Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of logic/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:39, 16 March 2010 [1].

History of logic

History of logic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s):
talk) 13:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
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Closing note: This nomination is somewhat controversial because of the nominator's status. However, several reviewers have expressed serious concerns with the article per

FA criteria – citations, comprehensiveness, weighting, and clarity – and these concrerns are serious enough to justify archival irrespective of the nominator's status, especially given the nominator's admitted unfamiliarity with parts of the topic. Now that these issues have been identified, and with no active nominator or other editors who are familiar with the existing content and willing to take the lead on this nomination, there is little likelihood that the FA criteria will be met within the generally allowed timeframe. Karanacs (talk) 14:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

I am nominating this for featured article because

talk) 13:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]


Comments:

  • Well-written but very sparsely referenced (1c). In the first paragraph alone: "the ancient Egyptians empirically discovered some truths of geometry...", "the great achievement of the ancient Greeks was to replace empirical methods...", "the three basic principles of geometry are...", and "the idea of a deductive system was probably known in the Pythagorean school..." all need reliable sources and inline citations. The article is riddled with similar examples.
  • As noted on the talk page, the references need a bit of work. For example, why are most sources cited in short format but Logical Investigations is not? There a lots of typos and inconsistencies, as well.
  • I am not sure the pyramid image adds anything to a History of Logic article. Nor does the Allegory of the Cave.
  • The discussion of Plato seems out of place here. As you say, Plato had no formal logic and what you discuss here is really his metaphysics and epistemology. Do you need this section at all?
  • The Aristotle discussion lists his works but does not discuss his main principles. Those would have to include logical form, opposition and conversion, and a better explanation of the syllogism. Given Aristotle's seminal importance, I think some discussion of his metalogic (noncontradiction, excluded middle, etc.) would be good to have, as would at least a mention of his non-formal logic e.g. the theory of fallacies).

* The medieval logic section is very thin. Abelard deserves much more than a mention. Supposition theory merits more discussion, as do Ockham and Buridan -- What was the theory? What did they say? None of main themes of the period are explained at all (syncategoremata, sophisms, insolubilia). This part needs quite a bit of expansion.

  • You describe the periods of modern logic briefly in the numbered list, but then don't exactly follow that outline in what follows and fail to expand on many of the topic mentioned in the list. It is confusing to the reader, and highlights the places in which the discussion below it is incomplete. If you combined the list with the sections that follow and more fully discussed the things on which it now touches, it would be a big improvement.
  • You mention the mathematical school, but it would be good to say a more about what they did. Set theory, for example.
  • There is a big gap between the discussions of Frege and Goedel here. Where is Russell's Paradox? Principia Mathematica? In a "comprehensive" (1b) article on the topic, you have to at least describe them.

--Nasty Housecat (talk) 17:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Aristotle and Medieval sections are much improved. I struck out the stuff that seems to be addressed now. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Russell and Principia discussion also seems more complete. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 18:36, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional support on the basis of 1a. This is fine work: there is much to be impressed by in the parts I've read. I'll be interested to see how Housecat's issues are dealt with. (Disclosure: I copy-edited the top part of the article last week.) Tony (talk) 11:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC) PS A few things I've noticed on a fly-over just now:[reply]
    • "that correct thinking is following out the connection between forms"—I changed the awkward passive to active before this, but I'm still not quite clear on the meaning (the "is"). Do you mean "equated c t with the forging of connections between forms"?
    • "an analysis of simple categorical propositions, into simple terms, nouns and verbs, negation, and signs of quantity"—I have category problems with this list: are not simple terms nouns/verbs? Perhaps I'm being daft. Comma after "Posterior Analytics".
    • Following the shifts between past and present tenses with interest. At this stage, it looks to be well handled. I'm thinking about the combination of present, simple past, recent past, here (my italics): "... has had an enormous influence in Western thought.... These works are of outstanding importance in the history of logic. Aristotle is the first logician to attempt a systematic analysis of logical syntax, into noun or term, and verb. In the Categories, he attempts to classify all the possible things that a term can refer to. This idea underpins his philosophical work, the Metaphysics, which also had a profound influence on Western thought. Aristotle was the first formal logician (i.e. he gives the principles of reasoning using variables to show the underlying logical form of arguments)." Difficult to manage, I concede.
    • Caption: "Aristotle's logic was still influential in the Renaissance". Needs a period (see MoS ... it's a full sentence). Also, the elephant in the living room is that since the Renaissance, it has not been influential. I guess the reader has to piece this together. Tony (talk) 11:18, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tony, thanks. I changed some parts where clarification is needed. "correct thinking consists in following out ...". "simple terms, nouns and verbs" - remove 'nouns and verbs'. "Aristotle's logic was still influential in the Renaissance" - it was indeed - the invention of printing led to a huge spate of transcriptions from manuscript into print (the text from Brito on the right is an example of such a work - Johannes Rubeus Vercellensis and Albertinus Vercellensis, Venice c. 1499-1500]). The decline from the Renaissance onwards was slow, as the subsequent sections make clear (I hope). I will have a look at the tense problem shortly.
      • Re Housecat's comments: I have added more references (more to come), have expanded the section on medieval logic considerably, and on the lines s/he suggested. The only area I am not really competent to deal with is set theory. I have asked Charles Stewart and others to help.
        talk) 11:40, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
        ]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi - these are easily fixed, although it may take a week or so. Can I take it this is a conditional oppose (or conditional support?)
talk) 17:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
Certainly, if they get fixed, I'm more than happy to revisit the oppose, but the main problem is the lack of citations on things that are expressing opinions. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I have been working on the citations for the general statements. I wouldn't call them 'opinion'. For example, when it says that "the work of Muslim logicians was important in communicating the ideas of the ancient world to the medieval West." that is not an opinion. But it is important to have such statements in there, as it makes Wikipedia more than just a list of small facts (which it very often is). There should be no difficulty sourcing these, however. Take a look at what I have just done, and let me know of any more.
talk) 17:35, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
Still sections completely unsourced and still the issues mentioned above about punctuation and the el philos issue are present. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question/Temporary Oppose

  • Citation problems: what is the difference in the citations to Kneale (forex, 4, 6,8), and to Kneale and Kneale (3, 7, 10)? There is only one Kneale i found in the bibliography, but it refers to two people as authors, so I'm trying to figure out if this is the same book. If it is, what is the logic behind the different name? Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a separate vein, I do agree that the History of Logic is an important topic that deserves an FA quality article. I do have questions, though. Has this article been peer reviewed by the Philosophy project (it doesn't look like it) or an ACR from History (it also doesn't look like it)? The issues I have with the article (some of which have also been raised above) would have been addressed at these reviews. Just a point to make.
  • Below I've raised some of my issues with the article. (a) Clarity of Content. (b) Prose. Generally, the prose of this article is good, although surely there are more elegant ways of expression, such as the following:
    • that have come down to modern times .... have endured in (to?) the modern era....?
    • probable order of writing of Aristotle's logical works is: ... Although it is difficult to determine, Aristotle probably wrote the treatises that constitute the Organon in the following order: ...
    • things included in a library, such as that at York, would be in a collection...not simply there
    • (lead) Logic was revived in the mid-nineteenth century, at the beginning of a revolutionary period where the subject developed into a rigorous... when the subject...or when it acquired its rigorous... What made the mid-19th century period revolutionary? I don't see where we get to that.
    • Plato strongly suggests that correct thinking consists in following out the connection between forms. I don't even know what this means. Does it mean correct thinking? Or following out the connection between forms? Or something else????
    • premisses .... I'll need to have this defined using wiktionary. (Was I asleep in my philosophy classes, so I don't know this stuff?)
    • The third question involves the nature of definition. You lose me here. Plato was preoccupied with definition. Not the nature of it. Didn't definition provide the nature of something else (the thing/idea/whatever) being defined?
  • just some of my issues.... Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:11, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Point of order: FTOS has addressed the remaining issues here, so these particular concerns may have been resolved Classicalecon (talk).
        • Still OPPOSE I think overall, the article is still too confusing, and I'm questioning the content. I'd be happier if there had been a History ACR and/or a Philosophy Peer review for this. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Assuming the points of detail raised above can be met, this is unusually strong article by the general standards of philosophy articles on WP. Interested in the question of it being peer-reviewed by the Philosophy Project - is that still functioning in any active sense? (I am looking at pages needing attention and open tasks, scarcely edited any more, but I don't mean to raise that as a topic for discussion here.)KD Tries Again (talk) 05:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]
  • Question to which I want an honest answer; I'm asking here rather than privately both to avoid anyone else asking the same, and to get an "on record" answer. In the past I've caught Peter Damian slipping easter eggs into articles. Are there any joke links, deliberate misinformation, falsified references or other breaching experiments in this article? – 
    iridescent 13:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
    ]
I asked Damian, and he said definitely not. He said to speak to Kohs about 'Easter eggs'. Damian is very serious about the logic stuff.
talk) 14:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
There are statements above that User:KD Tries Again is a subject matter expert; it would be helpful to have his/her specific review of and comments on this issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Easter eggs? I may be missing some nuance here, but if this refers to the deliberate insertion of misleading information or vacuous citations, I certainly don't find any. I would be unhappy if there were, as I contributed a couple of sections myself. Not an issue, as far as I can see.KD Tries Again (talk) 02:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]


  • Weak oppose for now: The section on logic post-WWII is very thin and makes no mention of the interaction between logic and computer science (including AI research). There's little or no mention of developments in proof theory and type thory, including intuitionistic, linear and substructural logics. Classicalecon (talk) 15:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • See remarks above. It really needs the attention of an expert.
      talk) 15:47, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
      ]
  • Comment The "Periods of modern logic" section ends with "Period after World War II", but this division is sourced to a book written in 1961. A lot has happened since then! Imagine a "history of computers" article whose "modern computers" section started with Babbage's difference engine and ended with mainframes of the 1950's. I would think this section should say something about categorical logic, more about type theory than it currently says (e.g. it should mention Per Martin-Löf), and something to the effect that a lot of current activity has moved into the intersection of mathematical logic and theoretical computer science. If it helps, Jean-Yves Girard's paper on Ludics in 2000 divided 20th-century logic into an "time of delusions" (pre-Gödel), an "time of codings" (1930's-1960's), and an "time of categories" (1970-2000).([3] p. 4) But I don't know that I'd call this a mainstream source. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 10:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comment: This article concentrates so much on philosophical logic that maybe it should be retitled to "history of philosophical logic" so that people looking for mathematical logic won't be disappointed. Maybe I have an over-narrow point of view (I'm a math buff) but I get the impression that if you throw every work on logic ever written into a big pile, 1) most of the publications will be from the 20th century; and 2) most of the 20th-century publications will be on mathematical rather than philosophical logic. So for the (edit:) history of the general subject of "logic", the article is slanted much too much towards older works and towards philosophy. I don't think it's appropriate to weight every time period equally. It's again like the history of computers--of course the topic goes back to the ancient Greeks, but almost all the interesting stuff is relatively recent. G. T. Kneebone and A. P. Cavendish have an article (
    JSTOR 4106575) that discusses mathematical vs philosophical logic, if that's of any help. log66.127.52.47 (talk) 10:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment: I disagree with the preceding comment. This is not an article on the "general subject of 'logic'". Wikipedia has one of those (Logic - and it could use some work). The present article deals specifically with the history of the subject, and thus the slanting towards older works is entirely appropriate. It's as if one complained that History of France was too heavily weighted toward past events. One of the most important points to make about the history of logic is precisely that mathematical logic played a second fiddle to philosophical logic throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, but then became the cutting edge of the subject. I have no criticism of the recent additions on recent and contemporary mathematical logic, but I am concerned that the article should not become too weighted in that direction. I wonder if topics like the Curry-Howard correspondence or automated theory proving really need prominence in an article about the history of logic?KD Tries Again (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]
  • I added a clarification, I meant the history of the general subject of logic. I don't think the history of logic is like the history of France. It's more like the history of computers or maybe the history of physics. Ideally the history should explain how things got to the way they are in the present, which in these instances mean the main influences are relatively recent. It's true that the most recent stuff is quite technical and not so easy to understand, but we should deal with this as best we can. Re the computer stuff: I don't think it needs prominence but it should be mentioned. We ought to acknowledge that logic has now made inroads into applied mathematics just as number theory has. Both subjects were once thought "pure", but now quite a few logicians are working on program verification just as quite a few number theorists are working at codebreaking agencies. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 16:59, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The calculus ratiocinator is little more than a theoretical proposal about which very little is known (scholars can't even agree whether it was about logical reasoning or numerical calculations). Leibniz is mentioned already in the 14th-to-19th c. section, and I don't think much more can be said without going into tedious details. Classicalecon (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think I'm mostly objecting to the sentence at the beginning of the "modern logic" section saying nothing happened during that period. It contradicts the earlier section documenting plenty of stuff. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I have the imrpession that calculus ratiocinator is the same thing as "universal calculus" discussed at length in Lenzen 2004.[4] (cite is from algebraic logic). 66.127.52.47 (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that some tinkering is needed to improve the flow. Let me take a look at that. As for modern developments, I am all for including them, but as they relate to the history; just reluctant to see this article trying to summarize topics best dealt with in
Mathematical Logic.KD Tries Again (talk) 20:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply
]
OK. Maybe it is best to just delete that sentence about the 14th-19th centuries. It is cited to an almost half-century-old source and maybe doesn't reflect contemporary viewpoints. I'll see if I can add a paragraph about more recent stuff, though I can't promise to do a good job, since I'm a long way from being an expert. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) And yet more comment:

From the other side and (quite destructively, I must say) has even reverted some of the history of this FAC (referring to that as a "minor edit", if you please). Apparently nothing is more important to Fram than keeping a putatively banned user out, no matter how much that user is improving the project. I disagree with that principle, and have reverted Fram's changes to the FAC; I'm assuming s/he won't wheel war. I have not unblocked From the other side, because I'm awaiting and hoping for consensus to do so. Could somebody please take this to ANI? I have to go out. Bishonen | talk 14:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC).[reply
]

Noted. However, from what I can tell, you mean Fram deleted article content, not FAC content. I can find no edits to the FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I reverted the banned user latest series of edits (since rereverted, but not by Bishonen, or not by his known account at least), I left alone the vast number of edits by previous sock accounts of this user though because other users edited inbetween.
Fram (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
Off-topic discussion continued on
WP:WIAFA, not making decisions about banned users. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
Recommend withdrawal of nomination based on 1e, which is not only occurring on the fAC page but on the article as well. There are obviously issues relating to content, some of which have been noted above, and that may be considered major. Although the nominator has tried to deal with some, this is not possible. Perhaps the article could go back to WP Philosophy, and the project can deal with its issues (or lack of them) and can come back at a future time when these are resolved or clarified. I'd like to see this article get an official peer review, with notes, etc., and perhaps an ACR from the history project. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:49, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a (common) misunderstanding of
1e; please review it. Article improvements during FAC are specifically exempt from stability. The edit warring by an admin on the FAC should not be held against the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:54, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
Two admins, SandyGeorgia, not one...
Fram (talk) 22:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
I did review the criteria, and still think it should be withdrawn. There is clearly a war going on that will distract from the content of the article. There is no agreement on the content of the article, editors are adding things, others taking them out. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1e says: "it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process". I think the edit warring that we have here is a case that falls under the exception. Of the two possible explanations for this rule – making sure that the resulting featured article will be stable, or ensuring a smooth FAC process – the first seems to be the more important one and the one that is meant here.
  • Nevertheless under the special circumstances of this candidacy it might make sense to withdraw, look for someone to assume responsibility for the article's candidacy, and try again later. Or not. But these are special circumstances and should be handled as appropriate. Hans Adler 22:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree Hans. The process cannot go smoothly at this point, because there is no one to assume responsibility for the article. I was hoping to raise the point, so that it could be addressed. Whatever conflict is occurring between admins is between admins. I'm finding this whole controversy extremely distressing, and distracting from my attention to other articles. I opposed the article initially for what I think were valid reasons, which were not addressed, and I continue to oppose it now, but I'd simply like the article to be withdrawn until its issues are addressed and someone can shepherd it through the FA process. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Auntieruth. Edit wars aside, there are significant good faith disagreements about the completeness and due weight of certain sections (Plato and post-WWII for example), some of which I first raised, that are getting lost in this discussion. This will not be helped, of course, by the absence of an active nominator now. Good improvements have been made, but there is no consensus on the content among the expert reviewers here. I also agree with Auntieruth that these things would, and should, be worked out in peer review and/or ACR. It is an important article. We should get the content right. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 03:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The section Logic after WWII does not contain a single reference, thus this section is far from FA standards. Also, the references are inconsistently formatted. External links need an accessdate. (If these issues are treated, I'm happy to give a more meaningful review, but these are kind of first-level objections.) Jakob.scholbach (talk) 22:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note-there are some source citations embedded as HTML comments in that section, currently invisible in the displayed article. CBM inserted these for inclusion later, I guess after he's had a chance to check them more carefully. So this is being worked on. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Check the toolbox; there is a dead link. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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