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Fanny Imlay

Fanny Imlay

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talk 08:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

From Ruhrfisch

Ruhrfisch comments - first off this is well written and well referenced, nicely illustrated, and I was generally able to follow it. I have some general comments first and then will go through with specfic comments by section.

General comments

  • I assume there is no known image of Fanny. Would it make sense to say that explicitly? If it is not Original research, is there an explanation why? (I imagine that portraits were relatively expensive, and as the adopted stepchild in a debt-ridden household, she was not a high priority for one anyway).
  • Added.
    talk 20:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I do like the poem as an image of her, but it is not mentioned/discussed in the article itself. Would it make sense to describe her legacy (such as it is)? When did Shelley write the poem? Was it published? Was that before or after his death (they seem to have avoided even talking of her after her suicide, so who published and when seems of interest). What about the sole biography of her? I imagine a Legacy section (paragraph) would be short, but it might help put her into context.
  • Added. (I didn't add the biography - that seemed a little tangential.)
    talk
  • I am fine without the Bio - just curious if there is only one why it was written, but agree it is off topic. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking of context, I think it would help to give a brief biographical sketch of her parents and explain a bit more why they were in France (he for profit and as a US rep, she on the rebound from Fuseli and to test her ideas from her Vindication books).
  • Done.
    talk 17:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Since the article is about Fanny, would it help to give her age at the time for certain keys events? So her mother's death in "Infancy" is when she was three (perhaps Fanny, [age three,] was unofficially adopted by her stepfather and given the name of Godwin. (this is in the lead, but bears repeating). Ditto for Godwin's marriage to Clairmont, and other milestone events (1807 move from Polygon, Shelley's 1812 invitation, etc.).

Lead

  • Only concern is the one sentence first paragraph - that seems to be a bugbear of some reviewers at FAC.
  • This "paragraph" describes her importance - establishes her notability, if you will - which is unfortunately only that she is the child of famous people. This sentence could be joined to the next paragraph, but I thought the separation made more sense. Let me know what you think.
    talk 02:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Infancy

  • This is where I would add a brief intro to her parents and why they were in France then. Now things just start
    in media res
    , which is a bit confusing - who are these people and why are they meeting in a toll booth?
  • I added a bit on Wollstonecraft and Imlay.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Speaking of toll booths, that seems very cramped - could it have been a toll house or customs house? The mental image of a tiny booth with a border guard and a couple conceiving a child all inside at the same time seems a bit odd. Also in this sentence
    Neuilly
    is dab - not sure which it is or I'd fix it myself. Finally, I would explain in the brief intro or here why exactly they could only meet here - presumably since he was a Yank and she was from perfidious Albion?
  • All the sources say toll booth. I'll have to go back and look for a description, but I remember being confused myself.
  • OK, toll booth it is - still sounds like something out of Benny Hill though (with Benny as the leering toll booth official). Could it be a poor translation of the French? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I looked at the article for
    toll booth itself is a redirect to toll road). I have also asked a French speaker about Neuilly. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I don't know which Neuilly it is, either. I was hoping someone else would. :)
  • I'll have to check on why they could only meet there - it wasn't for nationalistic reasons. Imlay registered Wollstonecraft as his wife at the American counselate to protect her from just those sorts of rules, even though they weren't married.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Aha - please see here In French the word for toll booth and toll house are the same. Also, Neuilly is the Neuilly-sur-Seine variety. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. Cut and pasted anyway. :)
    talk 20:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Wollstonecraft gave birth to Frances (Fanny) Imlay, her first daughter,... - when I first read this I was not sure if Fanny was her first child as well as first daughter. I knew a sister was on the way eventually, but was not sure if any brother(s) had preceded Fanny (again I am not well versed in Wollstonecraft's life).
  • Changed to "child". Good point.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I think it would be helpful to add the dates of the trip to Scandanavia (July to Septemebr 1795?) to or after In a last attempt to win him back, she embarked upon a hazardous trip to Scandinavia with only her young daughter and a maid in order to conduct some business for him. Also would some commas help here: In a last attempt to win him back, she embarked upon a hazardous trip to Scandinavia[,] with only her young daughter and a maid, in order to conduct some business for him.? Not sure the one in brackets is needed, like the other one I added.
  • Added dates and comma.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Gilbert Imlay disappears from the article and Fanny's life here: Neither Wollstonecraft nor her daughter ever saw Gilbert Imlay after 1796,[12] ... - are there any later letters from him to her or vice versa? Did he take any interest in her that we know of? Provide any fiscal support? Since he outlived her, is there any known reaction by him to her death (or was he even aware of it)? If there was no further contact (no letters etc.) and he never writes of her that we know of (which I presume is the case), is that worth a mention too?
  • See below.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Block quote (You know that as a female I am particularly attached to her ...) from "Letters Written in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark" is not clearly set off (because of image of book page to its left). Makes it difficult to recgnize as a quote at first. Ditto for the next block quote, beginning When you were hungry, you began to cry,....
  • Added
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • She began two books related to her care while Fanny was young... - since Mary Wollstonecraft died when Fanny was 3, is "while Fanny was young" necessary?
  • Removed - you're right.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
OK Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about adding "newborn" to Wollstonecraft died in September of the same year, due to complications from childbirth, but her [newborn] daughter, Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin, survived - makes it clearer which daughter is referred to on first read.
  • Excellent idea - added.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Glad to be of help, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aha, forgot this After Wollstonecraft's death, Godwin and Joseph Johnson, Wollstonecraft's publisher and close friend, contacted Fanny's father [Gilbert Imlay], but he was uninterested in raising his child.[22] perhaps add above mentioned info here (if he never wrote, etc.)(the cad).
  • Moved - I always had trouble placing that little tidbit.
    talk 03:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Agree it reads better here - the current tense seems to allow the possibility that she saw some time after this: (Neither Wollstonecraft nor her daughter had seen Gilbert Imlay after 1796.)[21] Perhaps (Neither Wollstonecraft nor her daughter ever saw Gilbert Imlay after 1796.)[21]?
  • Last sentence in this section During these early years of Fanny's life, Joseph Johnson served as an "unofficial trustee" for her.[26] Johnson is only mentioned once more by name - would it make sense to add here why he disappears eventually (convicted of sedition, then dies 1809)?
  • Ah - now I've got it. It was the will. Added.
    talk 21:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Childhood

  • Add ages of Clairmont children here (is Claire older or younger than Fanny?): On December 21, 1801, Godwin married Mary Jane Clairmont, a neighbor with two children of her own: Claire and Charles.
  • Added.
    talk 18:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • It may be useful to add more descriptive phrases in some cases to avoid confusion. I know Mary Wollstonecraft is dead, but this is a tad confusing (two (or three) Marys in close proximity): They were astonished that Godwin could replace Mary Wollstonecraft with her.[30] Mary and Fanny disliked her and complained that she preferred her own children to them.[31] Perhaps They were astonished that Godwin could replace Mary Wollstonecraft with her.[30] Fanny and her sister Mary disliked their stepmother and complained that she preferred her own children to them.[31] (since the sepmother is also a Mary - agh).
  • The caption The Polygon, where Fanny spent her childhood years - which building is it? There is a church on the right so I am guessing it is on the left?

Teenage years

  • Suggest tweaking the first sentence on Aaron Burr to ..the literary and political society that surrounded Godwin. For example, former vice-president Aaron Burr often spent time with the Godwins during his self-imposed exile from the United States after his acquittal on treason charges. (otherwise the initial "his self-imposed exile" has an unclear antecedent - "his" seems to refer initially to Godwin). Or maybe just ..the literary and political society that surrounded Godwin. For example, during Aaron Burr's self-imposed exile from the United States after his acquittal on treason charges, the former vice-president often spent time with the Godwins.
  • More places to add a relationship for clarity: Meanwhile, the Godwin household became even more uncomfortable as Godwin sank further into debt and as [Fanny's half-sister,] Mary Godwin[,] and her mother... And perhaps [Her stepmother] Mary Jane Godwin wrote that Fanny's "emotion was deep when she heard of the sad fate of the two girls; she cannot get over it".[54]
  • Can you add approximate dates when Shelley and the sisters ran off to Europe and when they returned to London?
  • Done.
    talk 18:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Two questions on this sentence: Her aunts were considering her for a teaching position at this time, but were reluctant because of Godwin's revealing Memoirs of the Author of A Vindication of the Rights of Woman (1798), the Godwins felt Shelley was a dangerous influence, and the Shelleys ridiculed her fears. First, could it be broken into two sentences (after (1798))? Second, "the Shelleys" implies marriage to me - if this had occurred I think it should be mentioned (know they eventually married, not sure when).
  • When Mary Godwin gave birth to a daughter in February 1815, she immediately sent for [her half-sister] Imlay, particularly as both she and the infant were ill. clarify relationship, maybe use Fanny here?
  • Clarified. We used Fanny when she was a child and Imlay when she was an adult - see extended discussion on talk page.
    talk 18:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Soon after, Clairmont became the lover of the Romantic poet Lord Byron, and Mary Godwin had a second child on January 24, 1816, whom she and Shelley named William after Godwin.[61] In February, Imlay went to visit the couple, who had settled in Bishopsgate.[62] Which couple did she visit - the Byrons or the Shelleys (assume the latter)?
  • Clarified - Shelleys.
    talk 18:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • At this time, Charles Clairmont (Mary Jane's son from a previous relationship),... I wonder if there is a way to make Mary Jane even clearer - Godwin's wife? Maybe identify Charles Clairmont as Fanny's adopted brother or adopted-step brother? agh.
  • I just read the whole naming discussion, and since this sentence is about Charles Clairmont and this article is about Fanny Imlay, I think we should focus on their relationship. So I prefer "adopted step brother" (which helps clarify which Mary is meant here too, I think). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed.
    talk 21:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Suggest However, Shelley refused, concerned that anyone learn about Clairmont's condition, least of all someone he believed might inform Godwin ([Shelley] was also being sued by his wife and was worried about his own reputation).[71] as "he" was possibly unclear here

Death

  • General comments - I would add her age here, also I think I would mention in the first sentence that she died from a laudanum overdose. When I first read this (The details surrounding her death and her motivations are disputed..) I kept thinking they weren't even sure how she died.
  • Can her date of death (October 9 in lead) be added? In early October 1816, Imlay left Godwin's house in London and committed suicide at an inn in Swansea. is vague
  • Imlay herself even makes the distinction in letters to her half-sister.[75] which distinction? circumstances of her birth?
  • I think the second part of this long sentence is a fragment (added a phrase to show what I think is meant): However, Richard Holmes, in his biography of Percy Shelley, argues that "her agonizing and loveless suspension between the Godwin and Shelley households was clearly the root circumstance" of her suicide[81] and Locke argues that [she killed herself] "most probably because she could absorb no more of the miseries of Skinner Street, her father's inability to pay his debts or write his books, her mother's unending irritability and spitefulness"—all of of which she blamed on herself.[82]
  • Another long sentence, where a phrase could be moved for clarity, I think: However, Seymour and others speculate that Shelley's only failure was to live up to his financial promises to Godwin and it was this that helped push Imlay over the edge; she was convinced, like her father, as Seymour writes "that the worthy have an absolute right to be supported by those who have the worth to give" [(according to Seymour)].[85]
  • Original research warning - has anyone else noted she used the same adjective to describe herself in her suicide note (unfortunate) as her mother did in the book dedicated to Fanny?
  • Yes - I used to have that in the caption under the book - do you think I should put it back into the article somewhere or the caption?
    talk 18:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Added bit about "unfortunate". For some reason, biographers only refer to the name being torn off.
    talk 21:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Perhaps add a word here: Neither Percy nor Mary Shelley mention Imlay's death in their [surviving] letters at [from] this time.
  • Final one: is the antecedent to "he" (and "his") clear here: Yet Locke writes that Shelley told Byron he felt "a far severer anguish" over Imlay's suicide than over his own wife's suicide just two months later.[99]?

These are pretty nitpicky - this is generally very good. Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is wonderful - thanks so much. It will probably take me a couple of days to address every point - I have some grading to do. :)
    talk 02:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Looks good, I think this is done. Please let me know when this is at FAC as I will gladly support it there. I can also archive this Peer Review if we are done (but will wait for your say so - not sure if you want to get another set of eyes on this). Take care, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks - it should be at FAC in a few weeks (I have to go through my checklist!). I'll let you know. I was hoping that
    talk 03:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • It depends on which person you are most interested in. St Clair focuses his book on Godwin, but it discusses the entire family, from Wollstonecraft to Mary Shelley. It is also the least speculative. Todd's Death and the Maidens is quite speculative and somewhat novelistic. That is also true of Seymour's Mary Shelley, but Seymour's is the most detailed biography of Mary Shelley.
    talk 18:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

From Roger Davies

Good stuff. I found the familial relationships difficult to keep in mind. Perhaps refer to Imlay throughout as her father; Godwin as her step-father; and Clairmont as her step-mother? By extension, use "half-sister" for MWS, and "step-sister" and "step-brother" for the others? (Yes, I know that half- and step- can be used interchangeably but I'm thinking of it purely as a convenient label for the readewr here.)

  • Do you mean use these labels each time I mention Gilbert Imlay, William Godwin, Mary Jane Clairmont, Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, etc.?
    talk 03:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Intro
  • What is FI's notability?
  • I'm afraid her only notability is that she was related to famous people, most "notably" she was the daughter of Mary Wollstonecraft. This is in the first sentence of the lead. Her other notable relationships - half-sister to
    talk 03:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • [Imlay] left Wollstonecraft > abandoned?
  • Godwin remarried in 1801 > "Four years later, Godwin remarried". Conveys fix FI's age.
  • Changed.
    talk 03:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • The teenage Mary and Claire escaped. Perhaps mention to form a ménage à trois with Shelley (if that's what they did)? Seems too juicy to omit from the lead.
  • committed suicide in 1816. Add aged 22?
  • Added.
    talk 03:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Birth
  • the French revolution > normally capitalized.
  • Both had moved to France during the French revolution, Wollstonecraft to try out the principles she had laid out in her seminal work A Vindication of the Rights of Woman (1792) and Imlay to engage in speculative business ventures. The two met and fell in love. I see you've added this recently but perhaps the extra detail inteferes with the flow. I'd cut this to: Both had moved to France during the French revolution, where they met and fell in love.
  • Changed.
    talk 06:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • named her after Fanny Blood, her closest friend. Was she called Fanny or Frances "Fanny" Blood?
  • once Britain and France went to war. Needs the year/month, I think.
  • Interestingly, this section is written with a Mary Wollstonecraft focus. "Wollstonecraft gave birth", "named her after Fanny Blood" etc as against "She was born" and "she was named".
  • assumed they were married; Fanny was thus also assumed to be a legitimate child and was registered as such in France. How about: assumed they were married – and thus, by extension, Fanny was legitimate – and she was registered....
Infancy and early childhood
  • needy expostulations" Needy is perjorative in British English.
  • but he saved her life. How? Leaves us wondering otherwise.
  • came to the full realization that her relationship with Imlay was over > "now fully realizing that her". Shorter.
  • a stranger saw her jump and rescued her. Cut the "saw her jump and"? Avoids the "jump" repetition.
  • Her maternal connection to her daughter prompted her to reflect > "Her newly acquired motherhood ... "?
  • Josiah Wedgewood > "Josiah Wedgwood". (Don't you just hate redirects?)
  • died due to complications from childbirth, but her newborn daughter, Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin, survived > "died from complications giving birth of Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin, who survived". (Slightly shorter.)
  • Did Fanny ever resent Mary for killing her mother?
  • Godwin that he was not her father > "not her natural father".
  • After Wollstonecraft's death Date?
  • Neither Wollstonecraft nor her daughter ever saw Gilbert Imlay after 1796 > "had seen GI since 1796"?
  • Wollstonecraft's two sisters, Eliza Bishop and Everina Wollstonecraft, Fanny's only two living blood relatives (a bit clunky) > "Wollstonecraft's sisters, Eliza and Everina, Fanny's only living blood relatives"? What about WM's father and her brother? Were they still alive?
  • I hadn't looked that up yet - my source must have been in error. Fixed. !!!!
  • Johnson served as an "unofficial trustee" for her. Do we really need the scare quotes? In what way was he a trustee? Keeping an eye or her? Or looking after financial matters?
  • They are not scare quotes - they are quotation marks. He looked after some financial matters for her, but it is all very murky. The only detail I have on that is the will.
    talk 03:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Added.
    talk 06:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Childhood
  • In many ways, Godwin was ill-equipped to care for children. How about "Although Godwin was fond of his children, he was, in many ways, ill-equipped ..."?
  • Caption: We don't need adopted stepfather.
  • You've changed the education section considerably. Much better.
  • Also, all of the children were taken to an Anglican church, despite Godwin's atheism. Invert and you can drop the "also". > "Despite Godwin's atheism, all the children were taken to an Anglican church" (or even "attended Anglican church services").
  • Added to caption.
    talk 04:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Locate Skinner Street. Near [[Clerkenwell], London. Trad. printing district, long associated with radicalism.
Teenage years
  • the literary and political society that surrounded Godwin > "literary and political circles in which Godwin moved"?
  • former vice-president Aaron Burr's self-imposed exile > "former American vice-president"? In a Brit context, it's not otherwise instantly clear enough.
Percy, Claire and Mary
  • Having never actually met Shelley and skeptical of his motivations (he had eloped with his current wife, Harriet), Godwin refused. This is rather tangled (just like Percy's love life). Who is he and his? And who eloped with whom?
  • Both changed - I would appreciate a BE pass. I tried to fix up the article today, but I doubt I caught everything.
    talk 06:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Both Shelley and Imlay were interested in the radical politics of the day and discussed these topics; for example > "Both Shelley and Imlay were interested in discussing radical politics; for example,".
  • and as Mary Godwin and her stepmother became increasingly hostile to each other > "and as relations between Mary Godwin and her stepmother became increasingly hostile"?
  • Mary Godwin had a second child on 24 January 1816, whom she and Shelley named William after Godwin. >"Mary Godwin and Shelley had a second child on 24 January 1816, who was named William after Godwin." Just establishing paternity in these sultry times :)
  • At this time, Charles Clairmont (Imlay's adopted half-brother) >(Imlay's step-brother).
  • At this time and At around this time in successive sentences.
  • That same summer, George Blood, the brother of Fanny Blood, the close friend for whom Mary Wollstonecraft had named her daughter, came to meet Imlay for the first time and told her stories of her mother. Very long. Is there a briefer way of reminding us? "That same summer, George Blood – the brother of Wollstonecraft's friend, Fanny, after whom Imlay was named – met Imlay for the first time and told her stories of her mother."
  • Many scholars have attributed > Many scholars attribute?
  • Changed.
    talk 04:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Theories
  • Imlay had just been told of her illegitimate birth > "had just learned"? (shorter)
  • Imlay was in love with Percy Shelley and forlorn that Mary > "distraught that Mary"?
  • Changed.
    talk
  • Should we mention that Swansea is in South Wales, and that Bath is more or less en route between South Wales and London?
  • Drawing on scraps of poetry > "relying on"? It creates this image of doodling, you see.
  • negatively impacted Godwin's business > "damaged Godwin's business"? Seems incongrously modern.
--ROGER DAVIES talk 08:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks so much!
    talk 04:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Let us not talk of
    talk 06:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
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