Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 213

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

If there are print versions of these sources, then as long as there's a sufficient reference to be able to locate that print source, it should be fine - the PDF availability or where its hosted is absolutely not required for print materials. If the material was only available online, that's a different matter, and attempts to be made to re-locate the material via archive.org, if possible. But those claiming that because the PDF archives of these are at this persons website make the article reliant on primary sourcing are incorrect: the sourcing is still judged by the original works that published them, not where an archived PDF can be found. There may be copyright issues with the local PDFs on that site, so one should be careful with those links. --MASEM (t) 23:31, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to link the references directly to the subject's personal website archive? Would that not amount to advertising? I'd leave off the link and let anyone interested just use google to find the reference. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:41, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Are there any good reasons to suspect the originals have been altered when placed in the subject's personal site? I think in the absence of evidence suggesting otherwise (for example, does the content appear particularly controversial or marginal or overly flattering), good faith should be assumed and that the sources within the archived content on the subject's personal site should be assumed to be genuine and to exactly reflect the now non-available online originals. However, if even just one source is revealed to have been altered, they all are suspect. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Involved users are entirely willing to look and remove any retyped sources as per [2] if they are identified, as I agree, it would be better to remove any retyped primary material. I cannot see any of the further reading links as retypes, they all look to be valid scanned original independant archived articles. I have asked Corbie to identify the retyped articles, and we can look at them more closely. I don't agree with her blanket deletions of everything, just for minor infractions that can be easily removed or adjusted to make the article more reliable. Mycelium101 (talk) 00:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I think it's advert-like, and most of these are not online anywhere but the subject's site. Also, Mycelium, can you stop with the revert-warring while this is still being discussed? You have once again added in multiple links to the subject's own website:[3]. This really seems excessively promotional. As this has to be so heavily reliant on his own website, I have to question the notability here, as well. -

☼

01:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC

I would also point out the odd,

☼

02:04, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Having multiple links to the subject's own website seems wrong to me too. But for the sources, as long as they are reliable, isn't all that is required is for their titles, authors, years of publication, etc., to be given. There is no need to have online links to them if they lead to the subject's own site. Also, an archived copy at web.archive.org is not technically "at Lockley's website" anymore. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:39, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I know it's off topic for here, but I have to say, based on the article content, this guy does not seem notable enough to have an article. I'm surprised it has not been nominated for deletion. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:55, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

From an international perspective, that might be the case, but from a South African perspective, I disagree. He is notable, is in the media quite extensively and the ability for a white person to be initiated into black traditions is a highly notable event from both a South African and

sangoma perspective, as it is quite rare given the history of SA and the context under which these initiations are performed. Mycelium101 (talk

) 03:05, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I get that, but it sounds like notability of a process, being the first of a particular race or nationality or sex to be a member of a particular group or profession or do a particular thing. I don't think that makes the individual necessarily notable enough for a dedicated article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:19, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I have to agree with you here. Additionally, even the sources that aren't on the subject's own site are not substantial sources by writers in the field. They are largely human interest blurbs on entertainment sites (see the video, for example) that rely wholly on the subject's self-reporting. I have yet to see substantial coverage that isn't either promotional or superficial. This is not coverage that is ever fact-checked and none of it is scholarly. Not every article on WP has to be scholarly, of course; we have plenty of articles on pop culture topics. But this is not a pop culture topic. The sort of sourcing we usually look for on Indigenous types of articles simply is not there. My impression is that the BLP subject sought some publicity in entertainment and specialized small presses or local papers a number of years ago, but that the interest waned before there was any substantial coverage.

Mycelium has already pushed to add Lockley to articles like

☼

20:12, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

A couple of things:

• My edits were done before I was aware of this conversation. It would have been helpful for you to notify involved editors of this discussion when you started it. Secondly, if you wish to quote me, the entire sentence is, "If you revert my reversion one more time, we will go back to the last stable version from 6 May and resolve linkrot issues as per
  WP:STATUSQUO
  suggests until consensus is established, the status quo article should remain. The last stable status quo article was May 6 and consensus has not been established, which is why I suggested it.
• The articles do not promote his workshops or business. They merely establish notability and background information, which is very relevant in a South African context. If there are any links/references that are overpromotional, then let's discuss them on the talk page. I am very willing to work with you to remove anything promotional or advertising. I just disagree with your assessments so far, so let's discuss it on talk.
• After a review of all links on the page for retyped versions, I can only find one that is a reference [african-shaman.com]. I have found a independant archived version at [5], so the retyped version can either be verified or relinked to pressreader if it is a stable source. So if that is your primary concern, then it is very easily rectified instead of all this blanket deleting
• South African media sites have a lot of problems with link rot and instability, which is probably why these articles have been archived on his site.Mycelium101 (talk) 02:51, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

If

I didn't say he was definitely not notable, I said I felt the current content doesn't show evidence of notability. Even if he is a notable figure or personality in certain places or amongst certain people, suitable sources must exist that reveal this notability before he becomes Wikipedia notable. An AfD might force the emergence of such sources if they exist. SO I'd go down the AfD route. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

As TTTTMF says, this conversation is now off-topic for reliable sources and the correct procedure should be followed, via AfD if there are no COI concerns, which I have raised elsewhere. Mycelium101 (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

A curious issue this, but I've encountered this guy adding a review to a film article, citing "eminent author and critic Shaiju Mathew" and his blog chaiwithshai.com. I very strongly suspect a COI between the contributing editor and the "eminent author and critic", beginning with the homophone between Shai and Shy, but I also note that many of this user's edits seem to revolve around Shaiju Mathew, like this edit (sorry, only Admins will be able to see it) where we learn that Arjun Mathew and Shaiju Mathew are the same person. (And that he couldn't make it in the world of song in part because of his "laid back attitude"...)

Anyhow, I'm digressing for entertainment purposes.

The question is this: Should we consider his blog a reliable source? Shaiju Mathew has an article, so he is presumably notable. The article claims Mathew is "a well known movie critic and writes extensively for various newspapers and magazines". As I poke through some articles found through the Indian news search, I don't quickly find anything that suggests he's a known critic. That doesn't mean he's not, only that I can't find anything. He might very well be a writer, he might very well be notable, but would we consider his blog a worthwhile source for film critiques? Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

The claim is unsourced, so why not tag it for sources. Opinion wording like " well known" and "writes extensively" cannot be justified if it is only him on his own website claiming it. Also, the Kay Kay Menon comment seems off topic - there is a 14 year age difference so there is no real correlation that can be made by saying they both went to the same school. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I see it's used in a number of articles.[9]. Besides any issues about using such a site as a source, this (Redacted) per

You are right: this is a dangerously bad source. It would usable only as a source for what denialists might think, and even then I would not use it, I would rely on independent third-party sources that describe its content. Guy (Help!) 10:21, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the website, but, based on the comments above, share the concerns that it should be used appropriately, if at all. Looking through the list, I see links to 11 mainspace articles - the remainder of the links are in Talk, Wikipedia & other spaces - so it seems like the editing process is working as intended. On first inspection, many of the article links appear to be to copyvio copies of books; these could be easily substituted out for Google books refs. I am happy to look through the use of these links in those articles over the next few days, and amend, adjust or remove as required. -

'c.s.n.s.'

11:58, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

And thanks again

User:Ryk72. Your offer is appreciated and accepted. I'll add that it is my opinion, and I think shared by others involved in copyvio issues such as User:Moonriddengirl, that sites that hold copyvio material should be avoided entirely. Doug Weller talk

14:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

@

'c.s.n.s.'

18:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

User:Ryk72 Interesting question. Not from this page, as it's being used as an example. But yes, I think from almost every other page where it is being used as a source. But I don't know what practice actually is on this. I don't do nearly as much copyright work now as I did before I stumbled into being an Arb. Doug Weller talk

18:43, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

John G. Schmitz (used as primary source for an obit of the article subject),
H. Keith Thompson (used as a primary source to show article subject is a writer for the Journal of Historical Review),
Geoff Muirden (used as a primary source to show article subject is a reviewer), and
Germar Rudolf (used as a primary source for article subject's experiments on "cell phones in airliners").

None of these appear to be links to copyvio. There are also 72 other links in Talk, User talk, Wikipedia namespaces. I'll raise the question about

Germar Rudolf, a disgustingly biased article that casts aside all notions of npov, but probably well protected against improvement. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

That said, I agree that all the url links to copyvio material should go, whenever and wherever they are found. But a rule that "sites that hold copyvio material should be avoided entirely" is unsustainable given that Google holds a rather large amount of it! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Removed all links to .pdf files; each one a copyvio. Will look at the .html next; removing where the linked page is a copyvio. Have also asked for an addition at

'c.s.n.s.'

14:39, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Fellow editors, Is Heatstreet (http://heatst.com) a reliable source for attributed opinion? The publisher as listed at the site is Dow Jones & Company, Inc. The content of the site appears to include opinion pieces from a range of persons. Specific context for the question is this piece, by games journalist Ian Miles Cheong. The question here relates strictly to reliability of the source; questions on the

Everything is reliable for its author's opinions. Those other questions are the salient ones. Rhoark (talk) 00:08, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

What Rhoark said. The only time you have to ask if a source is reliable for an author's opinion, is when there is doubt the authorship is authentic, as opposed to a hoax. That said, the real question is: Who is Iam Miles Cheong and why should anyone care what he thinks? But as you said, that's a matter for talk pages. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust anything published on Heatstreet. I'll admit, I thought the site was satire at first. With articles like SJW vs. SJW: SJW Mad That SJW New York Times Writer Praised SJW Who Wrote SJW Book, Endless Social Justice Commentary Killed ‘Ghostbusters’, Liberal Media Admits, and MUST SEE: Photos of Hillary Clinton Propped Up on Pillows, I hope you'll forgive me. But then I read a few articles, and, well, it's hyperbolical tabloid material, but they're serious. I'm unable to find any reliable sources quoting or reusing their content, which speaks to a lack of a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". They've even been called the "‘Gawker’ for the Right". As for Ian Miles Cheong, Heatstreet has published his other opinion pieces about Wil Wheaton and Manveer Heir, but they give no author bio with his qualifications. (I won't link the articles here because they would likely violate BLP.) A Google search also failed to reveal why his opinion is relevant. Woodroar (talk) 00:54, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Miles Cheong was a member of the group in question which the source reports on. His relevance to the topic at hand is quite obvious. LCrowter (talk) 08:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I'd also note that Gawker and its sister sites have previously been used as a source on the main

Gamergate controversy article, with which Crash Override Network is intrinsically related. If Heat Street are indeed a "Gawker for the Right" then that doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement of the validity of existing sources. LCrowter (talk

) 09:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

*ding* *ding* *ding* We have a winner. Q ^{T C} 16:04, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The salient rule is that opinions are almost always reliable sources for opinions cited and used as opinion. The only issue would be whether the person is notable in the field in which he is expressing opinions, and, at first glance, that appears to be the case. And opinions held by notable persons are not "fact checked" nor is "fact checking" a requirement for use of opinions. By the way, trying to find opinions which are absolutely neutral would rule out opinions on Wikipedia in the first place. Which might not be a bad idea, but is not what Wikipedia policy goes by. Collect (talk) 09:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

The claim that the results of the

One of the last "clean" versions of the article, and the last version dated June the 23rd..

When a ""non-binding" claim" source (conveniently dated June the 24th., AFTER the all-UK national provisional final results) started to get specifically reinstated, on the same date.

This question is in fact not first raised by me, but by Peter Lilley MP (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Conservative), who said (Hansard: House of Commons; 5 September 2016; Volume 614), by his speech in the debate (regarding the e-Petition Number 131215; relating to EU referendum rules ),

David Lammy MP (Tottenham) (Labour) had indeed, on the same debate, cited the Briefing Paper issued by the House of Commons Library. He, however, erred, in that he either omitted by oversight, or he conveniently, for his own purpose, deliberately ignored and omitted the disclaimer, at the end of the document, which clearly states, at the end (Page 33 of 33 pages according to the Printers), that,

Essentially, the cited Brief Paper cannot be used or otherwise cited as an acceptable or reliable legal advice. -- 87.102.116.36 (talk) 00:12, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I think you are confusing the general and specific meaning of "reliable source" here. The House of Commons Library's Briefing Papers are certainly worthy of citing as an RS on a relevant topic, even if other sources are in disagreement with them. Martinlc (talk) 09:53, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Martinic. Parliament is never bound to pass any legislation. The government can only act if it retains the confidence of parliament. A referendum itself does not change any laws or treaties. What Lilley means is that the "No" side acted as if they would vote according to the outcome of the referendum and would be dishonorable if they did not. That of course is his opinion, which may be right or wrong, but he is not saying that legally they must do that. In some U.S. states, referenda actually change the law and the courts will enforce changes, regardless of the legislature and executive. TFD (talk) 10:05, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The creator of this post appears to have breached

WP:FORUMSHOP since they started an identical discussion thread here. I have commented there as has another editor. This is Paul (talk

) 20:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to know if there have been any discussions about whether we can use Buzzfeed articles as sources. I notice that Buzzfeed is being used on various pages, but I'd like to know if there is any clear policy about it. Of course, by "Buzzfeed articles", I mean actual articles by real writers, i.e. legitimate content, and not clickbait pages. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 14:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Depends on the subject, the writer and the claim. I wouldn't blink an eye at seeing it used at

Strongjam (talk

) 14:38, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks,

Strongjam : that's precisely the point. If they have "a pretty good investigative journalist team", does that make them reliable for this subject ? I'd say the author of the article has done some actual journalist work on a somewhat obscure subject, which happens to be some kind of viral meme like "The Dress" but is also about a living person. You'll see the controversy here. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk

) 14:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I've reverted the re-addition of the material, under WP:BLPDELETE; pending formation of a consensus. -

'c.s.n.s.'

14:51, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

What I would like to know is whether or not the material is to be considered "poorly sourced", given the obscurity of the subject which is unlikely to be covered elsewhere : if Buzzfeed's team of investigative journalists is considered "pretty good" (per Strongjam) can the source be considered poor ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 14:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the article it's attributed so I don't think reliability is an issue here. It's more of a question for

Strongjam (talk

) 15:02, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

That's why I attributed the viewpoint. Another problem is that the association with "A. Wyatt Mann" is probably the main source of Bougas's relative notability (so I don't think

WP:UNDUE is an issue here). I even suspect it's the reason the page was created by Neptune's Trident

in the first place.

As I said, I'm not even sure the subject is notable enough without the mention of that association. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 15:05, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Bougas is absolutely noteworthy enough for an article, sans whatever speculations or histrionics are associated with what may be his earlier cartooning. He was a fairly well known counter-culture figure during the 80's and 90's, you can reference his IMDB page for examples. FactsAndHonesty (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

There are no "histrionics" here : if he was indeed notable, then the "speculations" about the connection are all the more interesting or, shall we say, intriguing. The main issue is the reliability of the info. I also think Grayfell's opinion here should be taken into account. Also, I find it a bit odd that a website considered a "reliable source" should not be used for a biography of a living person. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

A Pew Research poll found BuzzFeed came in last of all the listed sources in terms of how trusted it is by the public. [10] It was the only one distrusted across the whole political spectrum. That said, it's still "RS". I just wouldn't use it for BLP, medicine,

WP:REDFLAG, 2016 elections, etc. Rhoark (talk

) 19:12, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Kai Bird has an article. He's won a number of important awards and he sure looks solid. His published corpus is such that he certainly has standing such that "According to author Kai Bird, such-and-such occurred..." would be allowable. Whether we want to make the leap to directly stating "such-and-such occurred..." and sourcing it to Bird's book is the question.

I'm not sure why you think that

Qaddafi

being involved in his assassination is "very counter-intuitive". It's not like "Well, but those two would never hurt a fly or be involved in byzantine plots" comes to mind right off.

Here the New York Times calls the book "authoritative" (not that they actually checked his facts) and I'm not finding material right off where Bird is accused of playing loose with facts. All in all... I don't like to see books used a refs, and you're talking about Middle East politics and spycraft, which is probably a hall of mirrors... I think that using this book to ref a direct statement of fact (""such-and-such occurred...") would meet our usual standards... but in this case, for my part, "According to..." would be preferable. Herostratus (talk) 12:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Herostratus is correct.It's solid RS, but as always, though in this case it is not obligatory, you may flag your concern by using attribution, as H himself suggested.Nishidani (talk) 13:12, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

With Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, the definition of reliable sources has become a mess of confusion.

• Would a biography be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a autobiography be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a Convenience link(eg. youtube.com, archive.org, etc.) be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a video documentation be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a third-party (eg. Amazon) distributed book be reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a 'Leak' such as a document released by Wikileaks be considered reliable source for Wikipedia?
• Would a political magazine be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a Minister/Representative/Senator statement be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• Would a presidential statement be considered reliable source for Wikipedia ?
• What source & licence can be used for a political party's flag ?

I would like to know the answers to these, so I can add/remove respective content in Wikipedia articles, as per answers written here. More specifically,

Thank You --Ne0 (talk) 16:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

90% or more of this is already answered at

WP:IRS. EvergreenFir (talk)

16:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

“definition of reliable sources has become a mess of confusion”: to be more precise, the answers there are confusing at best, illegible at worst. And, I was personally directed here from those pages. --Ne0 (talk) 17:01, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

• WP:IAR
  states that we ignore rules when they prevent us from improving the enclyclopedia. For example, imagine a medical research team publishes the results of an experiment that show that eating eggs and hashbrowns every morning will make your IQ increase by an average of 20 points over the course of a decade, and over the next year or so several other papers publish the results of experiments which confirm it exactly; 20 IQ points over 10 years. In such an obvious case, it is extremely unlikely that someone would publish a review, as such a review would essentially be an extremely long winded version of "all the experiments that agree with each other agree with each other. I don't know what else to write here, la de da, please publish this, I need tenure!"

However,

WP:MEDRS

tells us to wait for a review of experiments on the effects of IQ in groups that eat eggs and hashbrowns for breakfast. WP:IAR is our way out of this conundrum: We don't have to leave out this important information simply because we can't check all the tick boxes at MEDRS.

WP:IAR is not a way to argue that any source of information that might be accurate can be used, however. There is quite a bit of accurate information that should be left out of WP, because it is not reliably sourced. The key here is that everything on WP should be both accurate and

verifiable. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it.

17:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

So, from what I understand, I can use

WP:MEDRS, and revive this article as common knowledge. Am I right ? --Ne0 (talk

) 01:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I think this relates to the talk page subpage up for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:New World Order (conspiracy theory)/13 Secret Families. Doug Weller talk 20:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I am tired of good faith constructive edits being trampled by rejection/deletion[11][12][13][14] due to some obscure excuse of reliability/sourcing/licencing. Maybe it is time I go deletionist on the unsourced, unreliably sourced, non-free contents. Well, the answers here would give me a reason to continue being constructive, or (or no answer) to become destructive. Also, I believe Wikipedia user-growth depends on DEFINED & DEFINITE Reliability/Sourcing/Licencing policies, as I suspect this frustration probably isn′t just me[15]: “Wiki-idiots are the editors who have been editing the website for years and have formed their own little bureaucracy that dictates what guidelines are enforced and which ones aren’t.” --Ne0 (talk) 22:26, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

OK, so you think Wikipedia is broken because we don't report, in the article on ISIS, that Donald Trump says that Obama was the founder of ISIS? You are

probably not competent to edit that article. Trump's delusions are significant in the article on Trump, and probably nowhere else. Guy (Help!

) 22:45, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Good job pushing your

POV ! Now, are you going to give some sources proving that NSA/CIA isn't involved in supplying weapons/vehicles/training to al-Qaeda in Libya/ISIS, or are you going to be a Wiki-idiot saying "It is my view" --Ne0 (talk

) 00:09, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I read the first diff. Three guesses as to its lead-off source, though you'll only need one. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:24, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:POINT. Doug Weller talk

09:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll plug my own essay,

WP:APPLYRS. Rhoark (talk

) 02:58, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• Peer-reviewed scholarly sources are the most reliable sources. News reports are reliable for news (i.e., current events). The rest are all opinions that must be attributed to the authors/sources, provided those sources are notable. (Notability is not the same as reliability.) Grey areas occur in some cases. If journalists/commentators/public figures write analytical works published as books or reports, and they are widely accepted by the relevant communities of reliable sources, then we treat those works themselves as reliable. This is "
  WP:RS in a nutshell." -- Kautilya3 (talk
  ) 10:45, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

@Ne0Freedom:So, from what I understand, I can use WP:IAR to bypass WP:MEDRS, and revive this article as common knowledge. Am I right ? No. Not even remotely. I gave an example where a broad spectrum of empirical data all points to a very specific claim being true. You can't go from that to "replace MEDRS sources with common knowledge to make a new article". There's a huge gap between empirical data and 'common knowledge'. The former is un-debatable, the latter is almost always just plain wrong.

Seriously, you should probably read

WP:POINT because you really seem like you're trying to complain about WPs policies more than you're trying to understand them. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it.

17:23, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

MjolnirPants I did cringe when I read "However, WP:MEDRS tells us to wait for a review of experiments on the effects of IQ in groups that eat eggs and hashbrowns for breakfast. WP:IAR is our way out of this conundrum: We don't have to leave out this important information simply because we can't check all the tick boxes at MEDRS.". mmmmm no. We do wait for a review, especially something like the example you give where confounders are so likely and something as fuzzy as IQ is the thing being measured. No conundrum there at all; primary sources in the biological literature are notoriously unreliable and we don't treat their conclusions of data as accepted by the field until a review tells us they have been. Our mission is to communicate accepted knowledge. Jytdog (talk) 03:35, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it wasn't the best example.... Maybe I should have said it had an effect on white blood cell count, or something more readily quantifiable. A well-formed experiment would control for confounders, a series of different well-formed, high exposure experiments with results published in high-impact journals would rule them out. I've read about this situation occurring before, mostly in grad-student reviews done decades after the initial experiments, who looked for earlier reviews and couldn't find any. (I don't think WP should wait 50 years to cover a fact that the scientific consensus gets behind, just because no-one ever did a review.) An experiment produces a surprising result, but the authors have a handy explanation. Subsequent experiments all produce nearly identical results, and no-one ever does a review, because there's no 'noise' to smooth over with a review. It takes decades for some post-doc working on something related for his dissertation to discover there are no reviews, and get his professor to co-write one with him.

Regardless of the strength of my example, no reasonable person can go from "there are situations where the rules can get in the way" to "fuck the rules" in a single leap. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:12, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

An AFP report with the incredibly optimistic headline "Facebook, Twitter join coalition to improve online news" lists several news organizations as users of a third-party fact-checking service:

• The New York Times
• Washington Post
• BuzzFeed News
• CNN
• ABC News of Australia
• ProPublica
• AFP
• The Telegraph
• France Info
• Breaking News
• Le Monde's Les Decodeurs
• International Business Times UK
• Eurovision News Exchange
• Al Jazeera Media Network

Be aware that reports from these organizations may no longer have sufficient internal fact-checking, and factual errors may propagate throughout the entire network. 50.196.177.155 (talk) 20:19, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

wow did you misread that press release. it doesn't make any statements about those organizations' internal fact-checking processes. The parties are going to 'share information on best practices for journalism in the online age" and "will develop training programs and 'a collaborative verification platform,' as well as a voluntary code of practice for online news.". again, just oy. I have changed the misleading header. Jytdog (talk) 00:38, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

We can disagree, but please do not change other users' comments. 50.196.177.155 (talk)

I didn't change your comment, I changed the header which was inaccurate. You changed it back. See

WP:TPG: " Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate". I won't edit war but my fixing the inaccurate header was 100% fine. Please fix it. Jytdog (talk

) 04:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Jytdog. This sounds like perfectly fine collaborative journalism plus a few more programs to improve fact-checking. A positive development, IMO. Neutrality^talk 02:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

In point of fact, the NYT has no actual "fact checkers" as employees, and few places have any "fact checkers" as employees. The reference given says

"Each partner is committed to sharing knowledge, developing policies and devising training in how journalists use the social web to find and report news""

Using the "social web" is the issue, and there is no doubt that there is no general fact-checking done on the "social web."Collect (talk) 13:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

1. Sources:

• Book 1: Managing Software Development with Trac and Subversion, 2007, David J Murphy, Packt Publishing, ISBN 1847191665
• Book 2: Trac with Subversion―Linux/Windows, 2008, Kyousuke Takayama, Shuwa System, ISBN 4798019615
• Book 3: Trac入門――ソフトウェア開発・プロジェクト管理活用ガイド, 2008, Gijutsu-Hyohron, ISBN 4774136158
• Diploma Thesis: Issue Tracking Systems, 2009, Jiří Janák
• Tracking community intelligence with Trac, 2011, Rob Baxter, Neil Chue Hong, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A
• Bug Tracking and Reliability Assessment System, 2011, V.B. Singh, Krishna Kumar Chaturvedi, International Journal of Software Engineering and Its Applications
• An Analysis of Requirements Evolution in Open Source Projects: Recommendations for Issue Trackers, 2013, Petra Heck, Andy Zaidman, Proceedings of the 2013 International Workshop on Principles of Software Evolution
• Crawling Bug Tracker for Semantic Bug Search, 2008, Ha Manh Tran, Georgi Chulkov, Jürgen Schönwälder, International Workshop on Distributed Systems: Operations and Management

2. Article: Trac

3. Statement that the source is supporting: Trac meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines.

These were rejected because "How to books are not independent of the subject", "is simply a doctoral thesis", "is a mention to explain why they used it, not to say it's the best", "they're not reliable sources". Wikipedia:Notability_(software) says "A computer program can usually be presumed to be notable if [...] It is the subject of multiple printed third-party manuals, instruction books [...]" and "It is reasonable to allow relatively informal sources for free and open-source software". Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#cite_ref-fourexamples_4-0 says "Microsoft Word satisfies this criterion because people who are wholly independent of Microsoft have written books about it." For the purpose of establishing notability of the Trac software, these all seem reliable to me as they are independent from the authors of the Trac software. Cgbuff (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

RSN is not the place to determine whether a subject is notable, as the reliability of the sources isn't really relevant (lots of subjects are name-dropped in reliable sources but we don't write Wikipedia articles on them). You want

WP:AFD. Hijiri 88 (聖やや

) 05:28, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

As the subject states, is it appropriate to dispute the credibility or reliability of a particular claim within an otherwise reliable source? I assume that it is, since this Noticeboard clearly states the following: Many sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y". This issue was raised during a discussion at the John A. McDougall talkpage, specifically regarding a source which is cited to support the claim that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet", among the other claims supported by the source. The claims are on the John A. McDougall article and the specific claims, from the lead, are as follows:

McDougall's diet—The McDougall Plan—has been categorized as a fad diet that carries some disadvantages, such as a boring food choice and the risk of feeling hungry.

The claims are again stated in John A. McDougall § McDougall Plan criticism as follows:

McDougall's namesake diet, The McDougall Plan, has been categorized as a fad diet with possible disadvantages including a boring food choice, flatulence, and the risk of feeling hungry.

The source in question is Essential Concepts for Healthy Living (6^th Edition) by Sandra Alters and Wendy Schiff; it was published by

Basically, these claims, particularly that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet", are supported by a tertiary source which is itself supported by a tertiary source that isn't supported by any secondary source or primary. This classification appears to be the unsubstantiated opinions of the authors based on a dubious reading of their own source (in which case

The "unsubstantiated opinion" of an expert is an expert opinion, whether it's cited or not. On WP, we don't engage in

synthesis of information. But an expert author absolutely can, and we can absolutely cite that author. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it.

21:36, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Given that it is an expert opinion, however, should the claim at least be qualified as such per

asserted appropriately. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs

) 21:48, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

No, I was playing fast and loose with the word "opinion" there. When an expert on health and nutrition writes a book (it looks like a textbook, which means this applies even moreso) on health and nutrition, and in that context gives their 'opinion' of whether a certain diet is a fad diet, that's not an opinion in the sense that RSOPINION is referencing. Re-read the section, notice how it focuses down on opinion pieces in news outlets and blogs? That's the kicker, right there. If the expert makes an 'end run' around editorial oversight, then we treat that as the opinion of an expert. If an expert pushes a claim straight through editorial oversight? That's a citable fact, as far as WP is concerned (unless we can show that there is a consensus in that field that this is not so. For example, we do not treat either Loop Quantum Gravity or String Theory as facts, because there is no consensus that they are facts. However, we can treat a claim about LQG published by Lee Smolin as a fact). MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:04, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Does it therefore not matter, at least with regard to editing on Wikipedia, whether the claims of the authors are substantiated by any explanation, supported by their own sources, or corroborated by other sources so long as the source technically qualifies as a reliable source? In this particular instance, none of those are the case, despite it otherwise being a reliable source. In other words, is a source a reliable source for a particular claim simply by virtue of it qualifying as a reliable source in general? If so, then what exactly does "Many sources are reliable for statement 'X' but unreliable for statement 'Y'" mean? I'd assume that would apply quite aptly in this case. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 22:48, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

No, not if they are experts in their field. At some point, you have to. I mean, you don't learn quantum mechanics, material physics, electromagnetism, electrical engineering, assembly code, high-level programming, systems administration, network administration, network architecture and design, Lua, Perl, PhP, HTML, CSS, Javascript (with JQuery!) and read every page in the WP help namespace and every page linked from WP:PG before you start editing Wikipedia, you just trust that the folks who built it and the infrastructure it uses and the folks who work on it know what they're doing. Even if you did do all of that, you've trusted a bunch of authors and teachers. Even if you are an immortal being who has existed since the dawn of time, you haven't had enough time to independently discover every fact of modern science and society and history on your own. If they're an expert, and they published through normal means, we take their word. If they're proved wrong, we simply change it then. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 00:22, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I forgot all the skills that go into the related infrastructure that makes your computer and WP possible. Power generation, construction, business, government, etc... The idea that we never trust an expert unless they prove themselves is a black hole of illogic.MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 00:25, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

I always avoid tertiary sources because they lack footnotes, may oversimplify issues, and it is difficult to resolve any claims that are questioned. Indeed there are errors in even the most reliable sources. I would prefer a source that was specifically about the McDougall diet, or at least devoted extensive discussion to it. In this case, the authors define fad diets then include the McDougall diet in a list. I find that more tangential to a source a fact is, the less reliable it is. Let's say you wanted to try the diet but first wanted to know if it was effective. Would you look for a study that discusses it or would you pick up a book on nutrition and see if it is listed as a fad diet? Also, fad diet is not a precise term and not every fad diet will contain the same elements, so it could be that the food choice is not boring or does not leave one hungry. TFD (talk) 15:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

The first source in question does not elaborate much in the diet as such, which is, sigh, vegan. Standard precautions apply. The article needs some rewrite, as it is mainly about the diet as such and less about McDougall's person and his positions. Stare and Whelan, the source used in the body of the text, ridicule McDougall's "eccentric positions" on nutrition and deem the diet precarious and too austere for anyone to follow. That said, I miss a broader perspective in the article, just copying the lede in a "criticism section" (which always should be avoided) is not very helpful. The sources as such both are reliable and worth while quoting. Polentarion Talk 02:15, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

In the article on Tony Gardiner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Gardiner), his Olympiad predecessor is given as Peter Shiu. While this information is correct, the Peter Shiu in question is Mathematician Peter Man-Kit Shiu (http://www.genealogy.ams.org/id.php?id=27070) as opposed to the Peter Shiu linked to who is the Vice Chairman of the Liberal Party in Hong Kong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Shiu). --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aap03102 (talk • contribs) 10:56, September 7, 2016 (UTC)

 Done --GRuban (talk) 13:20, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

This article^[1] published in The News International has no markings to indicate whether it is a news item or an opinion column. Can you take a look and give me your view? It has been used on the 2016 Uri attack page in this edit. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:28, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

When an article is marked as opinion, it is just forewarning that opinions exist in the article, which is a truism. The importance of that should not be overstated, since both facts and opinions exist in almost every source regardless of disclaimer. This one seems to consist of about 90% opinion. Rhoark (talk) 11:54, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that Rhoark. The distinction between "news" and "opinion columns" is a bit more significant in our context because we assume that the opinion columns don't go through editorial review in newspapers.

WP:NEWSORG asks us to treat the two kinds quite differently. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk

) 19:45, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not that simple. Sources can use facts in support of arguments, and the disclaimer that opinions exist does not necessarily mean that the portions that are fact were not checked. Liability for defamation is still in effect except for statements of pure opinion.[16] The reputation of the publisher and expertise of the author should be considered as well. That said, the specific source raised here does not look suitable for statements of fact. Rhoark (talk) 19:59, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

The issue with opinion pieces is that they are rarely subject to editorial review and fact checking. Generally, opinion writers have much more leeway in what they write than news writers, because the label of "opinion" allows the news outlet to publish works that would otherwise not pass the bar to be considered journalism. This makes claims of fact in opinion pieces much less reliable. They should always be used with caution, taking the author's credentials and reputation into account. Highly respected authors with a reputation for accuracy, acknowledged expertise in the subject being written about who frequently cite their own sources are as good as news articles. But most opinion pieces don't fit that mold. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:11, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Should http://blavatskyarchives.com/ be considered a reliable source? It is used in the article Charles Webster Leadbeater to support a variety of assertions. Dlabtot (talk) 07:53, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

It appears to be a specifically Theosophist site, and, as such, generally considered a primary source for anything not stated as being published otherwise. The sources which it cites are more likely to be usable as a rule, in any event. Collect (talk) 12:15, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Is this] which is named a diploma a reliable source for claims about Pleistocene lakes in South America? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 14:51, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

It's a PhD dissertation. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:07, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Diploma as such is generic term that can stand for various types of theses or degrees. If the publication indeed a PhD thesis, it probably be considered a reliable source as long as the content is not particularly controversial.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:09, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

That depends on the university granting the degree. Doug Weller talk 12:28, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Well assuming it is regular phd and not a diploma mill thing.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:03, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

This is from

Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle de Paris which is certainly a highly respected institute of higher education. EdChem (talk

) 14:12, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree. The committee is also made up by competent scientists, and its president is Henry de Lumley, a well-regarded senior scientist. Note also that the candidate has (co-)published several academic papers on the subject matter. This strengthens the case for reliability of the thesis, but also may provide alternative sources of unquestionable reliability. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

You haven't stated the material where the author's work is proposed to be used; it would be helpful to do so. Perhaps this article discussing the author's work is related to the OP's concerns. It's squarely in the mainstream of paleoclimate research as far as methodology (oxygen isotope ratios etc). Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:03, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

We got an enWP entry about the issue. Doctorate#France. The French WP has fr:Diplôme national de l'enseignement supérieur français. The lady in question, Florence Sylvestre became directrice de recherche à l’IRD and directrice adjointe du Centre Européen de Recherches et d’Enseignement en Géosciences de l’Environnement (CEREGE) in Aix-en-Provence. She is as well Chevalier de l’ordre national du mérite. Will say, a high level research scientist with various accolades and for sure worth a separate entry. That said, someone like her may still fall out of the grace of the likes of Stefan Rahmstorf - take the case of Jan Veizer, who gained a Leibniz prize for his lifelong and very mainstream paleoclimatic research, but Sylvestre's work is not to be dismissed easily. The statement paleo-climatic records from ice cores may be skewed by the local hydrological cycle, and should be interpreted with such an influence in mind sounds like the bone of contention. Polentarion Talk 01:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the input so far. For the record I was not asking about a specific claim, just whether that source in general could be used to build the article currently sandboxed at

Youre welcome. For the record, I was looking at the section since I would like o use a bachelor thesis - and I am more cautious now, due to the discussion here. But I am sure you may go ahead with your draft using Sylvestre's work. Polentarion Talk 18:26, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

• It may be worth looking over
  'c.s.n.s.'
  22:17, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm sure the The Daily Telegraph has been discussed before, but I don't know the consensus. I did come across a piece that I thought was pretty appalling. It's used to ref a fact over at Murder of Seth Rich.

It's not exactly a BLP since the person's dead, but the "for people who have recently died" clause applies since his family has made requests regarding publicity about the matter. So it's a sensitive issue, and its an extremely sensitive fact (it implies that the victim may have been a criminal and was assassinated by a hitman rather than killed in a random robbery). The passage, taken from this piece, involves the motive for the Murder of Seth Rich (he was pretty clearly murdered in a botched robbery but some people have trolled that he was assassinated) and says:

Police stated that he may have been killed in an attempted robbery but that his belongings were not taken

which we can deconstruct as

1. Police stated that he may have been killed in an attempted robbery
2. BUT his belongings were not taken
3. AND this casts doubt on the "attempted robbery" theory (as opposed to the "assassination" theory)

The third point is implied. Otherwise there's no need to mention the second point, and there's especially no need to use the word "but" to preface the second point. The use of "but" clearly presents the third point by clear inference.

This sure looks like editorializing on the part of The Daily Telegraph, since common sense tells us that if you're robbing someone, and it goes bad and you shoot the person (on the public street! gunshots are loud!) your number one thought would be to get the fuck away fast rather than pawing over his body. (I don't have a ref proving that, but the burden would be on an editor trying to prove the highly counter-intuitive proposition, I would think.)

(FWIW there's zero evidence of an assassination, and no disinterested reasonable person has suggested this; it's purely a "Vince Foster murder" type political ploy.)

The entire Telegraph piece looks pretty sensationalist to me, and while its presented as a straight news story their POV about the matter -- an extremely fringe POV -- is pretty much in evidence. So my question is, is the Telegraph any good generally for ref'ing sensitive contentious (kind of BLP-ish even) facts, and what about this one in particular? Herostratus (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Attempted robbery already signifies that the robbery wasn't completed (i.e., nothing was taken). So leaving aside the reliability question for the time being, the text at issue appears rather redundant in any case.

I do agree that, in any case, the use of the word "but" is improper. Neutrality^talk 15:04, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Agree with rewording to remove "but". What I am having problems with is the reasoning used at Talk:Murder of Seth Rich#Is the Telegraph piece acceptable as a BLP ref for contentious facts?, which was

"Since we know that the editorial says false things on purpose, and goes out of its way to imply other false things, should we really be using it? How is that a service to the reader?"[17]

I also have a problem with the removal of the citation (replacing it with [

ed ] ) using the same reasoning:[18]

I agree that what Wikipedia contains should be carefully worded to retain NPOV, but we should also follow the sources rather than replacing what the sources say with our own original research.

If we reject and remove sources because an editor believes they "say false things on purpose", we open the door to the same sort of source removal from creationists, holocaust deniers, and other individuals who are convinced that Wikipedia's sources are lying. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:46, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not asking for the source to removed on my say-so. I'm asking for people's opinion on the piece in particular and the Daily Telegraph in particular. This Equire piece where the piece's author, Nick Allen, is called out for "plainly fraudulent journalism" and "a river of lies" is big red flag to me. Rather than saying silly things -- obviously we will remove references which actually do "say false things on purpose", so why imply we shouldn't -- can you mount any defense of this source? Herostratus (talk) 01:10, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Got anything better than a six-year-old editorial where a left-wing writer criticizes a right-wing writer for writing right-wing things? So far, all you have presented is your opinion that the esquire writer is saying false things on purpose. In particular, do you have the slightest shred of evidence that the language in the current version of the article that the telegraph citation is used to support ("WikiLeaks offered $20,000 in reward money for providing information regarding the perpetrator of this crime.") is not true? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:42, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

To cut a long story short, my general thoughts on newspaper sources is they are okay as a "stand-in" source or to flesh out detail, but generally I would not choose it over as a critically acclaimed book or thoroughly researched report written ten years after the event which may not exist. The Telegraph has historically had a pro-Conservative bias (which is why it's nicknamed the Torygraph) but otherwise is considered a broadsheet-style paper like the Times and Guardian with a solid reputation of fact-checking and minimum sensationalism. Of course, that doesn't imply everything they say is true or accurate, like any newspaper. Reading the piece linked here, I immediately get the impression it is calling the Wikileaks events a conspiracy theory without making any serious attempt to show the reader it is true. With such a small article, it is probably not a prominent enough viewpoint to include right now, until there's any more detail that can be fleshed out from other sources. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:47, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Quite agree that The Telegraph is one of the UK newspapers where one would least expect to see POV issues (unless something was quoted directly from the Editorial). Robbery is only successful if something is taken, although in UK there is the separate offence of "Assault with intent to rob", see [19]. So I see no problem at all. The Telegraph, like any UK source reporting an ongoing crime investigation, is dependent on what the police tells it and this is often not a full (or even always consistent) account of what may have occurred. But this happened in the US, of course, so the situation may be totally different and/or something may have been "lost in translation"? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:06, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

In a pattern now quite familiar to those who have been watching the page, once again an attempt has been made to delete the source[20] with zero evidence that it is not a reliable source for the statement in the article ("WikiLeaks offered an additional $20,000 reward for information leading to a conviction") that the source is being used to support. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:19, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Overall, its in a similar place as Fox News, whatever that means to you. Rhoark (talk) 14:24, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

mmm no. fFox News is more like RT. Fine for trivia but not for anything important or controversial Jytdog (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong with the Telegraph as a source generally - they are a major news paper with a reputation for fact checking. There is nothing wrong with the specific content and the specific article used to source it. Jytdog (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• Unfortunately, I have to agree that this particular article appears to be OK to use as a source. I generally do not agree with Guy, but in this case I agree that he is correct. Also, until this discussion, I didn't know if the Telegraph has a reputation for fact checking - now I know. Steve Quinn (talk) 18:49, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• I am changing my assessment. I do not consider this a reliable source. I mistakenly thought this was only sourcing the police reward. I did not realize it was being used to support the WikiLeaks reward. Obviously this source for the WikiLeaks reward was removed from the article and was therefore being contended, and should not have been restored. In any case, if it is in the article, a more serious mainstream independent (reliable) source is required. In this instance, it is pretty clear the author has a penchant for sensationalism [21] , who is best at covering Hollywood gossip and seems to miss the mark on significant issues - as pointed out by User:Herostratus and his source. For such a small article, we are giving this source with questionable motives, generalizations, and much innuendo is too much weight to carry the burden of sourcing for the WikiLeaks reward - as noted by Ritchie333. Previously I misread what editors' assessments were and, as i said, I thought this was sourcing only the mundane police reward factoid. The WikiLeaks reward has been highly controversial in the press. Lastly, Space4Time3Continuum2x seems to hit the nail on the head, point by point in my opinion. I apologize to everyone about the misunderstanding. Steve Quinn (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• Are we even discussing the same reference? Within a 24-hour period, three different editors have removed it as an unreliable and/or redundant source, and GuyMacon reverted their edits three times. Nick Allen is not a respected or reliable journalist (see Herostratus' Esquire link, above). The article itself is pure trash. More than half of it is a lengthy direct Assange quote, while the rest consists of
  • rumors (swirling speculation in Washington - only on the conspiracy theories websites),
  • uncorroborated "facts" (shot in the head – get it (nudge, nudge), execution style?), i.e., otherwise known as totally made up; on top of that, this particular factoid was already removed from the article itself per this discussion, but we're putting the trashy and gossipy source back in?
  • innuendo by drawing a direct line from the shooting to the publication of the stolen emails (unsourced rumor-mongering).
  • As for the newspaper that employs this "journalist", the Telegraph has lately been renowned for reporting several people dead who weren’t, it has several major conflicts of interest because of being paid large amounts of money by companies and a Russian government-owned newspaper, and so on. So no, not a reliable source per se. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:19, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Thank you for your personal opinions about the source. Do you have the tiniest shred of evidence that it is not a reliable source for the statement in the article ("WikiLeaks offered an additional $20,000 reward for information leading to a conviction") that the source is being used to support? Can you find a single source that even hints that the statement in the article is not true?
    • Multiple editors being willing to revert is not a good metric of consensus. We had multiple editors willing to revert to keep the bare fact that Wikileaks offered a reward out of the article, and they showed themselves willing to do so even after the RfC made it clear that there was roughly a 3:1 consensus for retaining the information about the Wikileaks reward. This appears to be a continuation of that refusal to accept the consensus of the community. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

• Guy, I don't agree with your behavior. (Redacted) Steve Quinn (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
• GuyMacon. RE Opinion: You're welcome and right back at ya. As with any law/rule: x % written text, y % (personal) interpretation.

-Tiniest shred of evidence: I was talking about the really biiiiiig one, i.e., "shot twice in the head". You are misquoting me.

-Attempting to second-guess me again? Nope, nope, aaand nope. Do what continuation of what refusal to accept what now? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 05:07, 17 September 2016 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 05:10, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

This noticeoboard is of no value if it's the same editors coming here from the article talk page. The idea is to get independent viewpoints. The issue at hand on the talk page is why we should use the Telegraph when there are unquestionably better sources such as the Washington Post for the facts presented in the article text. The Telegraph insinuates all the conspiracy and anti-Clinton mongering by incorporating and pointing to that much weaker, redundant reference. SPECIFICO talk 21:10, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Wait, I think there's some misunderstanding. This wasn't about ref'ing the Assange reward. The ref was used to source the statement "Police stated that he may have been killed in an attempted robbery but that his belongings were not taken" with IMO the subtext "and that's odd for a simple robbery, which is why we mention it". The question I asked was, is the Daily Telegraph piece sufficiently fact-checked and reliable (and neutral) us to use it for the implied statement "People being killed in an apparent botched robbery, but their belongings not taken, is sufficiently unusual to be remarkable", Herostratus (talk) 23:21, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

No misunderstanding. The point is that for the content you just copied, in bold, there are numerous better sources than the telegraph. By choosing the dicey Telegraph citation, it gets the Telegraph link in the article, and at that Telegraph page we see all the conspiracy and poorly-sourced statements. SPECIFICO talk 00:59, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

The police statement is a simple fact, reported speech. It relates to another fact in the real world, an assault. The Telegraph reports the first fact. That's what's been added to the article. How can there be any "better source" for that? If the words had been sourced from a police website, it would be

WP:OR? We can't be responsible for what article readers decide to read or not read when they look at a source (assuming they even look at all). The Telegraph is one of the best UK newspaper sources we have. But I see that the article now uses Newsweek as the source: I guess a US source might well be better than a UK one. The Telegraph is just used to support the reward. But are you suggesting the source can't be used at all, in case readers go and read something "dicey"? Martinevans123 (talk

) 09:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

We have at least two sources for the reward offer in the article; we just need to add the second one to that particular sentence. As for the Telegraph reporting the facts as the police first reported them, it most decidedly did not. The reliable sources reported that the victim was shot; “shot in the head“ and – even worse – “in the back of the head“ came straight from the conspiracy fringe. Here are a couple of the sources, one from immediately after the shooting and one from the day after the reward offer. I can’t speak for Specifico; for my part, I’m suggesting that this particular article is an unreliable source at best and should not be used. The journalist didn't do his job researching, and his editor didn't do his/her job fact-checking, and that's assuming that none of this was intentional because sensationalist & titillating sells better than mere boring facts. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:13, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

So is there a primary source, from the police, stating exactly what did happen, against which we are comparing all the secondary newspaper sources? I'm getting confused as to what is "straight from the conspiracy fringe" and what isn't. The exact wording from The Telegraph is:

"Seth Rich, 27, was shot twice in the head in what appeared to be an attempted robbery near his home in a suburb of the US capital on July 10, but his belongings were not taken."

Which part(s) of that do you have a problem with? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

It's a recent open case, one of numerous similar ones in the area and around the time. The police department doesn't comment on the status of ongoing investigations. The primary source is the MPDC press release which says that police officers “located an adult male victim conscious and breathing, and suffering from gunshot wounds.“ And this report of victim's mother and the MPDC police chief asking the public for assistance. I have two problems with the sentence ayou quoted:

1. "Twice in the head" - see my initial post 19:19, 16 September 2016
2. "but his belongings were not taken". It's loaded language straight from the conspiracy theorist's handbook with the subtext "they say it appeared to be (something) but we know better". See also Neutrality's comment (I believe he/she is an admin) at 15:04, 15 September 2016. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 06:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

If the initial source for "Twice in the head" can be shown to be unreliable, then it should left out. Wholly agree with User:Neutrality's comment about the redundancy of the word "but", and I suspect there is no distinction here between US and UK law. It looks more like a grammatical error than "loaded language straight from the conspiracy theorist's handbook". Martinevans123 (talk) 09:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I ran several searches with combinations of name + head + shot, but every time the Telegraph article was the only one that contained them. The other search results, even the conspiracy sites, all said "shot dead", "shot in the back", etc. The author does not say where he obtained the information, so it looks to me like he made it up. Well, this may be a moot point now; not sure how Herostratus counted, I'm gonna ask him on the Talk page. If you’re interested in the rest of the story, Snopes (I don’t know if you’re familiar with them in the UK; they’re Canadian/US fact checkers who got fact-checked by FactCheck.org and received an A rating) thoroughly debunked it. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

As if any self-respecting Torygraph reader would entertain such subversive drivel. Maybe we could just replace the article with a redirect to that Snopes article? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Specifico, I think there may be a misunderstanding here? Herostratus was the first editor to remove the Telegraph reference, you were the second one, and I the third, and we all got reverted by Guy Macon. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Curiosity took me to have a look at the article. I think there has been a lot of troubling editing going on there, and a troubling distortion of Wikipedia guidelines (such as BLP and consensus) to support that editing. We have some of that distortion revealed in the initial post here: "This sure looks like editorializing on the part of The Daily Telegraph" given as a reason to exclude the source. However, sources can editorialize as much as they want, the Wikipedia guidelines forbidding editorializing is about Wikipedia editors editorializing the content of sources. My feeling is that this article has been censored to the point that the subject's notability has been entirely removed - it would now almost qualify as an AfD candidate. The "speculation / conspiracy" stuff that some editors working on it are wanting to exclude [22] is what makes the subject notable - remove it and all we have left is a non-notable murder. I think the article urgently needs some new pairs of editorial eyes to look at it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't think you really mean "sources can editorialize as much as they want". That'd amount to saying we can use editorials to reference statements of fact (that is what sources are used for) -- thus "Barack Hussein Obama II (US Listeni/bəˈrɑːk huːˈseɪn oʊˈbɑːmə/; born August 4, 1961) is an American politician who is the 44th and current President of the United States. He is dedicated to the humiliation and destruction of the United States.", the second sentence sourced to an editorial or an editorializing "news story". Well that would make for some fun edit wars. Herostratus (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Of course I mean what I wrote - sources can editorialize as much as they want; for newspapers their primary function is to editorialize. Without editorializing the source would be a primary source. Editorializing is interpreting facts, sifting out inaccuracies or irrelevancies, finding connections, with the aim of making a coherent story out of them. Your example is just an example of a Wikipedia editor misusing sources to support his/her pov: the "news story" is expressing an opinion, so the content would need to be worded to make that clear, and the opinion is obviously fringe, so would be unlikely to be usable at all and certainly not usable in a lede. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

OK. Well we are getting a bit off topic here I guess... You are using the word ""editorialize" to mean "write a news story". I gather you are making the point "there is no such thing as a neutral secondary source, all things are written by humans and all humans have opinions and no human can prevent her opinion being the operative factor when deciding what facts to include in a news story." This is a sour and extreme position, and leaves us able to use opinion columns to reference statements of fact -- after all, everything is either a primary source or an editorial, according to you. Thus we do end up with no reason not include material such as "He is dedicated to the humiliation and destruction of the United States" if we can ref it to an editorial. Can you see why this would make it impossible to write an encyclopedia? Because there are always competing opinion pieces!

If I may gently suggest, you are entitled to your opinion, but what on earth are you doing at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard if you think all non-primary sources are editorials? I don't see how you can contribute beyond saying "OK" to everything... Herostratus (talk) 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Please stop claiming I have said something when actually I have said nothing of the sort, as well as stopping claiming that I did not mean what I had clearly expressed. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

OK! Herostratus (talk) 22:20, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Summary

Counting noses and arguments, it looks like the consensus is that the Daily Telegraph is a reliable and neutral source generally and in this instance in particular, and very much thanks to my colleauges who took the time and effort to help out here. Herostratus (talk) 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• There's absolutely no question whatsoever about this. The Daily Telegraph is obviously
  WP:AGF to the breaking point. Dlabtot (talk
  ) 09:41, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

The Telegraph is, indeed, a presumptively reliable source. Newsweek says "Strangely, however, they found his wallet, credit cards and cellphone on his body" so if you eliminate the Telegraph as somehow unreliable by reason of the Telegraph suggesting an incongruence one could just turn to Newsweek to make the same point. Is Newsweek therefore unreliable as well? The direction of the reasoning here is disturbing: source provides a bit of material used by those whom WIkipedians consider conspiracists therefore source is unreliable? Does everyone appreciate the circularity of such thinking?--Brian Dell (talk) 00:52, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be some concern about "How do we know what we know about #Gamergate?" in the CJR. The question does not concern its use in the article, but on whether its description of the landscape of other publications on the topic is a significant resource for informing article structure. That discussion is here. I don't quite understand the objections, but they apparently pertain in part to the qualifications of the author, Chris Ip. The article has been discussed once before on RSN. Rhoark (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

A lot of CJR stories are "meta" / analytical pieces. As such it's not like one has to assume anything is being fabricated if a piece is disputed, it's just that the author has an opinion and perhaps not everyone agrees with it. Attribution to either CJR or the author may be ordinarily in order if it's a analytical / overview claim. As for exclusion even with attribution, just how reliable are the disputing sources? One cannot look at this sort of article in isolation, in isolation it's presumptively reliable. How good is the argument that the author here is off base?--Brian Dell (talk) 01:09, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

CJR is mostly analysis and commentary (and is a very well regarded source for such). Whether to include/how much to include is thus really a question of

proper weight rather than reliability. In-text attribution may sometimes be called for when citing a CJR opinion piece. Neutrality^talk

04:25, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Not saying any of that necessarily makes the source unusable - but it certainly affects its weight. This wasn't written by a particularly experienced or well-known journalist, so whatever weight it carries comes from it's appearance on the CJR's blog. Fyddlestix (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

At Gilbert Achcar

• Epson Salts added Matthias Küntzel reviewing Achcar’s book negatively (he was criticized in that book)
• Epson Salts removed Miriyam Aouragh reviewing Achcar’s book positively.

• Aouragh is an Arabist, an anthropologist, a Leverhulme Research Fellow who teaches at University of Westminster.

The editors opposed to Miriyam Aouragh’s inclusion support the retention of Matthias Küntzel. I support the retention of both. She is an Arabist, qualified formally in the topic area: he has no technical background in Middle Eastern studies, no knowledge of Arabic, and is strongly criticized by German Arabists as incompetent. For those who cannot read German, the German wiki states he is a 'publicist' and several of the most prominent German Arabists dismiss his books, published by such distinguished publishing houses as

(a) wiki policy on RS does not appear in my view to be applied neutrally here, since the criteria being applied vary according to the position taken by the scholar in question: an Arabist with a university post is excluded, a non-Arabist with a university position is accepted, from a section dealing with Achcar's views and their reception. (b) All that concerns me is to hear from neutral third party experts here whether or not Miriyam Aouragh, used already with attribution, is a reliable source for a review of a book by Gilbert Achcar?Nishidani (talk) 19:21, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Here [23] is Aouragh's profile. As you can clearly see she lacks any expertise in this particular subject (which is Arabs and the Holocaust). Her opinion was published in a self proclaimed group blog with an ideological bent.

Here [24] are some of Kuntzel's relevant publications. His review was published in CISA.

Contrast and compare. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

His status as a scholar in this field is reflected by the fact he has a tenured part-time position as a teacher of political science at a technical college in Hamburg, Germany. This, on the other hand, is Miriyam Aouragh's updated profile as a university fellow and lecturer in Arabic studies, including teaching Cyber Politics of the Middle East at the Oxford Middle East Centre. Achcar's whole book is about the politics of spinning Arabs in western reportage, right up her alley.Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Please note that the German education system does not map well to English language terms at all. Küntzel is a part-time teacher at a Gewerbeschule - the best translation might be "vocational school". It is a school where people who do a traditional apprenticeship fulfil their compulsory school attendance, and where they learn some of the theoretical skills of their chosen craft or trade. This is not an establishment of higher eduction. The term "tenured" is also problematic - in Germany, most teachers are either Angestellte im öffentlichen Dienst (public service employees) or Beamte (civil servants). Most of these people have permanent positions. Permanent public service employees have job security comparable to tenure, Beamte auf Lebenszeit have job security even better than that. Either could claim to be "tenured" in that sense (although normal teachers do not enjoy the status and freedoms of university professors). Anyway, for a teacher a few years into his or her career, "tenure" in the above sense is the normal state in Germany (and was even more prevalent in 1992). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:00, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Stephan. Numerous institutional words don't translate except by generating similar misprisions (public school/private school etc.etc. I went to a public school that I have to explain was a private school in other countries), even within Anglophone usage, of course.Nishidani (talk) 22:50, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

As No More Mr Nice Guy writes, Küntzel is a published by academic sources on this exact topic. The virtually unknown Ms. Aouragh is published in an extremist group blog - a source explictly disallowed by

• Eh, there is no doubt that an academic like Dr. Aouragh is perfectly acceptable to comment on a topic like a book by Gilbert Achcar. What is this, just hatred of academics and expertise? And are these critics here aware of how academics get their degrees? of how broad one's expertise typically is, and of how many years academics spent getting their degrees? Drmies (talk) 01:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
• OK, I wrote up her article, using nothing but the first two pages of search results on Google Books--for a scholar who really just graduated, it's amazing to see how frequently she is being cited. And I haven't even looked at JSTOR; a more up-to-date academic database is probably better than JSTOR. Besides, there's hits all over the Dutch news media, all of which confirm her notability. With a Ph.D., and a postdoc at Oxford, and a position at Westminster, and citations full of praise (follow the links to GBooks in her article), her work on social media, internet activism, and the Arab world makes her eminently qualified. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Could you elaborate exactly how here work on social media and internet activism makes her "eminently qualified" to opine on the relationship between WWII-era Arab antisemitism and Nazism? Have any of the frequent cites she's been receiving been on this topic? Epson Salts (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

• You sound like a public school administrator asking one of the teachers to give a minute-by-minute plan for class including educational goals and learning outcomes, including how to measure each and every one of them. It is also public knowledge that such administrators know nothing about teaching. In other words, I think you are being deliberately obtrusive; I am reminded of the student who refuses to learn and asks whether this is going to be on the test.

  If you had read the review (I just did), and if you knew anything about academic writing, you'd recognize that this review is written by someone who obviously knows her stuff, including historical developments, major academic and other opinions on history, and the various critiques from various angles of those opinions and interpretations. I note also that you (deliberately?) cite only "social media and internet activism", which of course are taking place in a context--that of the Arab Spring in Lebanon, Palestine, and Jordan, a range of events that one cannot understand without a thorough grounding in the history of that region, including colonialism, two World Wars, the competition and cooperation between three major religions, etc. She got a Ph.D. in that area from a pretty decent university. Come get a graduate degree, and you'll see how much you need to know. Now, I understand that you don't like this person's politics and activism, but that doesn't make them wrong or, for the present discussion, unqualified. Drmies (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Kindly stop the condescending personal attacks (I have a graduate degree, than you very much) and answer what I asked you, using wikipedia policy, if you can: How does her work on social media and internet activism make her "eminently qualified" to opine on the relationship between WWII-era Arab antisemitism and Nazism? Have any of the frequent cites she's been receiving been on this topic? You just wrote an article about her, which clearly labels her as an "anthropologist who specializes in social media and internet activism." Not a word about history, antisemitism or Nazism, and with good reason - here scholarship is not in those areas, nor remotely related to them. My opposition to her has nothing to do with her views- they are identical to those of Tariq Ali who is quoted in the artilce - but with the clear violation of wikipedia policy on the usage of activist blogs as sources. Epson Salts (talk) 03:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

(e/c):::Just a slight correction there Drmies if you will allow me. There was no Arab spring in Palestine, as that is Israel, a haven of democracy, free speech, relative peace and sanity in a region gone insane. If you are referring to the Palestinian Territories, there has been no spring there, but unfortunately a repressive government holding on to power, with no press freedom or even a timeframe for the next elections. Abbas has been de facto strongman since 2006. The Arab Spring phenomena of 2010 has turned into an ice age, the ice splattered with hundreds of thousands of dead. See Syria, as we all do daily, barrel bombs, chlorine vapor and all. Just a gentle correction. Simon.

• I meant to say "Arab world" but typed "Lebanon". Sorry. Epson Salts, I have indicated well enough, I think, that a Ph.D. in that field, which includes the history of the region, should be enough to qualify her. I don't know what your degree is in, but if it's in molecular physics, for instance, I would say you should be qualified to render a valid opinion on a book published in a closely related field ("nor remotely related" is silly"). And yes, that is the "label", in the lead, but there is more in the body of the article, and you are welcome to do a little JSTORring or bookreading to see what all her research involves. As for condescending, I find your line of questioning condescending. I might counter, for instance, that someone who teaches part-time at a technical college is less likely to qualify, but his resume is obviously strong enough--you, on the other hand, called Aouragh "virtually unknown", which shows you didn't look since she is pretty well known, and speaking of condescending, you called her "Ms. Aouragh"--try "Dr. Aouragh", Mr. Epson Salts. Besides, as Nishidani says, "Achcar's whole book is about the politics of spinning Arabs in western reportage, right up her alley". Drmies (talk) 04:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Unlike you, I did look at what here research involves, and quoted it right above - and it is not history, nor anti-Semitism , nor relationship between Nazims and Aranb antisemitism,m. It is about Activism on the internet, and the use of social media for politics. These topics are not related to the views she is quoted on, at all. Let's see if I get your argument: A PhD in anthropology, whith a tehsis about inetrnat activism in the Levant makes one qualified to comment on historical events like WWII, Nazism, and 1930s Arab antisemitism,? That's really what you are claiming? Epson Salts (talk) 13:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Aouragh's review is too partisan for my liking. But Künstel's review is also highly partisan, and he is also known as an activist at one edge of the spectrum. Künstel also has a COI: Achcar derided him as "an 'expert' on Islamic questions who does not know Arabic" and called his book a "fantasy-based narrative pasted together out of secondary sources and third-hand reports" (p163). I'd prefer to leave both of them out, with the second best option being to leave both of them in. Excluding Aouragh and including Künstel on the totally fatuous reasoning provided here would be a blatant NPOV violation. It is perfectly obvious that Aouragh is a qualified commentator whose expertise is related to the content of Achcar's book. Her review can be cited with attribution, or it can be removed along with Künstel's. Zero^talk 09:31, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

• They are obviously both "activists", for lack of a better term, which we could mark, yes. Drmies (talk) 12:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I am inclined to follow

talk

) 12:30, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

There is already an academic with her views, quoted in the article- Tariq Ali. The problem is that Nishidani misreads the NPOV s demanding an equal number of positive and crirical reviews for 'balance'. That a misunderstanding of policy. Epson Salts (talk) 13:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

No, Nishidani is arguing that it would be very unfair and highly POV to leave the one (Küntzel) and chuck the other (Aouragh), esp. on the basis of a notability argument which, as I think we have argued here, does not apply. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you argued so, but not very convincingly. Both Küntzel and Aouraghare academics, but that's about were any similarly ends. Kuntzel is published, on this exact topic - the relationship between Arab antisemitism and Nazim in academic peer reviewed sources - for example this or this (as just a small subset). He was a was a research associate at the Vidal Sassoon International Centre for the Study of Antisemitism (SICSA) for 9 years and is currently employed by the Canadian Institute for the Study of Antisemitism, on whose behalf he published the review of the book. In contrast, Aouragh is an anthropologist with a research interest in internet activism, who has not published a as ingle thing related to the topic in academic venues - her review was posted on an political group blog - exactly the kind of sources that [{WP:RS]] warns against. There is simply no equivalence here, and the tit-for-tat- game being played has no basis in fact. Epson Salts (talk) 22:53, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Drmies, precisely. In all of these edit conflicts, see again the talk page, I am making a plea for consistency in application of policy. My argument was, 'if Kuenzel, then Aouragh cannot be objected to,' esp. since she has superior qualifications in the field. Zero's argument takes this to a logic conclusion; if Aouragh goes out, Kuenzel is automatically excluded. I'm almost always inclined to defer to Zero on most of these calls, but on this, I think of the precedent it sets: I too find Aouragh partisan, naively vetero-ideological indeed, in her analytic approach (which doesn't exclude her utility. After all many a liberal scholar has found things of heuristic value in Marx, and many radicals appreciate John Stuart Mill). But this is true of a huge number of experts used reflexly on I/P pages, who are never questioned, experts on 'Arabs' with no knowledge of Arabic. On the same page we have Jeffrey Herf, a distinguished scholar in his own territory of expertise who, however, as Robert Irwin notes, 'has no Arabic and this has prevented him from accurately assessing the impact of Nazi propaganda during and after the war.' I've given a long précis of his opinions on the Islamophobia article, but none of his talking points seem to be taken too seriously in the higher scholarly literature on this issue. I'm a bit wary of the implications of Zero's parallelism. Strictly speaking, a review of Achcar's work on the Arabs and the Holocaust would require someone with some qualitative knowledge of Arabic and primary sources and secondary sources in that field. Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous argument. You can't say that a bad source must remain because it supposedly balances another source. As I said on the talk page, you can discuss the other source's removal as well if you want. You could replace the removed source with another, better source. Each source is judged on its own merit, not on how it may or may not balance another one in the article.

Also, I find the idea that someone who studied media and teaches media and published mainly about media is considered prima facie an expert on any and all history of the people whose media she is studied/teaches. That is patently ridiculous. The fact she published this piece in an ideologically sympathetic group blog is also a hint here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say Aouragh was a bad source, and your interpretation of my views is a caricature. A large amount of the material I read I find (personally) unsatisfactory either for the slant taken, or some theoretical option exercised I may be critical of (this means nearly everything I read in newspapers on these topics strikes me as bizarre. But I use those sources because policy and the consensus of editors accepts them). I'd say 80% of the documentation I see on the average IP page is unacceptable in scholarly terms, but the rules don't impose much of a high bar, and there is a lamentable tendency to use policy to excise what editors dislike, and ignore that interpretation for stuff an editor likes. When you have an area as toxically ridden with spin from all sides, as this one, or as poorly reported, then one must be careful of jumping on any policy excuse to exclude stuff one dislikes. I think Drmies has done sufficient legwork to give reasonable grounds that justify Aouragh's inclusion. The only reason for keeping Kuenzel in is to maintain parity, i.e. the balance the pros and the contras. Maintaining parity by excluding both assumes that Aouragh is as poorly qualified as Kuenzel, which is not the case. Scholarship does not think in terms of such 'sacrificial gambits'. Nishidani (talk) 22:12, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

• If we are accepting little-known academics for their expertise, it requires their expertise actually be in the area concerned. Not around the edges of it. She is not published on the topic of the book, does not lecture in this topic and as far as I can see, has not qualified in it. If the book was in her specialty, it would be a no-brainer. As it stands, including her would give undue weight to an opinion that is neither notable by itself (its not been cited elsewhere, commented on, or even published in a more 'reliable' location) or even of relevance. Küntzel's opinion as a published academic in precisely this area is. Even if it is not positive. This looks like an attempt to 'balance' a good source with a much weaker one just because the good one is negative. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:06, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Errr, sorry to perhaps burst your bubbles, but is the article in question actually by Miriyam Aouragh? I think it is not. Has nobody noticed that the embedded link in the author's name [27] actually leads to Philip Weiss, not Miriyam Aouragh, and that Miriyam Aouragh's name is crossed out in the publisher's newsletter reposted here [28], and that the article's author is given as Phillip Weiss elsewhere on the mondoweiss website [29]. And it is listed amongst his articles here [30]. Bubbles are all burst, I think. But at least Miriyam Aouragh got a Wikipedia article out of it. :) Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Miriyam Aouragh claims that article on her own web page and it is the sort of article she would write. The discrepancy is more likely a glitch made by Mondoweiss. The lists of articles by each author are probably generated automatically so only one editing error was needed. The page with crossings out does not just cross out her name but also crosses out the title, so it says nothing about authorship. On balance the evidence that Aouragh wrote it is much stronger than the contrary. Zero^talk 03:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I suggest someone email Philip Weiss or Miriyam Aouragh - Philip Weiss is probably the one more likely to respond quickly. There is no point in discussing a source until its authorship is known for certain. It isn't Miriyam Aouragh's own website, it is a website of a department of the University of Oxford, and the section is "past visitors" so it is unlikely that Miriyam Aouragh has or ever had the ability to edit the page concerning her and its content may just be the work of an unconnected researcher. Miriyam Aouragh has not written anything else on the Mondoweiss site, which makes her name beside this one solitary article unusual. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Every article hosted on Mondoweiss has a description of the author's background at the bottom of the article. This one has Miriyam Aouragh, so whatever the glitches, Mondoweiss attributes it to her.Nishidani (talk) 22:50, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't - it has Philip Weiss's background at the bottom of the article. I am viewing it using Google Chrome. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:25, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

The review in Mondoweiss is a version of a review posted on Aouragh's personal blog. So the authorship is beyond question. Zero^talk 02:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Probable yes, but not beyond question. There is no author's name on it, and Miriyam Aouragh's site has articles by other people on it. I have sent an email to Philip Weiss. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:44, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

In the AfD for The Latin Testament Project there's an editor who is arguing for various sources as a sign of notability. Many of them are unusable, such as a personal email by someone asking to use text from one of the books in the project, as that's a SPS at best. However the email states that the person is going to use that text in a book published through the University Press of the Catholic University of Lublin, which looks like it also goes by the name of Wydawnictwo KUL, at least via their URL.

I'm not familiar with this like I would be the Yale University press, but it offhand seems like it should be usable given the university's ranking in Poland. What say you guys? This one is iffy since I've not familiar with the publisher and I know that being a university press isn't always an automatic seal of usability. Their books do seem to get referenced here and there. I don't see a lot, but then we also have to take the language barrier into consideration.

Hi, I think that sort of book, if published, would be reliable for this kind of content. However, having an entire article devoted to this project based on a mention in one book seems

WP:UNDUE, and a mention at e.g. Bible translations could be more approproate. That is, once the book is published. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk

) 17:46, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

The source should have used an indirect quote instead of a direct quote, but you can provide an indirect quote based on this source without being concerned that they have erroneously used a direct quote. Fabrickator (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

There is an ambiguity in use of primary and secondary sources in legal articles. Please comment at WikiProject Law here. Note I changed this initial comment after the comment by TheBlueCanoe below.

This would seem like the definition of a primary source. Not that primary sources are completely off the table; they can be used as RS in limited circumstances. TheBlueCanoe 04:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, TheBlueCanoe. I altered my initial comment above yours, for clarification of the request for comment, and referred all commenting to one section at WikiProjec Law. MBUSHIstory (talk) 13:18, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

@

Following is the contents of the last discussion in entirety:

Digging around I found out that this "Rebel Magazine" is not even the Rebel Magazine we have an article on ([31]), but instead some obscure Arizona Christian publication. A publication so non-notable that it doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia, and so poorly managed that none of their websites ([32] [33]) are even functional (though they do have a facebook page [34]. Therefore this source should not be considered as reliable on any article, including

Stevietheman insists on an RfC being made for this. He refuses to do that himself, despite my protests, that in my limited experience I don't feel comfortable doing that and even if I did, I have no idea which category to file it in. If the passing reader would please create an RfC for this, I guess it would be helpful?? -75.140.253.89 (talk) 05:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

an RfC where? And for what edit? Reliability isn't a default position, User:Rhoark is right. Doug Weller talk 20:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

As per this discussion closed by an uninvolved administrator, there is a clear consensus on the article talk page that the source and statement (which is that the article subject's parents are of Caucasian and African-American descent) are acceptable; no reliable sources dispute the statement and the anonymous editor in question (who was blocked 72 hours for BLP violations relating to the subject and strongly advised to disengage from the topic area) is the only user prolonging the argument. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I looked at that discussion you linked to and it did not appear to be a discussion about whether Rebel was a reliable source according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. When its reliability was mentioned, the discussion seemed to be no more than "it is" vs "it isn't". Over here reasons are required about whether or not it is a reliable source. --Bob K31416 (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I looked at the website and couldn't find any information regarding editorial oversight nor any names of anyone who runs the website. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

[Please note that there is currently a discussion at

Can Entertainment.ie be used as a reliable source? Specifically, this article reviewing one of Onnit's products. There is currently an RfC discussion on Onnit's talk page in which the entertainment.ie article's reliability may influence some decisions. Thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 01:00, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

"Exclusive Discount Code" (The guys there have even been good enough to give us an exclusive discount code for our readers, so enter the code ‘mancave10’ to get 10% off any purchase of Onnit supplements on site.) is a bit of a red flag here - the "review" is a compensated one as a result, and is no more a "reliable source" than the many celebrity "endorsements" of weight loss products are. Collect (talk) 10:42, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Ahh I see. Good find. Not reliable then, thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 00:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

I nominated the Joachim Helbig article for community reassessment due to sourcing concerns:

• 21 citations to Franz Kurowski (please see linked article)
• 5 citations to a book from the right-wing German publisher VDM Heinz Nickel [de] (pls see linked article)
• 10 citations to an author from the same imprint
• 12 citations to a self-published source

Any additional input would be welcome. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:59, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Of the subjected article, can this can be considered a reliable source since it comes from odatv.com, it's not a blog or a forum but an online news site, they have published the interview with a descendant of the subjected woman. Is this website trustworthy? For the same subject, please advise if this second source can be considered reliable. The second one is archived from 2003, way before any TV serial aired. This source says that

Crash Override Network (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Gamergaters want to include information on this page which is sourced to a rightwing political rags The Washington Examiner and Heat Street.

[37]

jps (talk) 12:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Reliability does not appear to be a factor. The Washington Examiner is a reliable news source; and reliability is not affected by source bias or position on political spectra (per

'c.s.n.s.'

12:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I find your statements troubling

WP:QUESTIONABLE most of the references in the article would be thrown out since no fact checking was done except by Reference #14 which issued an update to the article. If you still want to pursue this, I can go through each reference with a fine tooth comb and issue a redaction for the ones that fail to meet the standards of a reliable source with detailed documentation. I would suggest you put your personal bias aside. 2601:140:8100:BC7C:6944:B648:F326:FB9F (talk

) 14:10, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

A biased source like Washington Examiner can be used for some things, but it depends on the context. Simply being biased doesn't mean it's unreliable, but for some sources (like both of these), that bias is prioritized such that the publications do not have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and take to publishing

WP:WEIGHT to merit inclusion. — Rhododendrites ^talk

\\ 20:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on that bias is prioritized such that the publications do not have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? Are you saying there are instances of inaccuracy and lack of fact-checking or that their bias is strong enough that a reputation for accuracy is irrelevant?

If that article does espouse FRINGE positions they're not represented in our article; here's the current text:

An August 2016 leak of chat logs among members who would go on to found the group suggested some participated in doxing and harassment of Gamergate supporters.[13] Ian Miles Cheong says he was a member of the chat group and that the logs are genuine.[14]

The claim we repeat from the article is uncontroversial - supported by primary documents, confirmed by a participant. As far as I'm aware no publication has countered the article's interpretation or offered an contrary interpretation. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:56, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying there are instances of inaccuracy and lack of fact-checking or that their bias is strong enough that a reputation for accuracy is irrelevant? - Not the latter; more or less the former. The promotion of

WP:FRINGE perspectives is part of what calls their reputation for accuracy into question -- I didn't mean that particular article did so. They do not have a good reputation for fact-checking and accuracy in the way they report on contentious political topics (including social topics with a conservative/liberal angle, like gamergate). Doesn't mean it's precluded from use, but if the only sources for a particular claim are sources that are those with a bias relevant to that claim, it's considered fringe. I'm talking more about use of these sources in general than this particular instance btw. (i.e. I'm more reacting Ryk72's comments than jps's). — Rhododendrites ^talk

\\ 19:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, I'm not finding support in either policy or guidelines for if the only sources for a particular claim are sources that are those with a bias relevant to that claim, it's considered fringe; nor evidence that this is a generally applied principle. Nor am I seeing anything in the history of this noticeboard which supports a consensus that the Washington Examiner promotes

'c.s.n.s.'

00:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Tell that to those who are predisposed to want to include rightwing muckraking in Wikipedia articles, I guess. [38] jps (talk) 16:09, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

'c.s.n.s.'

18:26, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Woah there, in what world do the Guardian and the the examiner have "similar levels of political bias"? One is a major newspaper of record which has been around (and been widely respected) for decades, the other is... not. The sources we're discussing here are both badly and obviously biased, especially when it comes to this subject/topic. Way to little weight to include this, even as an attributed opinion. If these are really the best sources out there then I'd say it's obvious the content should not be included. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:13, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The Guardian has a well-recognised bias in it's ideological & political viewpoints with influences it's editorial & journalistic processes. This is not unusual. The same is true of many or most newspapers. The Washington Post has such a bias that a presidential candidate from a major political party has banned it from campaign events. Murdoch owned media has a well-known bias internationally. In Japan, both the

'c.s.n.s.'

00:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

It so happens we have a reliably sourced section on

The Washington Examiner#Political stance. Rhoark (talk

) 19:38, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The idea that The Guardian is a reliable source regarding anything directly or indirectly related to the gamergate controversy is utterly laughable. Editors at The Guardian went as far as to tell their writers not to cover it until Leigh Alexander, an individual at the center of the controversy had the opportunity to propagandize their staff and dictate the narrative. Meanwhile people are arguing that a primary source that has personally verified the validity of the documents is unreliable. What a joke. 24.84.155.22 (talk) 00:39, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

(

WP:NPOV. — Rhododendrites ^talk

\\ 19:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The Guardian was chosen deliberately, because it is so well-recognised as having a political & ideological bias; and yet so clearly considered reliable. The issue which was raised

'c.s.n.s.'

00:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)