Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ole Miss riot of 1962/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 10 January 2023 [1].

Ole Miss riot of 1962

Nominator(s): ~ HAL333 21:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've been working on this intermittently for a while, but after meeting Meredith in person, I got motivated and finished this in a whirlwind effort. Now largely forgotten, the riot was a key moment in the civil rights movement and saw President Kennedy unleash 30,000 troops to quell it — the most for a single disturbance in American history. ~ HAL333 21:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Avoid sandwiching text between images
  • Done.
  • Unfortunately this is still a problem in places - for example between Aftermath and Legacy (with the Legacy heading also being displaced). Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • Done. However, the stacked image template I added to fix the sandwiching uses px width parameters. Is that okay?
  • This is a known problem of that particular template. Is there an alternative option? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some images are missing alt text
  • Done.
  • File:Edwin_A._Walker.jpg: is a more specific source available?
  • Unfortunately not. Image replaced.
  • File:US_Marshals_at_Ole_Miss_October_1962_cph.3c35522.jpg: when and where was this first published?
  • The Library of Congress entry states that it was published in a 2013 LOC ebook. But I'm not sure if that was the first publication.
  • That wouldn't match up with the tag currently in use. Are any earlier publications known? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The LOC says that the image was taken by the UPI and can be found in the New York World-Telegram and the Sun Newspaper Photograph Collection, suggesting that they published it. I assume it was right after the riot, but I don't know. The LOC also states regarding copyright: "No known restrictions on publication. No copyright renewal found in U.S. Copyright Office, 2012." ~ HAL333 04:17, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it's a NYWT image you'd be able to use PD-NYWT&S, but given that the LOC page suggests it's actually a UPI work, that might not be possible. Do you know if UPI generally renewed copyrights? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:President_and_Attorney_General_confer,_03_October_1962.jpg: source link is dead
  • File:Lyceum_NPS_plaque.png needs a tag for the original work. Ditto File:Monument_to_James_Meredith_-_Who_Desegregated_Ole_Miss_-_University_of_Mississippi_-_Oxford_-_Mississippi_-_USA_-_03.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume this is for the artists, right? I couldn't find any kind of artist for the plaque (it is just plain text after all). However, the statue was sculpted by Rod Moorhead. I'm not sure how to add these to the images. Is there some kind of template? ~ HAL333 06:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria:, sorry for the ping, but what is the best way to add the original work tag for the statue photo? ~ HAL333 19:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can just add an additional tag and specify which tag applies to what aspect of the work. See for example this image. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the plaque, the text seems to be extensive enough to warrant copyright protection - it's not like it's just a name and date, there's actual description involved. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair point about the plaque. Since it was made by the federal government, is it automatically public domain? Also, I tried adding a derivative work template as per this image but it didn't work. I'm kind of over my head... ~ HAL333 04:17, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The template you're using exists on enwp but not Commons. Not sure if there is a Commons equivalent - you could look for one, or just use a non-template solution. Re the plaque, most likely, but you'd need to elaborate the sourcing in the image description and add an NPS tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've resolved the NPS plaque, and did my best with the statue. ~ HAL333 20:23, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plaque is now fine; statue remains problematic. What do you believe to be the copyright status of the statue itself? If it's not PD or free, a derivative work of it can't be under a free license. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Information on the statue's copyright is basically nonexistent, unfortunately, so I decided just to remove it entirely. ~ HAL333


Comments

  • "Meredith tried to integrate Ole Miss" - is there an appropriate wikilink for "integrate" in this context (here and in the body)? Younger readers and many outside the United States will be unfamiliar with this usage
  • Linked
  • "were dispatched to accompany Meredith during his registration to maintain civil order" - I think "were dispatched to accompany Meredith to maintain civil order during his registration" reads slightly better
  • I concur. I also removed the repetitive mention of his registration as it is present earlier in that same sentence.
  • "Reporters, US marshals, and the U.S. Deputy Attorney General" - US both with and without dots - is this correct?
  • No, and removed all instances of "US"
  • "The riot, and the federal crackdown, was" => "The riot and the federal crackdown were"
  • Fixed.
  • "and avoid federal troop deployment, as had happened" - which had happened? Troop deployment or the avoidance of troop deployment
  • Edited for clarity
  • "President Kennedy federalized the Mississippi National Guard" - I don't personally know what this means, is there a way to explain without adding too much verbiage?
  • Essentially, he converted state troops into federal/national troops. I thought about adding "(thus bringing it under federal control)" but that seemed a little bulky/redundant. I added a Wiktionary link to "federalize" instead. Does that work?
  • "were less likley to upset Mississippians" - likely is spelt incorrectly
    Fixed.
  • "They began assaulting reporters" => "The protesters began assaulting reporters" for total clarity
  • Done.
  • "By this point, they evacuated the wounded" - I would think this should be either "At this point, they evacuated the wounded" or "By this point, they had evacuated the wounded"
    Fixed.
  • "They were likely not killed by stray fire from the feds" - I am no expert but isn't "feds" a bit slangy? Like calling police "cops"?
  • Fair point.
@ChrisTheDude: All comments addressed. Thanks for the help. ~ HAL333 20:15, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG

Not my area of "expertise" but I'm trying to expand my horizons as a reviewer.

  • "Hoping to avoid violence and ensure Meredith's enrollment, President John F. Kennedy" - I don't think we necessarily need "President" here as we've already established that in the first paragraph.
  • I removed "John F." because it is repetitive but I kept "President" to differentiate him from RFK. Is that okay?
  • "27 marshals received gunshot wounds" - not a very good practice to start a sentence with a number.
  • "including a French journalist" - perhaps extend the link pipe to "a"? As it stands, it's a little too
    WP:EASTEREGG
    -y.
  • "20 months", "2,000 people" -
    WP:NBSP
    needed
  • Billinglea decided to divide the MP "Task Force Alpha" into two - if he indeed did do that, I would remove "decided to".
  • Kennedy underestimated the "extent to which segregation in the South was undergirded by violence." Full stop after the quotation mark, per
    MOS:LQ
    .

Good read. I expect to support once these minor concerns are addressed. FrB.TG (talk) 17:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@FrB.TG: All comments addressed. Nice catches. ~ HAL333 18:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose. FrB.TG (talk) 18:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC) If you have the time and interest, I would appreciate comments on my FAC but it's obviously not required in any way.[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "Throughout the night," I might say "During the night" and even tell the reader what night it was (dates)
  • "President Kennedy issued an Oval Office Address," I might say he "made" the address. Or even "addressed the nation from the Oval Office" with links as appropriate.
  • "maintain civil order" I'd strike "civil".
  • Did Brown apply to public colleges or was there some other decision that Meridith acted under?
  • That's a great question—that had never occurred to me... The sources are fustratingly opaque as to whether Brown only applied to primary and secondary public schools. Brown did overturn Berea College v. Kentucky, but that only applied to private universities. McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents is also relevant (On an aside, that case fascinates me because the Meredith-equivalent—McLaurin—disappeared. Some say he was killed and others think he went to more hospitable Mexico. I tend to believe the latter.) but none of the literary sources mention it in the context of Meredith's plight and it seems to apply moreso to grad school. Regardless, most of the texts seem to frame Meredith's application in Brown's aftermath and the tense atmosphere it created. If the RS do it, I think it's okay to use it to 'set the stage'. ~ HAL333 01:07, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Probably more famous is Sweatt v. Painter, but again, that was a law school. Wehwalt (talk) 13:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You might want to establish that RFK was JFK's brother before talking about "the Kennedy brothers"
  • "half time" Surely "halftime"?
  • "Barnett issued" better "Barnett made"
  • I might link rector to the appropriate article.
  • "to the campus; Barnett never did" suggest, "to the campus, which he never did" (to avoid the repetition of "Barnett")
  • "Lieutenant Governor Johnson Jr. " I don't think you add Jr. under these circumstances. Also I'd delete the Jr. later in the paragraph.
  • "persuaded a large group of state troopers against travelling to the campus and launching an armed attack on the marshals." perhaps "talked a large group of state troopers out of going to the campus and launching an armed attack on the marshals".
  • "town-center" I'd delete the hyphen.
  • "At this point, they evacuated the wounded" Who is "they"? Given what comes before, it might be assumed to be the rioters.
That's it. Very interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:24, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: I appreciate the comments. All addressed except for Brown. ~ HAL333 01:07, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Support Wehwalt (talk) 13:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SC

Kennedy dialogue and escalating tensions
  • "the Fifth Circuit found Barnett to be in contempt of court and threatened to imprison Barnett and fine him $10,000": "imprison him" would be better.
Refs
  • It looks like the page ranges are shown in the format 1—2, using an em dash. It should be 1–2, using an endash (per
    MOS:PAGERANGE
    ).

Aside from that, I made a couple of edits here, which should be in line with the MOS; if I've changed a spelling from US to BrEng, feel free to revert those. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize there were that many typos - good eye. All comments addressed. Thanks, ~ HAL333 17:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All good - Support. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Some of the details in the infobox/lead don't appear to be cited anywhere - eg the number of injuries
  • FN110: author name is backwards
  • FN106: is this an authorized republication?
  • Check alphabetization of Works cited
  • There are no citations to the first listed Eagles work. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • All addressed. Regarding the unsourced content in the IB, I removed the 300 injured mention and sourced "Meredith v. Fair". That's all I could find, unless I missed something. ~ HAL333 09:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, how is this one now? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from mujinga

Thanks for the article, just a few queries from me Mujinga (talk) 15:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "and hijacked vehicles" - more than the fire engine mentioned in the body?
  • There's also the bulldozer-I just clarified that it was stolen. Perusing the sources, I found that the rioters were driving around in at least one of the cars they later burned, but communicating that made the sentence a little ungainly. ~ HAL333 02:01, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "elected to send federal agents as they appeared more civilian and were less likely to upset Mississippians" - i think i see what you mean here, but can you make it more explicit, like they weren't wearing military uniforms or whatever
  • I reworded it slightly for clarity. They were effectively a paramilitary force—they wore steel combat helmets, some had bandoliers and military-style vests, and they carried grenade launchers and guns (as seen in the truck photo in the "Aftermath" section). ~ HAL333 03:01, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • A triumph of law and order, Meredith's admission "crushed forever" the segregationist tactic of massive resistance. - who said crushed forever?
  • It was Doyle, the author of the cited text (which I feel is implicit). The sentence seemed ungainly when I tried to insert atrribution, however, (somewhat regrettably) I can word it in plain english sans the quote if you want. ~ HAL333 02:20, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would rather you make it explicit and say something like "Historian William Doyle, author of An American Insurrection wrote that..." but it's not a massive point for me so I can wait to see what other people think. Mujinga (talk) 14:46, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • Some observers have gone so far as to call it the symbolic final battle of the Civil War, a final failed push to enact "state sovereignty" in opposition to federal power - who are some observers, who said "state sovereignty"
    • I attributed the first bit. The state sovereignty wasn't a quote—I removed the quotation marks as they're not really necessary. ~ HAL333 02:13, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • in legacy, could you perhaps add a sentence or two about how other universities later desegregated, for wider context?
    • Per The Race Beat (a Pulitzer winner and a great read): "most southern states had long before integrated their institutions of higher learning". For instance, the University of Arkansas (the same state where we had the Little Rock Nine) integrated way back in 1948. The only notable event post-Ole Miss I can think of is Alabama (which is currently mentioned). And rereading the sources, (besides speaking in broad strokes about the civil rights movement) the only event that the books discussed as being directly influenced by the Ole Miss riot is Alabama. Nevertheless, I expanded that legacy paragraph slightly. ~ HAL333 03:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, so I was betraying my ignorance here in asking about later desegregation - I think the sentence you added helps clarify matters. Following the above, I would ask then for another sentence saying that most southern universities had already desegregated. Mujinga (talk) 14:46, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a fair point and helps frame the riot in its historical context. I added a sentence to the background section, which seemed a more natural fit. ~ HAL333 16:29, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Mujinga: Thanks for the review. All comments (hopefully) addressed. ~ HAL333 03:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cheers for the answers, I have two followup queries on Doyle and legacy (both not really dealbreakers so I anticipate supporting after getting a response). Mujinga (talk) 14:46, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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