Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Zaian War

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:47, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Zaian War

Nominator(s): Dumelow (talk)


This is a little known (at least outside of France and Morocco) French colonial war and an article that I would love to eventually take to FAC. I have been gradually working on it over the past three years and it has recently received a peer review which has helped me with the style and grammar in particular. I think this article is ready for an A-class review and welcome any comments, bearing in mind that it was four years yesterday since my last article went through a review and I am almost certainly out of touch with current requirements here and at FAC! Many thanks - Dumelow (talk) 21:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Welcome back! A couple of things about images (generally good):

  • File:SenegalSoldats1914.jpg says the author's death date is unknown. In the circumstances life+70 is untenable without it. The file might need moving to en.wiki only or you can look into the Russian copyright (entirely feasible).
Gah, this is why I hate Commons sometimes. I originally had the file uploaded locally here but someone transferred it to Commons and added a PD tag. I have reuploaded a local version here and will nom it for deletion at commons - Dumelow (talk) 08:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be nice to get a publication date of File:Abdelhafid.jpg to know which licence applied, although, granted, between them they cover the ground.
I swapped for an equivalent I know to have been published in Spain in 1914 - Dumelow (talk) 12:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I had no luck with tracking a location for this one. As you say, it has been tagged for PD in any country it could have been taken in - Dumelow (talk) 12:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Pacha hassan.jpg should have a PD-1923 tag which more accurately reflects the possibility of foreign publication in the text
Done - Dumelow (talk) 12:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't prove it to be PD so I have uploaded a painting which is certainly PD - Dumelow (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The couple of odd poor resolution photographs of Morocco are nagging at me a little. They look like they've been scanned or something. Would definitely require further thought at FAC if you take the article there. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 23:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked the original author and he has several copyright warnings on his talk page. I have swapped out these images for more believable equivalent images - Dumelow (talk) 09:02, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

Thanks for checking and improving the article, your help at PR was great too - Dumelow (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure thing. "He initially co-operated with the Germans, renouncing his former pro-Allied stance in autumn 1914 and moving to Barcelona to meet with officials from Germany, the Ottoman Empire and the Moroccan resistance. However he was working as a double agent and was providing information to the French": I don't follow; are you saying he was a double agent while he was cooperating with Germans, or changed loyalties later? When? - Dank (push to talk) 19:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 04:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks I have rewritten the Abdelhafid section to better clarify what happened - Dumelow (talk) 21:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport
    • No dab links [1] (no action required).
    • A couple of external links report as being dead [2].
      • Fixed the two I found (French embassy and Lazaro) - Dumelow (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Images lack
      Alt Text [3]
      so you might consider adding it (suggestion only - not an ACR requirement).
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals no errors with reference consolidation (no action required).
    • Images review completed above (no action required).
    • The Earwig Tool detects no issues with copyright violation [4] (no action required).
    • Some overlinking -
      WP:REPEATLINK
      .
    • Repetition here: "A split in the Zaian between those who supported submission and those still opposed led to infighting which led to the death of Hammou in a skirmish in Spring 1921." Specifically "...led to infighting which led...", perhaps reword.
    • Can units, strength and casualties be added to the infobox?
      • Added strengths of both sides at their highest points (end of war for French, start for the Zaian). I also added casualty figures for the French (though they do pertain to the end of pacification of the region in 1933 they do, at least, give an idea of scale of casualties) - Dumelow (talk) 13:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Inconsistent presentation of ranks: in places Lieutenant-Colonel and in other Lieutenant Colonel
    • This seems counter-intuitive: "of at least four men and one officer killed and 19 injured...", suggest presenting losses of highest rank first, i.e. "of at least one officer and four men killed and 19 injured..." AFAIK such figures are more commonly presented this way in most serious histories (minor nitpick though).
    • Same here: "The encounter was Henrys' first major engagement with the Zaian and owing to their "extraordinary stubbornness and tenacity" his losses were high, 16 men and one officer killed and a further 75 men and two officers wounded..."
    • And here: "French losses were again significant with ten men and one officer killed and thirty men wounded."
    • "had sent 37 infantry and cavalry battalions and 6 artillery batteries to the Western Front", should be "six artillery batteries" per
      WP:MOSNUM
    • Similar to the above comments re casualties recommend presenting strength with officers first then men: "On 13 November Laverdure decided to disobey these orders and marched to El Herri with almost his entire force, some 1,187 men and 43 officers with supporting artillery and machine guns."
    • "The French troops also lost 4 machine guns...", should be "four machine guns" per
      WP:MOSNUM
    • "at the cost of 3 French dead and five wounded...", shoudl be "at the cost of three French dead and five wounded..."
    • "The Moroccans pressed to within 50m", unit of measure should be spelt in full and have a conversion in parethesis per
      WP:MEASUREMENT
      . Consider using the {{convert}} template.
    • Presentation of casualties as above here again: "At M'Rirt a sizeable Zaian attack was repulsed with 200 casualties but the French suffered the loss of 24 men and one officer killed and 56 wounded." IMO it would work better as "one officer and 24 men killed".
    • "After General Henrys left Morocco", should just be "After Henrys left Morocco...", removing rank after formal introduction at first instance per
      WP:SURNAME
      .
    • Repetition here: "The failure to find a suitable leader led...", perhaps reword?
    • A couple of the titles in the reference list use lower case when they should use title case.
    • Overall this is an impressive and well written article in my opinion. Only a few points above to address / discuss. Anotherclown (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks a lot. I will try to run through the items in your review today, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Looks good, I've added my support now. I made one change because I think a typo may have been introduced by you prev changes. Pls review and revert if I got it wrong. Anotherclown (talk) 09:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for catching that and for your support! - Dumelow (talk) 09:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support a really well-written, well-researched article. It is accessible even for someone not familiar with the region, and certainly helped explain Lyautey's enduring reputation on colonial warfare to me. I've made a few tweaks here and there, but nothing major. Only a few minor outstanding issues that do not affect my vote:

  • It would be helpful for the average reader to explain briefly what a qaid is. I assume it is meant as a provincial governor here?
    • Correct I have tried to add some clarification on this point - Dumelow (talk) 15:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lyautey, who had lost most of his own possessions" I suppose this refers to the Franco-Prussian War? If so, this should be added.
    • It was during the opening stages of the First World War, I have linked to the relevant Battle of Lorraine article for clarification. Lyautey was sadly devastated by the loss of his family home containing almost all of his papers, vast book collection and antiques dating from the Revolution and before (more details can be found in Singer and Langdon p210). It seems the Germans recognised his name and sought out the house for destruction - Dumelow (talk) 15:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again, excellent work! Constantine ✍ 11:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that, I had great fun writing it! I agree with all your edits (I mistakenly reverted your groupes mobile pluralisation but checked my sources and you were correct, my French must be a bit rusty!), except I removed one second linking of Western Front. I will see if I can attend to your two questions shortly. Cheers - Dumelow (talk) 15:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thanks for clarifying the two points above. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 17:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: interesting topic. I only have a few nitpicks, really:

  • I found this sentence quite long: "Lyautey received orders from Army headquarters in Paris on 28 July 1914, the day the First World War began, requesting the dispatch of all available troops to France in anticipation of a German invasion and the withdrawal of his remaining forces to coastal enclaves." Perhaps reorder and split, for instance: "On 28 July 1914, the day the First World War began, Lyautey received orders from Army headquarters in Paris. The orders requested the withdrawal of his remaining forces to coastal enclaves and the dispatch of all available troops to France in anticipation of a German invasion."
I am not sure about this one, I don't think it is overly long myself and I quite like a variety of sentence lengths. perhaps someone else could comment on this? - Dumelow (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, its nothing to oppose over. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " A further 35,000 Moroccan labourers were raised" --> " A further 35,000 Moroccan labourers were recruited"?
Done - Dumelow (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • inconsistent "Moulouya valley" v " Moulouya Valley";
Standardised to "Moulouya valley" - Dumelow (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The money would be transferred" --> "The money was be transferred";
Done - Dumelow (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "French and British intelligence agents operated in co-operation..." --> "French and British intelligence agents co-operated in..."
Done - Dumelow (talk) 21:18, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • inconsistent "Zaian War" v "Zaian war";
Stanardised to "Zaian War" - Dumelow (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • in the Bibliography, are there ISSNs that could be added for the Francia and The Field Artillery Journals?
Added - Dumelow (talk) 20:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • as above, an OCLC for the Lazaro thesis?
Added - Dumelow (talk) 20:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • as above, an ISBN for the Tucker book?
Added - Dumelow (talk) 20:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • as above, a place of publication for the Jones, Slavin and Strachan books? AustralianRupert (talk) 09:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed Slavin. I have left Jones and Strachan - when I was taught academic referencing I was told to leave off locations where it was obvious and would be repetitious such as "Oxford: Oxford University Press". That said I don't know if Wikipedia MoS contradicts me? - Dumelow (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not major but it's a consistency thing, which would most likely be raised at FAC. Additionally, I believe that both those publishers print books in locations other than their main location, i.e Melbourne etc. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, done - Dumelow (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your review, it's much appreciated. I will try to work through the points you have raised and answer/fix them - Dumelow (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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