Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Catopsbaatar/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:45, 30 June 2018 [1].
Catopsbaatar
This is the first article about a
Support Comments from Jim
Very comprehensive, just a few comments Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- The most completely preserved skeleton (specimen PM120/107) shown from above as preserved (left), with diagram showing individual bones—first "preserved" is redundant
- The external appearance of their heads may have been similar to that of rodents. —their… those or its… that
- which are thought to be the same geologic age. —no harm giving the age here too
- Djadochtatherium D. catopsaloides, with specimen ZPAL MgM – I/78—I'd prefer Djadochtatherium as D. catopsaloides,
- Kielan-Jaworowska also assigned a damaged skull missing lower jaws (ZPAL MgM – I/79, an adult), a skull with partial lower jaws (ZPAL MgM – I/80), and a molar with a fragment of jaw (ZPAL MgM – I/159 from the Barun Goyot Formation of Khulsan, the only specimen not from Hermiin Tsav) to the species—it's a long way from Kielan-Jaworowska to …species, perhaps rejig
- I tried with "Kielan-Jaworowska also assigned other specimens to the species;" which is followed by the list of specimens, still a long sentence, but at least "to the species" is moved back, and the meaning of the following is clear when the reader starts reading. FunkMonk (talk) 13:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ulaanbaatar—link
- Catopsbaatar's lower pair of incisors was very strong and compressed sideways. —I'm not sure what pair of incisors… compressed sideways means. The diagram shows them leaning in to each other, is that what it's saying?
- What is meant is that the entire pair (as a unit) was flattened, the source only says "The single pair of the lower incisors, characteristic of all Multituberculata, is very strong and compressed laterally in Catopsbaatar." I reworded to "Catopsbaatar had a very strong lower pair of incisors, which was compressed sideways", is it any clearer? Though the meaning is exactly the same, it may be easier to read this way... FunkMonk (talk) 13:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Mammal jaws have been found in the abdomen of a specimen of the small theropod Sinosauropteryx, belonging to Zhangheotherium, which had spurs, —I first read this as saying that Sinosauropteryx belonged to Zhangheotherium perhaps rejig to avoid ambiguity?
- Thanks for replies, all looks good, changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Image review
- Generally suggest scaling up images that include diagrams. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:35, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Comments Support by Jens Lallensack
Reviewing now, more to follow the next days.
- Thanks, I've answered a few things below, will fix stuff later. FunkMonk (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Late Campanian – substages are informal, and therefore are not capitalized per convention. It has to be "late Campanian".
- It had very robust incisors, and cheek teeth with multiple cusps (for which multituberculates are named). – Multiple cusps are a typical for most mammals, including humans. I think the point is that Multis had a lot of them, which were very characteristically arranged in rows.
- What distinguishes multituberculates from other mammals is mentioned under evolution, but the name itself only specially refers to the multiple cusps, not really to any other feature. Kielan-Jaworowska 2004 only says "Lat. multum—much, multus—numerous, tuberculum—tubercle, in reference to the multicusped molar teeth". FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Catopsbaatar is known from the Red Beds of Hermiin Tsav and the Barun Goyot Formation – correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hermiin Tsav just a locality within the Barun Goyot Formation?
- Hermiin Tsav is a locality, but the Red Beds of Hermiin Tsav is a formation, as far as I can see. See for example the table of formations on page two in this paper:[2] FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)]
- Ok I see, though it seems that only Jaworowska is treating the unit as a separate formation, with most dinosaur people only using the locality names, listing them under "Barun Goyot Formation".
- Hermiin Tsav is a locality, but the
- and the name refers to its similarity to the genus Catopsalis – that was already mentioned with very similar wording in the preceding paragraph.
- Is it possible to name some nodes in the cladogram?
- The original it is based on only lists characters for each node (page 232 here[3]), so I wonder if it would be original synthesis to add clade names, if that's what you're asking. FunkMonk (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- No problem I would say, the text unambiguously links the node numbers with names. According to p. 228, node 18 is Djadochtatheriidae, and node 9 is Djadochtatheria.
- The original it is based on only lists characters for each node (page 232 here[3]), so I wonder if it would be original synthesis to add clade names, if that's what you're asking. FunkMonk (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- I wonder if the cladogram from 1997 is a bit aged? That is already 21 years ago.
- I couldn't find any newer ones... Maybe Catopsbaatar is included in cladograms published in more recent descriptions of other genera, I'll have a look. FunkMonk (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Even the 2001 phylogeny paper only lists families in the cladogram, no genera, so can't really be used either. At a loss here. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you are right and it is even better to keep the original one here, until a revision dealing specifically with this group has been published.
- Even the 2001 phylogeny paper only lists families in the cladogram, no genera, so can't really be used either. At a loss here. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- I couldn't find any newer ones... Maybe Catopsbaatar is included in cladograms published in more recent descriptions of other genera, I'll have a look. FunkMonk (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- because the nuchal crest at the back of the head curved inwards at the middle – I'm not sure if all readers will understand, maybe add "creating an indention at the hind margin of the skull when viewed from above" or something.
- The zygomatic arches were strongly expanded to the sides, with the skull width (across the arches) about 85 percent of the skull length – confusing, because you previously indicated that the skull is wider than long due to the nuchal crest.
- The most complete, adult specimen has a skull that is longer than it is wide, are you referring to these measurements? "the skull of the juvenile holotype (ZPAL MgM−I/78) is about 53 mm (2.1 inches) long and 56 mm (2.2 inches) wide". The holotype is juvenile and incomplete, which probably explains the discrepancy, which isn't clearly stated in the source, but I think the reader would by then know that the adult, more complete specimen listed firts has the most representative measurement due to those factors (age, completeness). FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- djadochtatheriids had a premaxillary ridge on the boundary between the two. – maybe add that this is visible in ventral aspect, otherwise a bit hard to follow.
- With four sentences, the bits on the premaxilla seem a bit over-represented and overly detailed compared to other bones.
- The suture between its nasal and frontal – not immediately clear where the "its" is referring to, maybe just replace with "the".
- The infraorbital foramen (an opening at the lower front of the maxilla) was slit-like in some specimens and rounded in others, and varied in number from one to three – Not sure, but would "infraorbital foramen" need to be plural here?
- Since the sentence also says "lower front of the maxilla" in singular, it wouldn't make sense to have foramen as plural, but I might be inconsistent with plural and singular, but I think many journal descriptions are too. But I mainly refer to paired bones as singular here, I think. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, but you say that there can be one to three of these foramina per side? Can you really say "The foramen varied in number" instead of "The foramina varied in number"?
- Since the sentence also says "lower front of the maxilla" in singular, it wouldn't make sense to have foramen as plural, but I might be inconsistent with plural and singular, but I think many journal descriptions are too. But I mainly refer to paired bones as singular here, I think. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- dochtatherioids – is this a typo? Otherwise please link. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:04, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Apparently, the I1 (first incisor) is missing? Perhaps worth mentioning just to avoid confusion?
- Characteristic of multituberculates, Catopsbaatar had a very strong lower pair of incisors, which was compressed sideways. – But the source puts it slightly differently if I interpret correctly: The single pair of incisors was characteristic for the group, but their strongness and lateral compression are specific for the genus.
- All I see is this: "The single pair of the lower incisors, characteristic of all Multituberculata, is very strong and compressed laterally in Catopsbaatar." How I read it is that what follows "characteristic of all Multituberculata," is what's characteristic. But I could of course be wrong, so I made the order closer to the source. FunkMonk (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- and the front end of the ischium was a rugose suture – I think it has to be "rugose sutural surface".
- os calcaris bone – as os already means "bone", this reads somewhat repetitive.
- extratarsal – any change to explain, link, or replace this technical term?
- not ossified (consisting only of keratin) – this is misleading, as I don't think you can turn keratin into bone, and this is what this seems to imply. You can do that only with cartilage. Maybe simply write that it consists only of keratin, without mentioning ossification?
- The source says this: "The extant monotremes do not have the ossified cornu calcaris but retain the os calcaris and the hollow, keratinous cornu calcaris". Anyhow, I changed the text to: "The cornu calcaris of the platypus consists only of keratin, and is hollow". FunkMonk (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Rest looks very good and solid, happy to support once the above nitpicks have been addressed! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:14, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, should have addressed the rest above. FunkMonk (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the fixes, supporting now! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:37, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, should have addressed the rest above. FunkMonk (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Support Comments by Usernameunique
Lead
- "specific name" — anything that can be linked?
- "its similarity" — "its" technically refers to the specific name
- "Catopsbaatar, "visible hero"" — suggest "Catopsbaatar, [language] for "visible hero""
- "with a skull" — is the fact that the skeleton has a skull not implied?
- "Skeleton" could also imply a complete skeleton without a skull.
- "It was a member" — what’s the it?
- "those of rodents" — could be wrong, but should this not be "that of rodents"?
- "its relatives" — its seems to refer to the skull referenced in the last sentence
- "It had two" — the snout, or the genus?
- "mandible" — link to mandible?
- "warmblooded" — why the quotation marks?
- "would have been" — is this debated, or would "were" work?
- "Catopsbaatar is known from the Red Beds of Hermiin Tsav and the Barun Goyot Formation" — maybe belongs after the info about specimens; might be worth saying that these are in Mongolia, although it’s implied
Taxonomy
- "species;" — should be a colon
- "creating the" — suggest "and created"
- "its similarity" — "its" refers to the name
- "they may belong" — suggest "they may instead belong"
- "consists of a complete skull" — suggest "consists of the complete skull"
- "rather complete" — mostly complete?
- "Its pelvic ilia were stolen and destroyed" — any more details?
- [9][11][3] — same journal, so why do the first and third have linked titles, but the second a doi?
- Their articles were only published with dois after a certain date, but all their articles are freely available online. So in the case of the older articles, a direct link is included to the online version, but in the newer article, the doi serves as a link to the free article, and a separate link would therefore be redundant. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Evolution
- "their premolars" — what does "their" refer to?
- "from the Mesozoic Era (when the dinosaurs dominanted)" — suggest "from the Mesozoic Era, when the dinosaurs dominated". Also, typo (dominanted)
Skull
- "41-millimetre-long" — "44-mm-long" for consistency?
- "35-millimetre-long" — same
- "those of rodents" — "that of rodents"?
- "middle than those" — suggest "middle than were those"
- "was slit-like in some specimens and rounded in others, and varied in number from one to three. One of the most characteristic features of the face" — perhaps present tense is warranted here, since you’re talking about the specimens as they are today?
- "prominent than that" — suggest "prominent than was that"
- "similar to Kryptobaatar" — should probably be something like "similar to with Kryptobaatar" or "similar to Kryptobaatar's suture"
- "differed little" — you want an adverb, not an adjective (little)
Dentition
- "By comparison, the dental formula of humans is" — what’s the fifth number, given that Catopsbaatar only has four?
- I'm pretty sure this refers to the wisdom teeth, which vary in number in humans. FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- The thing that confused me was the "2-3", which per your explanation below (variation) now makes sense. If you can find an appropriate source, maybe it would be worth adding a parenthetical explanation, e.g., "(two incisors, one canine, two premolars and two or three molars)"
- I'm pretty sure this refers to the wisdom teeth, which vary in number in humans. FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- "its I3 incisor" — "its" refers to the I3 incisor (the I3 incisor's I3 incisor, technically). "Its alveolus (tooth socket) was formed" would fix this.
- "unlike Tombaatar" — should probably be "unlike Tombaatar"
- "( with their alveoli)" — extra space
- "in shape (unlike" — again, probably "in shape (unlike with"
- "smaller and lacking ridges" — suggest the Oxford comma, since you just used one
- "The lower p3 premolar" — "lower" is redundant given the above explanation re: capitalization
- "The m2 had a cusp formula of 2−3:2, with most specimens 2:2." — I don’t get this (but granted most of this section has been flying way over my head). The formula was X, but the formula for most examples was Y?
Postcranial skeleton
- "was stout in side view ... was relatively wide in side view" — maybe another place for present tense
- "and was about 40 mm" — you don’t need the "was"
- "the meaning of this discrepancy is unknown" — any theories?
- "deep excavation" — depression?
- "os calcaris" — anything that can be linked?
- "Unlike other Mesosoic mammals" — perhaps "Unlike with other Mesosoic mammals"
- "As the spur may have been moved from its original position" — suggest relating this to the specimen, e.g., "As PM120/107's spur may..."
- "like the platypus" & "Unlike the platypus" — suggest "(un)like with the platypus" or similar
Palaeobiology
- "basal(primitive)"?
- "might enable" — should probably be "might have enabled" for consistency of tense
- "Unlike other mammals, the pelvis of multituberculates" — should probably be "Unlike with other...", and should pelvis not be plural?
- "and the newborns" — perhaps "and that the newborns"
- "fossil mammals" — is "fossil" the correct term (both as opposed to the adjective fossilized, and as opposed to another word such as "extinct" or "ancient")?
Feeding and diet
- "feeding on plants and animals" — suggest "feeding on both plants and animals"
- "Unique among mammals" — should be "Uniquely"
- "molars began" — suggest "molars would begin"
- "Similar to rodents" — should be "As with rodents" or the like
Posture and locomotion
- "supported the latter" — suggest "supported the latter theory"
- "bottom (suggesting a sprawling stance)," — suggest "bottom suggesting a sprawling stance,"
- "running fast" — should be "running quickly"
- "In 2008, they suggested" — new paragraph, so you should be clear about who "they" is
- "had the ability to jump (were saltorial)" — convention in rest of article seems to be 'technical term (lay explanation)', so suggest "were saltorial (had the ability to jump)"
Palaeoecology
- "considered the result" — suggest "considered to be the result"
- Might be cool to include a photo of fossils from one of the other species found in the Red Beds of Hermiin Tsav, but your call
FunkMonk, this looks great. Comments, almost invariably minor, are above. —Usernameunique (talk) 12:42, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, starting to fix things now. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think I've addressed it all now. FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks FunkMonk. Added about five responses above; you’ll have my support after addressing the first one. —Usernameunique (talk) 16:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think I've addressed it all now. FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Sources review
The only issue I can find is with the authorship of Ref 21, where the joint authors appear to be Ryszard Gradzienski and Tomas Jerzykiewicz, not as stated. Otherwise, sources look to be in good order and of appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 18:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
- Closing note: This WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 14:45, 30 June 2018 (UTC)]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.