)

I do not think a consensus was reached in the discussion. I think that the deletion should be reverted so that reliable and notable sources can be researched for the material in the article. The article should then be discussed at a later point. I think the subject of the article is notable and I would like to hear/read the opinions of other editors on this topic. marie (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I closed the AfD as delete because, while the decision was not unanimous, the arguments against deletion all rested on verifying the existence or notability of some limited number of items on the list; no editor addressed the relevant question, raised by those recommending deletion, that the overall topic itself is not notable. This is the standard required by
WP:N, it was present in their comments. Weighing the policy-compliance of the articles against the overall "number of votes", I that the net consensus was to delete. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
  • The topic was obviously notable when Huffington Post, Entertainment Weekly, etc. thought articles about multiple songs were notable. Some articles were about individual songs and some were about a group of songs deeming her unreleased music the subject set of the article. And I don't even see this being done with
    talk) 15:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Commenta Searching for others [1]" I see no particular consistency. The decisions at AfD seem to depend upon the participation more than anything rational. but this is not unusual for fan-related material, whether or not encyclopedic. Personally, I do not see the point of splitting this: a section in the discography would seem more sensible, I can also see a list of Songs written by ____, with a section for those released by other artists--that would be as standard a thing as any list of works by a writer, and I see no reason songwriters should be treated differently. We've currently been splitting such bibliography pages for literary authors, and I've even argued for it, but upon reflection I think they might be better as an integral part of the main article, which would avoid duplication , as many works will be covered there also. That the Britney Spears list is FL seems very odd to me, especially with its unnecessary & duplicative use of color for what is shown perfectly by the symbols used also. DGG ( talk ) 16:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (Please note I took part in both previous nominations). This discussion should be taken in context with
    List of Lana Del Rey songs which was closed as keep by the same admin. Subject to WP guidelines and policies, there is nothing in the deleted list that couldn’t and shouldn’t be in “kept” article. That was my position in the first nomination, but due to closing admin’s comments, The result was no consensus. No prejudice toward a future merge discussion., not the second nomination. IMO this whole discussion was never really about content, but article title space and how to big up (and possibly do down) the artist. Finally as per DGG, not sure “unreleased” can exist in separate article space and a number have been deleted over the course of the AfDs for this list.--Richhoncho (talk) 16:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]

From

WP:LISTN
: "For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort." "A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles." ""Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent."

This article follows

talk) 02:07, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

The article had all of these bad links until I went through and removed all of them to show that there was nothing useful for the article because every other link was broken or did not show that the listed items do anything other than exist. Other articles are probably worse than the Lana Del Rey one, but they haven't been looked at. All I do know that from the Lana Del Rey page was that every news source that you added was no better than the YouTube bootlegs. The nature of sources always need to be looked at, beyond the fact that the publisher is considered reliable.—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keyword: HAD, the sources are notable. We've already discussed this so why are you bringing it up again? The sources included critical reception and not all had bootlegs. Your argument is invalid because I can go through every source on wikipedia and 99% of them, I can find a YouTube link to a bootleg on the website. End of conversation. --
talk) 03:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Sources cannot be notable. They can be
reliable. And this is in regards to the nature of the sources used on this article. Outside of dead links to song databases and two postings of demos to the official YouTube channel, all that's left are reliable sources posting links to illegally uploaded YouTube videos. And it's already been determined that we at Wikipedia cannot use those as sources. There was no critical reception of these songs. None were examined in any feature other than being "Hey, this is that cooky Lana Del Rey before she got famous", other than perhaps her cover of that one other song that wasn't even a single by another artist.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
You are very condescending and very wrong. I've already proved this wrong. You're a broken record - I'm out. But here's me proving you wrong, again. "Since Britney Spears and Lana Del Rey have basically the SAME references, except Lana Del Rey has more reliable* ones. Here's an example of
talk) 04:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
MRindustry, shouting does not make you more correct. Additionally, you may want to consider that, if a large number of experience WP users are telling you something, it is entirely possible that they may be right, and you are wrong. Also, it would help if you would try to understand what we're saying. No one is saying those aren't valid
WP:RS. We're saying that the consensus was that the topic as a whole has not been discussed. While individual unreleased songs of Lana del Rey have been the subject of coverage, there has not been any coverage of the concept of a body of work called "unreleased Lana del Rey songs". And that is what is required. Again, the analogy is this: I could produce a list of People who own Range Rovers. And I could find reliable sources for it--hundreds if I stuck only to people with WP articles, thousands if I included anyone. But that would not make the topic of "Ranger Rover Owners" itself notable. That is exactly what is happening here. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
You are incorrect. Her unreleased discography has been discussed in a set in various sources. & I was not shouting. Thanks so much!--
talk) 23:53, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Uhhhh - can't we all just get along? This thing isn't a "world-shaker" anyway. Delete it and be done with it
    talk) 10:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Category:Gay Wikipedians (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This category is obviously extremely important to many wikipedians. I came upon it, and saw that it was created as a redirect to Category:LGBT Wikipedians. I took it upon myself, without having knowledge that it was previously deleted, to remove the redirect, and add the category to a few gay-male-specific templates and userboxes; It immediately gained over 270 members with several others adding themselves over the next few days before User:VegaDark redirected it to Category:LGBT Wikipedians explaining to me that it had previously been discussed and deleted/redirected to the LGBT category.

To place everyone into the catch-all category of Category:LGBT Wikipedians is a gross disservice to all who belong within the community and diminishes the importance of the subgroup. I feel that every gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender wikipedian deserves to be able to freely use categories that enable them to find and collaborate with people of similar points-of-view, world-experience and a mutual understanding of the social and political issues that are not identical to each subgroup; an issue that is basically non-existent for the straight majority who, with little or no conscious effort are able to find others that share their world view by virtue of operating with a straight-is-default mentality. This is luxury that we lack and is only complicated by grouping /everyone/ into LGBT.

The closing argument by wikipedia administrator User: Xoloz stated Deletions endorsed. Prior deletions of other (more "mainstream") gender/sexuality categories do belie the accusations of bias here. The consensus below endorsed the uCfD determination that these "status" categories (like "signs of the zodiac") do not contribute value to the encyclopedia, and may harm it by introducing factionalism.

As stated above, the categories do indeed contribute value to the encyclopedia by allowing people to find and collaborate with those that share experiences, points of view and interests relevant to their current research and page projects. Comparing sexuality to a zodiac sign and a "status symbol" is an offensive diminution of the importance with which we hold our self-esteem and individuality.

As for the introduction of factionalism, there are many categories that do just that. In fact, by virtue of not being all-encompassing, every category technically creates a group of individuals that are and are not included. Does this mean that Religious Wikipedians shouldn't have an associated category? No, it doesn't. Ncboy2010 (talk) 12:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: -
Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Sexuality and gender identification/Category:Gay Wikipedians. -- Uzma Gamal (talk
)
  • Overturn or relist I see no issue with self-identification categories on Wikipedia. Encouraging users to express themselves freely without recourse should lead to a more collegial editing environment. And if ever a user's membership in this category were to cause concern concern, the scrutiny should then be applied at those making the judgement rather than those choosing to self-identify.ThemFromSpace 15:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Also noting that this category should be placed within the LGBT category, along with other similar categories of self-identification (bisexual, lesbian, etc) and that this category is appropriate because some members of the LGBT umbrella prefer a more specific label than the catchall term. ThemFromSpace 15:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn. If editors choose to describe themselves in various ways, knowing that can aid collaboration. I have consistently argued against social features on Wikipedia that detract from its mission as an encyclopedia, but the limited degree of interpersonal knowledge provided by categories that many people here and elsewhere consider critically important for self-definition can be helpful, if only to their feeling of community--and making clear our extraordinary diversity. Preventing their use for those who want to use them is in my opinion an undue intrusion into self-expression. (I agree with Vegadark that there are finer distinctions possible among both straight and gay, but there are advantages in not being overly specific--there is a point at which it would detract from our basic purpose.) DGG ( talk ) 17:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) I realise it may be considered an old saw by now, but it's no less true: We're not here for self-expression. We're here to collaboratively build an encyclopedia. And besides that, editors can "self-express" on their user page through a userbox or other userpage notice. Categories are for navigation. There is no collaborative need for such a category. - jc37 17:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    categories in mainspace are for navigation. Categories in user space are for collaboration. We are here to build content, but more specifically we are here to build content by working together. Self-expression is part of collaboration--we need at some level to some degree to know one another. I think to a very limited degree, but it would extend to basic things like this. DGG ( talk ) 21:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand that perspective, and would be empathetic to it, except that I have never seen "self-identification" categories used for anything more than attempts at canvassing/vote stacking at XfD. Plus, just because one may self-assert they are LGBT, doesn't mean they are interested in editing LGBT topics. We had several situations (zodiac being the largest) where it was made abundantly clear that most people in self-id cats are merely doing so for self-id reasons. Self-ID categories as such are thus merely vanity pages, and that falls afoul of
    WP:NOT. So with that in mind, we're better off having "interested in collaborating on X topic"-style categories. - jc37 23:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    "never seen "self-identification" categories used for anything more than..." Yes you have. See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 16, Neutral good Wikipedians. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry, I don't see the relevance to the link. I see an assertion (which was disagreed with) that thie cat in question was a "by editing philosophy" cat. And even if we were to accept the premise of the nom, that makes it a "how I will contribute" cat, as I note below. So it isn't relevant to this discussion AFAICT. - jc37 01:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Editing philosophy is a self-identification, and a relevant one at that, and absolutely nothig to do with canvassing of XfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy to hear that you have never encountered people using the inclusionist category to mass canvass. Or the "against notability" one, or the LGBT one, for that matter. On the other hand, I have seen it. Many many times. - jc37 04:21, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, I have seen it. But you seemed to suggesting that the *only* use of self-identification categories is canvassing of XfD. I dispute this as an exaggeration. I don’t however dispute that it can often be the case, nor that it is a serious concern, including for this category. I wonder, would it be workable if for self-identification catageories, if it were required that a case be made that it has a project-related purpose that is not for canvassing? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    That's the current requirement for all Wikipedian categories, per
    WP:USERCAT
    , and MANY prior discussions, and WP:NOT, for that matter. That they are to be used for a collborative purpose to build the encyclopedia.
    It's what I've said several times: We're all Wikipedians here, how do you want to help? And a person's race/ethnicity/descent and/or sexuality/gender and/or faith/philosophy/religion simply have no bearing on that. And honestly, I question whether it might actually be considered prejudiced to suggest that it does (I'm not saying anyone is, merely that it's an interesting question.) And that not even taking into account that we have "by interest" categories for topics related to these identifications, which makes all of these self-identification categories duplicative.
    I'll restate: These are just IWANTIT categories. With the followup: "If they get theirs, I want mine". It's all just possessive
    WP:OTHERSTUFF. - jc37 06:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
expansion of rationale I don't have the energy to type out all this, so I'd like to quote some of the things I'd like to say. "Just being gay does not mean they necessarily identify with people that are LBT, nor should they be forced to categorize with a larger group because of the lack of a scope they find acceptable."little green rosetta) For that reason, deleting the thing "is a gross disservice to all who belong within the community."(per undeletion nom) I confess I don't see any benefit to the deletion in the first place, and "I see no issue with self-identification categories on Wikipedia.(ThemFromSpace) Some have scoffed at the catagory as a collaborative tool. The deletion nom stated, "While a userpage notice may be useful, it's not necessary to have a category identifying who the user prefers to have sex with (if any), or what gender a person prefers to identify with. . . ."(Jc37) This completely mises the importance of the category. Anyone "who would use this category self-identifies with a culture and declares a desire to find and be found by other members of the culture for collaboration."(Blue Rasberry) Yes, we are all Wikipedians, but we have all these cat's and userboxes to personalize that experience. Deleting this one diminishes that. Dlohcierekim 02:06, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn, keep the category This is a useful category per DGG and Nowyouseeme. VegaDark asked "how on earth does the ability to search for users who are attracted to a particular sex benefit the encyclopedia?" The category is not to announce an arbitrary action like attraction to a particular sex but to express a social affinity with a group which shares a cultural identity. The assertion is that the demographic who would use this category self-identifies with a culture and declares a desire to find and be found by other members of the culture for collaboration. This is analogous with other cultural categories like region, profession, or philosophy. There is an precedent of a long-standing community with a gay cultural identity. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    We're all Wikipedians here. - jc37 01:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not understand what you mean by that. I think that you would not support the redirection of all categories in Category:Wikipedians into that one category because that would not be useful at all. Are you asserting that there is something fundamentally different about a gay cultural identity as opposed to any of the other cultural identities demarcated for collaboration with people who make themselves available as self-identified representatives of a given culture? If so, what is the difference? Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean what I said: We're all Wikipedians here. When you interact with me, it doesn't matter what race I may be, what ethnicity I may be, what gender I may be, what faith I may choose to believe, or what sexuality. None of that matters. And Wikipedia is not a social site. We allow social niceties to a point because it can help promote positive, collegiate collaboration. Which is why people are allowed to self-identify by declarations on their user pages. But use of categories is for direct collaboration, it is not for self-identification. Another way to put it: Wikipedian categories are for how you or I intend to help, not for how you or I may describe ourselves. - jc37 23:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Category:Female Wikipedians (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The community decision to prohibit user categorisation by gender was made by user:jc37 on 20 June 2007 and implemented by user:After Midnight the following day.[4] The categories deleted were:

Roughly four months ago (2012-04-21), user:Ramesh Ramaiah created Category:User female, and until yesterday it had 566 members, and most of them are due to template inclusions. e.g. [5]

Yesterday user:VegaDark deleted Category:User female citing the 2007 decision. I had a chat with VegaDark (User talk:VegaDark#Category:user female), who thinks DRV is needed. I dont disagree.

What has changed since 2007? Two things.

Firstly, I think the community now has a greater appreciation now that there is a real issue with the lack of women here. The WMF has put reducing "the gendergap" as one of its goals. Change involves going the extra mile. We should be employing every tool we can in order to ensure that new self-identified women are welcomed and supported. That is why there was a meta:WikiWomenCamp just for women in Argentina earlier this year (another one is planned for India, next year iirc?), Wikimedia is supporting Ada Initiative, Wikimedia had a wm2012:WikiWomen's Luncheon, WP:Teahouse was created and appears to be successful[6], there are academic studies targeting women (e.g. [7]), and lots of blogging[8]. Women self-identify their gender in lots of ways on their user pages, and a category is a simple way of allowing all those self-identified women to be easily found in one way. There are a multitude of different userboxes for gender, making special:whatlinkshere not very useful. User categories are unobtrusive parts of a user page, for people who dont want to use userboxen at all. Also, user categories are much more user-friendly as opposed to special:whatlinkshere.

Secondly, technology has improved. We now have two WP:category intersection tools, which means that while navigating a category full of women isnt a good use of time, it is now simple to find users who are Category:Female Wikipedians and Category:Wikipedians in Australia(i.e.[9]), or Category:Female Wikipedians and Category:Wikipedians interested in medicine, or Category:Female Wikipedians and Category:Wikipedians by degree(i.e. [10]). And one of the category intersection tools allows many of these categories to be combined together. E.g. if an Australia female uni student is look for someone to adopt them, this is female Australians with a degree (currently: User:Ninevah & User:Kla22374).

It is also now possible to monitor changes to any page in a category, including by RSS.[11] This can be used to monitor all self-declared women's user- or user-talk pages for vandalism, flare-ups, achievements, etc. e.g. Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Wikipedians_in_Australia

Finally, to pre-empt the inevitable concerns about gender and sexuality being "too messy" to categorise, please consider that

Category talk:LGBT_Wikipedians). It is ridiculous that the current state of play is that LGBT are allowed a category, but women are not. They are both minorities on Wikipedia, and should be afford similar treatment. John Vandenberg (chat) 03:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

One more note; a fairly comprehensive list of Wikipedias with this category can be found listed in the interwikis of fr:Catégorie:Utilisateur_femme John Vandenberg (chat) 03:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: - The only category up for review in this deletion review is the deletion of Category:Female Wikipedians. User:After Midnight deleted Category:Female Wikipedians on 21 June 2007 based on the 15 June 2007 "Categories for discussion/Category:Wikipedians by gender."[12] The only discussion being reviewed at this DRV is Categories for discussion/Category:Wikipedians by gender. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 09:58, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse my own deletion - Procedurally, this was sound. There was an old discussion over the category which resulted in delete. When I discovered a new iteration (inappropriately named, I might add - "User-x" is reserved for babel categories, not categories like this) I checked the old discussion to make sure the reasons for deletion still applied. They did. The discussion had a good showing of participants and was unanimous. The deletion made sense, all of the previous reasons still applied, and the category had been re-created out of process. G4 has no time limit, although obviously consensus can change. The way to go about seeing if consensus has changed, however, is to bring up a discussion here, not re-create the category out of process. That being said, I happy about discussing the merits of bringing back the category here. I would argue that this category is not the type of category we want or need on Wikipedia, even considering "what has changed" as mentioned above. User categories are intended to foster collaboration. There is no collaborative reason to group all females together. Also, if we add that, then we are going to of course have to have a Male Wikipedians category. Half the world's population would fit in one category, the other half of the population would fit in the other. This, IMO, falls under the
    all-inclusive section describing inappropriate types of user categories. The original reasons were sound, still apply, and the category should remain deleted. Users can use a userbox with the 'what links here" function to find females if they really wish to. If people don't want to use userboxes, that's their own problem. I agree reducing the gender gap is important but compromising the integrity of the user category system is not the way to go about doing so, IMO. Additionally, I'll also add that the LGBT category needs to be deleted per previous consensus deleting it and endorsing it at DRV. It's only managed to stay around because of the headache deleting it would cause, although procedurally sound and IMO beneficial for the encyclopedia to do so. VegaDark (talk) 05:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    No, VegaDark, I'm afraid the established custom and practice is that G4 expires by effluxion of time. DRV has never decided what the actual timescale is. But you won't be allowed to enforce a 2007 decision over good faith objections, because that would constitute one admin overruling the established principle that consensus can change. A fresh CfD will be necessary.—S Marshall T/C 08:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Only part of that is true. Admin's are to continue to enforce G4, until they shouldn't : )
    While consensus can change, a "good faithed objection" isn't a change to consensus.
    As both JV and VD noted on VD's talk (and you even somewhat note above), a DRV (and/or CFD) is needed to indicate a change in consensus. - jc37 12:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    DRV has consistently refused to enforce the outcomes of five-year-old discussions, Jc37. I'm quite sure that it won't enforce this one. A CfD is necessary to show that consensus has changed, but any good faith user has standing to make that CfD happen.—S Marshall T/C 12:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    While it may be what you meant, that's not quite what you said above : )
    Anyway, from your follow up clarification, I don't think that you and I disagree on the process of
    WP:CCC. Thanks for the clarification. - jc37 12:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Well, I think it's exactly what I said, but I'm sorry if I accidentally confused you.—S Marshall T/C 13:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn: I read VegaDark's argument above and don't see a single reason for deleting the categories other than process wonkery. Of course gender identification, especially for women, has the chance to promote collaboration and the opportunity to connect people with similar interests. I'm afraid the argument about "all inclusive" is not persuasive, since we know that women editors make up less than 10% of all Wikipedia editors. As for the LGBT category, I think it's obvious that this category provides many of the same benefits: it allows people in a minority (of editors) group to identify and contact each other, to work together, to support each other, and to strengthen the community. The argument for deleting these categories boils down to deletion for its own sake, something hopefully others can see past. Nathan T 11:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    "deletion for its own sake"? No. it's an issue of overcategorisation, for one thing. This can lead (has led) to splitting all Wikipedian categories by gender. - jc37 12:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - As the original closer, looking over the past CfDs (and in this case UCfDs), I think that JV's points above indeed fall under the "new situation"/"new information", which is typically required for a Relist at XfD. I could support this premise as long as this is limited to only the specific category Category:Female Wikipedians (and Category:LGBT Wikipedians), and does not lead to splitting anything else by gender/sexuality. So we shouldn't see things like: Category:Female Wikipedians interested in X, etc. - jc37 12:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    In regards to "all-inclusive". Normally, I would agree, except in this case, I can weakly agree that this could fall under Wikipedia:Systemic bias. - jc37 13:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. It's been five years and a credible argument has been made that circumstances have changed. Eluchil404 (talk) 12:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn or relist Echoing my comment above: I see no issue with self-identification categories on Wikipedia. Encouraging users to express themselves freely without recourse should lead to a more collegial editing environment. And if ever a user's membership in this category were to cause concern concern, the scrutiny should then be applied at those making the judgement rather than those choosing to self-identify.ThemFromSpace 15:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn. To the extent editors want to describe themselves here in various ways, knowing this aids collaboration. A special argument was given that this particular category especially aids integration, and I think it's valid. I have consistently argued against social features on Wikipedia that detract from its mission as an encyclopedia, but the limited degree of interpersonal knowledge provided by categories that many people here and elsewhere consider critically important for self-definition can be helpful, if only to their feeling of belonging here. Preventing them for those who want to use them is in my opinion an undue intrusion into self-expression. (Male WPedians would be a good category too. It does not exhaust the universe of WPedians here as it would for mainspace bios, because not all male WPedians would choose to join it. Quite a number prefer to be nonspecific or totally anonymous, and many who do specify it somewhere, deliberately do not list themselves in any personal characteristic categories at all (like myself). DGG ( talk ) 17:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. "Hey women, please come edit the Wikipedia, because whereas before you could self-identify as a female, now you can do it with a category!" Really? This is what's going to fix the gender gap? A category? Pull the other one. As I state above in the gay wikipedians DRV, wikipedian categories are not well used for collaboration (collaboration for years being the main argument for keeping wikipedian categories around). And as I see in this DRV, even that pretense has been dropped in favor of nothing more than self-identification. Not needed for editing the encyclopedia. --Kbdank71 20:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The argument is that self identification helps collaboration, for those who choose to use it. All that could be said in opposition is that you don't think it would work for you. I don't want it for myself either, but that's no reason not to allow it for those whom think it would help them DGG ( talk ) 20:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    As I've said time and time again, how does one go about collaborating with members of a category? Picking one at random, leaving a message on their talk page, and waiting for them to respond? How long until you move to the next person if you don't get a response, or a "not interested" response? I'll wager you'll waste a lot of time trying to get someone to collaborate with you using this method. No, I don't think it works for anyone. People keep saying it does, with nothing to back them up. But let's assume for a minute that category-based collaboration works great. Collaboration on what, exactly? When you self identify as "female", it gives me zero guidance as to what you want to collaborate on. Can I bother you on Feminism? Reproductive rights? High-heeled shoes? Female CEOs? Or do you draw the line at, literally, Female? I've asked these questions before, and nobody has ever given me an answer that would make me change my mind on wikipedian categories. --Kbdank71 18:41, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    If that's the case, where do we draw the line? As soon as we allow gender categories and sexual preference categories, the line becomes very blurry about what should be allowed vs. not allowed. How about age? Those categories have long been settled as non-collaborative as well. The best rule of thumb is ask two questions - "Would there ever be an encyclopedic purpose for specifically seeking out users in such a category?" and "If yes, is there a better name the category could have that would better represent the category is for collaboration?" The answer to this first question, for me, is no, and even if there is some sort of collaboration that can occur (let's pretend for a second that all females would be presumed interested in collaborating on the Feminism article), then a better, more collaborative name for the category would be Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics relating to feminism, because there could both be males interested in collaborating on this topic, and because in reality not all females would be interested in collaborating on the feminism article. Why beat around the bush and hope for "indirect" collaboration when we have a perfectly good scheme of creating on-its-face collaborative categories? VegaDark (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    In the DRV opening statement I have included examples of Wiki events which are for women only. AdaCamps by
    Gen Y) John Vandenberg (chat) 02:33, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    And those are great events, but you haven't explained how they have anything to do with this category. Are you planning on spamming everyone in it to see if they want to attend? Can they at least opt-out of the messages? Because "self-identify" doesn't mean the same as "spam me about women's events". It means nothing more than "I'm female". It does nothing for collaboration, it does nothing for notification, it does nothing to help edit the encyclopedia. If you want social media, join facebook. --Kbdank71 18:41, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    How does Category:Female Wikipedians differ from Category:Christian Wikipedians? Their self-identification doesnt imply they want to be spammed. The point of self-identification categories is to inform others that this is a trait/skill/experience they have. They are making themselves available, even if they are not particularly interested in declaring it as one of their interests. e.g. a Category:Wikipedian lawyer may only declare an interest in history, because they use Wikipedia as a way to "get away from work", however they may still be very happy to answer the occasional question if it relates directly to them. Good use of self-identification categories depends on selecting contributors carefully, and accepting that they may not be interested. Heck, they may even be lying about their identity. But despite the warts of this system, it is useful if used well. John Vandenberg (chat) 01:56, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    How do they differ? They don't. Never said they do. Don't assume that just because Christian Wikipedians is a blue link and not up for discussion here that it means I'm for that while against Female Wikipedians. I'm against both. Their self-identification doesnt imply they want to be spammed. Then why did you bring up the women-only wiki-events twice? You still haven't explained what one has to do with the other. Do you actually have a reason for using the events as a reason not to keep the female wikipedians category deleted? If not, would you mind striking it from your opening statement? to inform others that this is a trait/skill/experience they have. Yes, this is my point, exactly, and it was determined that this is not a reason to have user categories. They are making themselves available Again, as I replied to DGG above, how exactly? Can I ask you a question on bra-sizes because you self-identified as a female? Do I pick a name at random from the category to ask a question about women's volleyball? How long to move on to the next random name if I don't get a response (or an "I don't know"). Can I cut down on my research time by asking 100 (or 1000) females the same question at the same time? (and can tell the good folks at AN/I that you said this was ok when I get questioned why I'm bothering our female editors?). Using self-identification categories for collaboration or even questioning purposes is a terribly bad idea. This is why we have wikiprojects. A specific place to go to ask for help that is frequented by people who have knowledge about the subject and want to help. Using self-identification categories for self-identification purposes is also a bad idea. It amounts to nothing more than social media, and that is not what wikipedia is for. You can get the same self-identification by typing "I am a female" on your user page and clicking save. --Kbdank71 18:55, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I have explained how I use WP:Category intersection to narrow down the results so that I am contacting people who are highly likely to appreciate the 'spam'. The events a) show the commitment of Wikimedia organisations and the Wikimedia community to the objective of understanding and reducing the gender gap, and b) the need for Wikimedia organisations and Wikipedians to support our self-disclosed female Wikipedians. If I misuse user-identification categories, I expect to be lambasted at ANI too. I have explained how these user-identification categories can be used for good and the importance of these good uses, and I am hoping that the community agrees that there are sufficient good uses to outweigh the misuses that are possible. If *you* misuse user-identification categories, that is your problem and you can expect to be taken to ANI. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:49, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    ... and "Not needed" is the same as "Verboten"?—S Marshall T/C 20:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Due to technical overhead for categories, among various other reasons, "not needed" indicates "shouldn't use". Using categories as "bottom of the page notices" has long been frowned upon, especially when someone can add the information to the page without using a category. This is true of all pages, not just userpages. - jc37 20:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm intrigued! What's the technical overhead, exactly, and could you please enumerate the various other reasons?—S Marshall T/C 21:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that "not needed" doesn't indicate "shouldn't use", for userspace categories. We apply it to mainspace because a categorisation can be read by our readers as an authoritive unquestionable fact, and it sits there without explicit reference. When "not needed" for mainspace, but still useful, we use hidden or talk page categories. There is also then need for categories to be someone useful for navigation, despite the limit clunky capabilities, and so there is a restriction against overcategorisation. These limitations do not so readily apply to userspace, to self-categorisation by users. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:39, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Whatever answer which will avoid yet another round of argumentative questioning on your part. --Kbdank71 21:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    There's a helpful graphic at
    Paul Graham (computer programmer)#Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.—S Marshall T/C 21:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Overturn or Relist (no preference between these two outcomes). Five years, the community changes, and there have definitely been changes in the community's concern about the editor gender imabalance. There's enough reason, in my view, to at least reconsider the question. --j⚛e deckertalk 22:04, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per nom. Categories have utility here easily exceeding that of userboxes. Agree with Jc37 that this does not generalise to "Category:Female Wikipedians interested in X", for example. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not think anyone is now arguing for such intersections in user space. DGG ( talk ) 20:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - Identity is an extremely personal decision and all efforts should be made to accommodate personal preferences. --BXM 12:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Overturn, agree with BXM, directly above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 02:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - I feel this is just as important as other self-identification categories and women are a minority here, being able to find and collaborate with other women (who have their own set of tastes, interests and expertise) would help to foster a better environment that is more welcoming and friendlier to new potential (female) editors. Though no one should take this to mean that I endorse hair-splitting the categories as was mentioned above with an example like "Girls interested in Foo" I do endorse this particular category. Ncboy2010 (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Short of a category name being patently offensive and intended to disrupt, it should be allowed.   little green rosetta(talk)
    central scrutinizer          17:41, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn User:After Midnight's 21 June 2007 deletion of Category:Female Wikipedians.[13] - The outcome of Categories for discussion/Category:Wikipedians by gender only deleted Category:Wikipedians by gender. It did not create a guideline or policy to justify deleting Category:Female Wikipedians or any category other than Category:Wikipedians by gender. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 10:12, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree with this, the Wikipedians by gender nom clearly mentions "its three subcategories" in the nomination whether they were specifically spelled our or not. To me it's rather obvious all of those were subject to the discussion and not merely the parent category. VegaDark (talk) 00:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just like everything John Vandenberg mentioned in the above DRV nom? -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 06:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - per nom and Cirt. NYSMtalk page 10:50, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and allow relist. As others have said, it's been quite a while, there's clear evidence that it may be possible (though not certain0 that consensus has changed, and thus now it's time to reconsider whether or not, in the current social state of Wikipedia, such a category is appropriate. I happen to think it is, but such discussions could wait for an RfD. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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