Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 71

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

The

Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources also states that "a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment" and "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources." It seems that "avoid primary sources" applies not only to medicine, but also to science in general. A scientific paper is usually about the author's own experiment and research and therefore a primary source. (However, a paper in the field of humanities is usually not primary, but secondary, since they mostly analyze other materials, if I understand this correctly.)

There are many policy pages on Wikipedia but Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources is actually the entry point for sourcing ("WP:SOURCE" redirects to there). It's good for it to stay concise while causing as little misunderstanding as possible.

I propose to change the sentence to better summarize the policies. Here are some possible revision proposals:

Proposal 1 (minimal change):

If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history and science. Articles about medical topics follow a stricter sourcing policy,

Proposal 2 (more accurate and straightforward):

If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as the humanities. For medicine and science, however, academic papers describing the authors' own research are considered

WP:SECONDARY sources are preferred across all academic topics (really, all topics). This text seems to imply that that isn't the case for non-medical topics or for the humanities, which is not true. I don't see the need to redundantly explain secondary sourcing right there; we have Wikipedia:Verifiability#Original research already and what it links to. Or, if we did, I would go with neither proposal and instead say something brief about secondary sources without specifying academic subjects, perhaps using material lifted from that heading or other policy pages. Crossroads ^-talk-

03:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with

WP:PRIMARY are only in these sections: Wikipedia and sources that mirror or use it; Newspaper and magazine blogs; Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Not very discoverable.

The top level guidance, What counts as a reliable source, says If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history, medicine, and science. An editor who is not aware of MEDRS would naturally read that to mean that an academic study published in a peer-reviewed journal is a reliable source. There is no mention here of primary sourcing, no link to it, and a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment is not obvious or intuitive. Schazjmd (talk)

14:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly what Schazjmd said.

The sentence "a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment" is not very discoverable.

"If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history, medicine, and science" is just inaccurate, because academic and peer-reviewed publications include those papers describing the authors' own research, and this sentence states that they are the most reliable sources.

Here is a modified proposal, without specifying academic subjects except medicine, which indeed has a stricter policy:

If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in academic topics. However, academic papers describing the authors' own research are considered

systematic reviews are usually the preferred sources. Betty (talk

) 13:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Better. Do we want to mention peer-reviewed books too? "Some areas such as medicine" implies there are other areas aside from medicine, and I'm not sure there are. Also, MEDRS does not entirely forbid primary sources, so "generally" should be added to match MEDRS' lead. Crossroads ^-talk- 23:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Books are mentioned in the next paragraph "Books published by respected publishing houses" on that page and publications already include books.

I don't know if there are other areas aside from medicine so I left some room there. If you are sure there are no other such areas, you can delete that part. Betty (talk) 07:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

"academic papers describing the authors' own research" seems like it would subsume almost scholarly publications. For example, a historian is publishing their own research. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:29, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

"A scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment" -- I don't know how to make that sentence shorter. Or maybe it can't be made any shorter, so we'll have to keep using that sentence. Betty (talk) 03:29, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

It rather seems the issue there is that in science, to be "good science", it has to be testable by being reproduced by other scientists, and if it's "new" that has not been done. In other words, the scientist is saying "under these conditions, I observed this (which is really where the "primary" concern arises), and this is what scientific laws tell us about it" other scientists then have to be able to follow the "new" conditions, and get the same result. So, I don't think it can be shortened. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:44, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I wonder whether we should think about this subject more broadly: academic sources are better that non-academic sources (for relevant subjects), and separately, secondary sources are better than primary sources, and

separately, independent sources are better than non-independent sources, and so forth. WhatamIdoing (talk

) 23:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, maybe the paragraph could be rewritten altogether. My proposal was an attempt to pose minimal change.

Anyway, my main concern is that I cited a peer-reviewed published academic paper believing that I was using a good source, and then my edit was reverted immediately. I don't want such unpleasant things happen to future editors again. That's why I propose a change in this policy page, to make it clearer. Betty (talk) 03:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Peer reviewed paper + secondary sourcing might be best but even that won't necessarily prevent challenges.Selfstudier (talk) 14:57, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but the reason of the challenge won't be "what you wrote is very good but it's primary source so it can't stay here". Betty (talk) 12:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Here is the new proposal based on the discussion above ("primary sources should NOT normally be used" is a direct quote from

WP:MEDRS

):

If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually reliable sources in academic topics. However, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a

systematic reviews are usually the preferred sources. Betty (talk

) 12:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

It's been a week. If there is no objection, I'll edit the page. Betty (talk) 08:54, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Betty, I really appreciate the progress you've been making. For medical content, I'm not sure that peer-reviewed sources are preferred over med school textbooks or professional reference works, neither of which are technically peer-reviewed. If you look at Wikipedia:Biomedical information (which despite appearances and people authoritatively declaring that is the Sole Truth™ [whenever it supports their POV], is largely my unfinished attempt to figure out some of the complexities here), you can see how I've conceptualized it.

Also, as a minor point, the concept of a review article encompasses both of those types of reviews, which might let us slightly shorten the sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:11, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Review article is a good term, thank you. The paragraph is trying to say review articles are perferred over "a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author". The next paragraph on Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources already covers textbooks. If put together, it'll be like this (I took your advice and used "review articles"):

If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually reliable sources in academic topics. However, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a

Medical topics are especially strict on this and primary sources should NOT normally be used. Peer-reviewed published secondary sources such as review articles

are usually the preferred sources.

Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include:

• University-level textbooks
• Books published by respected publishing houses
• Magazines
• Mainstream newspapers

The part starting from "Editors may also use" is taken from the current Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources page. I didn't change a word. Betty (talk) 09:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

• Proposal 1 is good, Proposal 2 is not good. Only a tiny fraction of scholarly research in the humanities and sciences is ever the subject of peer-reviewed review articles. Moreover, it usually takes years for anything to get into textbooks and more importantly "university-level textbooks" are a terrible source as they are usually dumbed down and full of inaccuracies. (I realise you took it from a policy page; that should be fixed.) The only books that rank with peer-reviewed articles are research monographs (which at university would only be used for upper-level graduate courses). To say that a source should be used "with caution" is to say nothing, since every source should be used with caution. Take a look at History of France. In addition to research monographs, there are a large number of original research articles in peer-reviewed academic journals. This is to the great good of the article and I don't think it is a fine idea to write the policy to force editors to use inferior sources. Cheers. Zero^talk 14:28, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

  The current policy page says "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history, medicine, and science". The reality is that such publications are far from the most reliable sources and edits citing "a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author" will be reverted almost immediately in medical topics. What I'm trying to do is point out that such papers are not good enough sources, at least for some topics. If I understand right, you are saying that other sources listed on the policy page are not good sources, either. I don't disagree. You can propose your suggestions regarding them and I'm sure people will be open to discuss them.

  "With caution" is just a euphemism for "don't use such sources unless you are ready for an edit war". Now that you mention it, yeah, I think we can get rid of that part. Betty (talk) 05:18, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

We have special rules for medical topics for motives that don't apply to most other topics (such as not wanting to kill anyone). Trying to describe what is best for medical and non-medical topics at the same time is sure to be unsatisfactory. So I think that there should be a strict division with the non-medical policy carrying a prominent warning like "This part of the policy does not apply to medical topics; for those see LINK." Zero^talk 06:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

You are right, that's why my proposal says "medical topics have a stricter policy" and has a link to the medical policy. Betty (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

We just had a contentious RFC about the original intent behind MEDRS, and it makes me hesitate to advance any summary of the motivations. I think, however, that it would be worth considering the Replication crisis, and thinking about whether a report of a single unreproducible outcome is actually the sort of thing you'd want to "rely on" for a statement that sounds like "It cures cancer", rather than a statement that sounds like "One time, Alice Expert claimed that it killed some immortalized cells she was trying to grow in her lab". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:24, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Proposal 1 is simply incorrect. It says : "... follow a stricter sourcing policy,
  WP:MEDRS
  ", but WP:MEDRS is not a policy, but guidelines. Second, the words "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history and science. Articles about medical topics follow a stricter sourcing policy" imply some more reliable sources exist than "academic and peer-reviewed publications ". That is obviously not true. Academic and peer-reviewed publications are the best sources available to us. No more reliable sources exist. I agree that some academic and peer-reviewed publications may be primary sources, and, in that sense, some secondary sources should be used to avoid possible OR problems. However, those secondary sources are "academic and peer-reviewed publications" too. Proposal 1 is illogical, poorly written and confusing.
• Proposal 2. It is more accurate. However, each research paper has Introduction, Results and Discussion sections. In the introduction, authors discuss the current state of the field and analyze the works of their peers. In that sense, the Introduction section is always a secondary source. The Discussion section include the analysis of the author(s) own results in a context of already published works, so that is a mixture of primary and secondary sources. Only the Results section can be considered a primary source sensu stricto. Taking into account that the same people usually author review articles and research papers, and both type publications are peer-reviewed, it is not clear why all information in research papers is declared less reliable.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  You are making some valid points. The proposals you replied to are the initials ones and have been revised since. Betty (talk) 09:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

  The introduction section contains some secondary content, but it typically contains a selected, biased representation of the current state of the field. Its purpose is not to provide a general overview, but to build a case for why "my" research represents an important contribution to the field. It is therefore not an ideal source ("ideal" is the exact word that MEDRS uses), so we would recommend it primarily when other options don't exist. The main use case for such sections would be writing about rare diseases or unusual situations. (Also, it's unusual to see anyone try to do that. Primary sources in medical articles are generally cherry-picked for showing the One True™ Answer about something, e.g., that saturated fat definitely does/absolutely never will cause heart disease.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems that people are still reacting to the initial proposals, which unfortunately might be a waste of their effort because the proposals have already been revised a lot on the basis of the discussion. So I edited the page to reflect what has been achieved according to the discussion so far. If you have other suggestions or find other problems, you can always try editing or opening another discussion. Cheers. Betty (talk) 09:44, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted

The question is, the current statement is simply not the reality. The current policy page says "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history, medicine, and science". The reality is that I cited such a publication believing that I was using a good source, and then my edit was reverted immediately, not because of anything else, just because it is primary source. Quot: "Sorry, that is a primary source - I am sure there is a secondary source that can be used to illustrate that point." "The mortality benefit from metformin is fascinating (hence its popularity with the life extension crowd) and I am sure an appropriate secondary source can be found." So the text is important enough and very relavant to the article. It was reverted only because a primary source was cited.

Maybe you wiki "gurus" know too well to see why the current statement is misleading. I just want to make what happened to me less likely to happen again wasting the time and effort of new good-will editors and crushing their passion. Wiki is already hard enough for new contributors, what is so wrong to make the policy page a little clearer?

If you think my change was not good enough, "reverting" does not make it any better, because it was changed into something unclear and misleading. Surely the current statement is not the best possible wording, isn't it? Why not write something more accurate to your standards and clearer and less misleading to new editors? Betty (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

"Primary" vs "secondary" has no relation to reliability. A primary source may be super-reliable, but it may be unacceptable per NOR. In your case, the edit made by you seems to be related to medicine. That means the text added by you may be used by a reader as a direct medical advice. You may be quite smart and educated person, but we must assume we all are amateurs, which means we can misinterpret (accidentally) primary sources that we use. If we misinterpret, e.g. history related sources, that can hardly cause any physical harm to anybody. But in your case the situation is different. --Paul Siebert (talk) 03:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You can take your source and see, using google scholar, which articles are citing it. If some other peer-reviewed publication cites it, and comments are positive, you may use the wording from that publication and use it as a source. That will be a super-reliable secondary source in full accordance with the current policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Betty, nobody wants to crush anyone's passion. But

WP:MEDRS

has "reliable sources" in its name, since it is concerned with more than just whether a source is reliable or not. It is handling both WP:V and WP:WEIGHT at the same time. A better title might have been "Ideal sources for biomedical material".

Paul I think you are trying to give guidance here from first-principles and your own understanding, rather than just advising Betty to read our many guideline and policy pages. Just because another source cites a primary research paper doesn't magically turn that other source into a "super-reliable secondary source".

WT:MED and the folk there will help you out. -- Colin°^Talk

15:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If you read a professional reviews (and I am sure you did), you may probably notice that the literature list may be 200-400 items long, so on average 1-5 lines are devoted to one single article. In that sense, I don't see what is a difference between the mention of such an article in a systematic review and in a research article, where its discussion may be even more detailed. By the way, I find the words "systematic review" somewhat odd. What does it mean? What is teh difference between a systematic and other reviews? What other kinds of reviews do you know. Reviews are usually being written by the same authors who write research articles, and the analysis of the works written by other is equally detailed in both type publications (not more than a couple of sentences, usually just a half of it)--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:06, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

A systematic review is as opposed to a narrative review. A narrative review is just the author using whatever articles they like to draw the conclusions they do, using ad-hoc criteria to figure out which papers to include. A systematic review, on the other hand, has defined criteria for how the authors found the studies used to write the publication, with rigid criteria including MeSH search terms, years published, impact factor of the journal, h index of the authors, etc. So given these criteria, you are supposed to see exactly how they systematically drew the conclusions they did from those primary sources. It's a thing in science and medicine. See: [1] [2] [3] [4] — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I authored research papers and reviews, in such topics as Molecular Biology, Chemistry and Biophysics, but I never saw these criteria. It seems they are more related to the topics that are closer to medicine. Therefore, I am afraid many topics that fall under MEDRS may not fall under the rules described by you. Thus, I am 100% sure most bioinflrmatics and general molecular biologists or biochemists are writing just usual reviews (they do not try to bring them in accordance with the above described standards). That means some topics that fall under MEDRS cannot be sourced per MEDRS.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Narrative reviews are still MEDRS-compliant, systematic reviews are just better. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:08, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention that the paper I cited has been cited 290 times according to google scholar. I obviously haven't read all of them but there are positive comments. It's very reliable to (my) common sense.

There are too many policy and guideline pages on Wikipedia but this page Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources is actually the entry point for sourcing ("WP:SOURCE" redirects to there). It's unrealistic to expect a new editor to read all the secret rules buried in the mountain of policy and guideline pages. At least this entry point should mention the common pitfalls. Betty (talk) 04:41, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Betty, I appreciate you got confused but it doesn't follow that the policy is confusing and needs fixing. It isn't a secret or buried. We only have three core policies and the advice to use secondary sources is explained in Wikipedia:No original research. That policy also explains about research papers (primary) and reviews (secondary). It isn't that surprising that the best guidance for sourcing an article on the drug metformin is Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). There are thousands of research studies published in "reliable" peer reviewed journals all the time. If that was the only test we used for what to write, our articles would be chock full of "A study in 2014 found that..." noise. -- Colin°^Talk 12:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, exact WP:MEDRS wording is For biomedical content, the Wikipedia community relies on guidance contained in expert scientific reviews and textbooks, and in official statements published by major medical and scientific bodies. It seems "expert scientific review" is a review authored by an expert, but all authors who publish reviews in peer-reviewed journals are experts.

MEDRS further explains This is because primary biomedical literature is exploratory and often not reliable (any given primary source may be contradicted by another). That means research articles should be avoided because of potential contradictions with other sources. However, if some article was cited 290 times, and there is no obvious criticism, this possibility can be ruled out.

MEDRS continues Any text that relies on primary sources should usually have minimal weight, only describe conclusions made by the source, and describe these findings so clearly that any editor can check the sourcing without the need for specialist knowledge. Clearly, if research articles were strictly prohibited by MEDRS, this sentence would be redundant. It demonstrates that research articles ARE allowed per MEDRS, provided that the above conditions are met. 290 references with no obvious criticism can be seen as a serious proof of weight. The only remaining issue is if the statement this source is suppose support is a purely descriptive. If yes, and if it can be easily demonstrated, then I see no reason why this source cannot be used per MEDRS.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I think the operative question is: "Of those 290 citations, is at least one of them a suitable review that would have stronger MEDRS basis?" — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 01:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

This isn't the talk page of MEDRS, so a detailed examination of that guideline's wording belongs elsewhere. Paul, you are conducting

WP:Original Research of the primary literature. You are selectively quoting guideline text to make an argument that goes against text elsewhere in that guideline and goes against our core policies. While guideline and policy does allow very very limited use of primary literature, that isn't permission to use it any time one wants. What started this was citing a really old (2014) research paper. A very simple question: if the secondary literature hasn't found that research to be worth commenting on and building on for the last seven years, then why on earth should Wikipedia? -- Colin°^Talk

07:59, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I never said MEDRS permits usage of primary sources in any time and any context you want. That does not follow from my words.

Depending on a topic, 290 references for 7 years may be quite good. In some topics, the article with this number of citations may be very notable. And I am sure some of those references are reviews. I am not going to do analysis of them, because I am not interested in this topic, but all further discussion is possible only based on the analysis of what those references say, and of the context this article is supposed to be used in. It is quite likely that such an article may be a quite good source. You are making so much stress on guidelines letter, and you are forgetting about its spirit.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say you are doing OR on policy, but you are wikilawyering about MEDRS. You are doing OR on that research paper, and personally judging its results to be notable and accepted by the scientific or medical community based on the number of citations. That's OR. The spirit of our guidelines and policy is "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources". Not 6 year old primary research papers, no matter how many citations it has got. There are many secondary sources on this topic, Paul, it is one of the most prescribed drugs in the world and used for one of the most common medical conditions, and I really don't know why you are continuing to argue so strongly to ignore them and insist this ancient primary paper is permitted by policy or guideline. It really really isn't. -- Colin°^Talk 09:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOR

says: do not publish original thought. As soon as I am not writing any text in the article space, I am not engaged in original research.

Furthermore,

should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject". That implies we are supposed to figure out the weight. How can we do that? Clearly, by performing analysis of the body of reliable, published material on the subject. That means not only we can, we are expected, per NPOV, to do such an analysis.--Paul Siebert (talk

) 00:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

It was partially inspired by this. I noticed that some discussion about policy change do not lead to any outcome, but the opinia on the meaning of some policy clause may be very instrumental and useful. What is we create a link to some talk page discussion and add them to the policy? A possible mechanism can be as follows: if some user believes the discussion deserves to be presevted, they can initiate an RfC, and if the community verdict is "Yes" the permanent link to this discussion will be added to the policy (similar to the links to some essays). In particular, the discussion about the meaning of the word "Mainstream newspapers", which took place few years ago, was very useful.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

This would occasionally be convenient for me, but I think it would tend to elevate past decisions and enshrine them as the One True™ Interpretation. I think the less convenient (for me) option might be better for Wikipedia in the long run. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with @WhatamIdoing here. Such an approach is appropriate for consensus templates imo, such as Wikipedia:WikiProject COVID-19/Consensus. Because they are meant to be much more fluid, but still less fluid than talk pages. However, as a policy, these pages are meant to be some of the most cut in stone around. I think citing past talk pages removes some of that firmness of the policy, and elevates the talk page discussion, in an inappropriate way. The policy is based on much more than a single discussion, given that it has stood the test of time and use, which are not easy to link. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing&Shibbolethink, I meant something else. The very fact that some clauses in the policy were a subject of long debates, the breadth of the spectrum of opinia expressed, and the very fact that no consensus was achieved is an important information. It is a kind of a red flag: "Look, this part of the policy seems unclear to many people, and each of them interprets it differently!". That may help future improvement of the policy and avoiding repetition of the same arguments.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I think in more cases, the past discussions would tend to shut down future discussions. The ability of editors to see what they want to see in past discussions shouldn't be underestimated. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the right venue, but the discussion above re WP:V and NPOV (and NOR) has me thinking… if I had to choose one criticism of WP that has never been properly addressed in my many years of editing, it would be that too many editors do not properly RESEARCH before they write. All too often, we decide that an article could be improved by adding some bit of material, and THEN go out and find a (reliable) source to support it.

I have always thought that this is backwards. We SHOULD read the corpus of sources first, and THEN summarize them (citing the best sources to support our summarization). Is there any way we can discourage our “write first, source second” culture, and encourage a “research first, summarize second” mentality? Do we have any essays on this? Blueboar (talk) 16:54, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I believe it was called "source-based research", and I believe that it used to be part of NOR. Jc3s5h, do you happen to remember what I'm thinking of? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:19, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

In the area where I am active (history of Eastern Europe), many users have some strong opinion, and some of they seem to selectively pick sources that support it. Interestingly, in responce to my attempts to bring more neutrality, for example, by presenting results of neutral google.scholar search to show the actual balance of points of views, they frequently argue: "We are not supposed to do original research, we just have to describe what sources say". I have a feeling those users resist to analysis of sources, because that may undermine the viewpoint they are advocating.

In connection to that, I myself am contemplating to write an essay about possible ways to evaluate the current knowledge of some concrete field. My idea is as follows: "Imagine you are a naive Wikipedian with no preliminary knowledge of some topic. What should be the best way to obtain an unbiased impression about the current (majority) views of that subject by scholarly community?" I have some ideas on how to do that (actually, that is the approach I myself am using when I edit Wikipedia). If you want, we can try to write that essay together.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't remember where it was mentioned in guidelines or discussions, but "source-based research" was used in contrast to "original research". It was mentioned in discussions where some commenters were implying that all we could do was paraphrase passages from sources, and writing cohesive passages based on the consensus of the available sources was somehow not allowed. What isn't allowed is synthesis that lead to a position that is not contained in the sources; synthesis that produces smooth-reading material that reflects the positions of the underlying sources is a good thing. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:23, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I know for topics around current events,

WP:10YT

should be guidance to not try to document ongoing events to excutiating detail - particularly with respect to analysis and opinions - until well after the event has settled and then retrospectives written far after the event can be used that are going to be better secondary sources to start from on how events were perceived and opined about. A very large chunk of issues at the noticeboards and ANI and ARBCOM are related to editors that think they know how a situation can be written about as the situation is happening particularly with respect to opinions of that situation, and that created a self-referencing bias that we shouldn't be introducing that early into most of these articles.

This doesn't apply in the same way to most other topics, but there is often cases of WP editors claiming expertise on a topic (which they may be), writing to what their knowledge is, then coming back to add sources. On non-controversial topics this is usually not a problem, but any topic that is a bit controversial, that's a potential bias waiting to be blown out of whack by a sourcing feedback loop. --Masem (t) 00:19, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

While I think our long-term contributors like the folks at

WP:MILHIST read the literature and then write, as you suggest. Most of who we see editing Wikipedia are cranks, dilettantes, fans, and POV pushers. None of those folks are here to write an encyclopedia; they simply want to use the platform for self-aggrandizement. We, of course, will do nothing about this because if we chased all of them off we wouldn't have hardly any editors left. Do like I did and just quit editing articles; it's a pointless exercise under current management. Chris Troutman (talk

) 00:49, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

If questionable sources are allowed only as sources for material on themselves, they are definitely are not allowed as a source on something else, including "contentious claims about others". I think the second sentence makes the first one weaker. It should be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

• People sometime need a point driven home in multiple ways. Yes, it is repetition, but I think it is repetition that helps. Blueboar (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

that repetition is misleading. If you say "You shalt not kill. Killing of postmen is especially prohibited" implies that prohibition of murder of other people is less absolute. Thus, one may conclude that questionable sources are acceptable for non-contentious claims, which is not the case.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:28, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Disagree with your interpretation. I think it aids in understanding the scope of their use. We could reword it to perhaps: "They are not suitable sources for claims about others, especially contentious ones" But I do not find this particularly necessary. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I see no examples of this being an issue. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The only logical rewording that does not undermine the previous sentence could be "They are not acceptable sources for other claims".

The most important part in that text is that questionable sources are acceptable only for information about themselves. Any attempt to emphasise some specific cases where they are unacceptable undermines the absoluteness of the main claim. --Paul Siebert (talk) 01:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Let me explain why both sentences are needed: let’s say I am writing an article on Questionable.com (a notable ultra right wing website)… If I were to write: “Questionable has repeatedly called President Biden a poopyhead” (and cite it to Questionable’s website) that is technically a statement about Questionable (allowed by the first sentence)… HOWEVER it is also a contentious claim about Biden (not allowed under the second sentence). In other words, the second sentence places a limit on what is allowable under the first sentence. Blueboar (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps your example would be a bit better if Questionable made a clear factual claim, such as Biden being born in Kenya. If Questionable said something "subjective" then arguably it becomes a question of whether Questionable's insults are notable, which comes under a different policy? (I am seeing "poopyhead" as a vague insult, not a specific claim that Biden for example suffers from poopyhead syndrome.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Blueboar, I am not satisfied with your explanation. I could agree with it if the second sentence said something like "However, even when they are used in that way, they are not acceptable as a support for information containing contentious claims about others." THAT wording would be in a full agreement with your example.

I would say the second sentence makes the first one less categorical. Using your example, the second sentence implies that, whereas we cannot use Questionable.com for a claim that Biden is a poopyhead, we are not strictly prohibited for using that source for the claim that Biden met Putin (which is not controversial). --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Except the statement “Biden met Putin” would be barred by the first sentence (as it is not about Questionable.com). NOW, if we were to write: “Questionable claimed that Biden met Putin”, THAT might be allowed (assuming the claim itself is not controversial) as it reliably verifies the fact that Questionable made that claim. Blueboar (talk) 17:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but the first sentence is barring any claim about others, not only contentious ones. What additional information the second sentence conveys?

--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

We're trying to leave some room for editors to use their judgment. I suspect, but haven't checked, that a trip through the history would find that the earlier versions contained some temporizing word (such as "normally") in the first sentence.

Sometimes it's hard to write a reasonably complete encyclopedia article without using such sources. Imagine writing Social media use by Donald Trump without ever citing a self-published or otherwise questionable source that referred to a third party. Also, we do make a distinction between "He said that" and "That is true". A source can be reliable, and even authoritative for the first, while being completely unreliable and inappropriate for the second. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

This post is inspired by this discussion. Many users argue that some source is not a RS because it is fringe and/or primary.

IMO, the main function of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV are different, and they are as follows:

• WP:V requires that when readers read something in Wikipedia, they must be provided with an opportunity to independently verify each statement by looking at the source. That means a reader must be capable (at least theoretically) to find that source and to make sure what the source says in reality. That requires that the information must be reliably published, which means a publisher must be respectable, reputable, and the source must be stable. "Mainstream vs fringe" has no relation to that, for even a fringe views may be a RS if they were reliably published.
• WP:NPOV requires that only mainstream or significant minority views can be represented on Wikipedia pages. That means that even if a source is 100% reliable, it can and must be rejected if it is fringe. In other words, all considerations such as author's credibility, number of citations, criticism and acceptance by peers - all of that relates to NPOV, not to V.
• WP:NOR requires that primary sources must be used with cautions. That means a primary source may be 100% reliable, but it cannot be used in some context for NOR reasons. Again, that issue is irrelevant to WP:V. added to address Shibbolethink's argument

However, many participants of that discussion, which was aimed to establish if some source meets formal WP:V criteria, claim that that source is unreliable, because it is fringe. In my opinion, that happened because the core ideas of WP:V and WP:NPOV are not clearly separated in the policy text, and too much attention is given to the issues that in reality relate to WP:NPOV rather to WP:V.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You have just mischaracterized the position of many users. They do not think the source in question is unreliable because it is fringe. Many in that discussion consider it unreliable because the authors have no relevant expertise, are describing their

WP:V-compliant way, which is a separate issue. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 17:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I always understood RSN as a noticeboard where users ask question about compliance of sources with WP:V, so "verifiability" should not be understood in a colloquial meaning of that word. The shortcut is

WP:V/N--Paul Siebert (talk

) 18:06, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

or

WP:V, reducing the ability of the project to form consensus on these issues. Why would we want that? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 18:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, WP:PRIMARY is a realm of the third core policy, WP:NOR. Yes, a good notion. Will add it to my original post.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I think an important aspect of this talk post is that you have not suggested any change to the policy. What would you change here to prevent the inaccurate interpretations you perceive in other users? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If we will come to an agreement that the policy needs in some clarification (imo, part of its content should be moved to NOR/NPOV), then I am ready to discuss it. Thus, it should be properly explained that WP:V focuses on formal criteria, such as a publisher, affiliation, peer-reviewing etc. Everything that relates to acceptance of some publication by peers, criticism, support, number of citations, quality of citations - all of that is an NPOV realm. Similarly, WP:PSTS has no relation to reliability: there are totally unreliable secondary sources and super-reliable primary or tertiary ones. Some formally peer-reviewed journals are less reliable than good blogs - but that, again, the due weight issues, formally, the former is a RS, whereas the latter is not.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:04, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Firm disagree that criteria based on author, perception of the field, citations, etc should be removed from this page. If we do that, we open the door to lots and lots of pseudoscience and fringe science being perceived as legitimate and in compliant with

WP:V. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 18:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I think where PRIMARY comes into play in this situation is

WP:REDFLAG. We know from NOR that PRIMARY sources are typically less reliable than secondary. And indeed the V policy states outright that independent sources are more important. So when we have an exceptional claim, such as those made in this paper, then a PRIMARY source may be more likely to fail verification as an inadequate source. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 18:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a major conflict here. We have a peer-reviewed paper in a major MEDRS journal but one that presents a view that is very contrary to a number of other established theories. The paper meets V, but inclusion of it would appear to fail to meet NPOV, specifically UNDUE - its a minority viewpoint compared to the bulk of prevailing theories. We don't even need to bring up the question of the authority of the paper's authors (outside that they are not leading experts in the field which would factor into UNDUE).

I would point out that is the situation at this time. Maybe in time this paper will be proven right, just as Copernicus was in time. But WP definitely should avoid including theories that yet to have that larger acceptance in the broad scientific/medical community per MEDRS, even if the source is an RS/meets V. --Masem (t) 18:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Gotta be honest with you, calling BioEssays a major MEDRS journal is a very flawed characterization. I have rarely, if ever, seen a BioEssays paper that truly meets MEDRS. I cannot think of a single one. They are quite often very speculative and therefore nowhere near the stability or "confirmed"-ness required by

WP:RSOPINION, perhaps summing up or describing some recent shift in the field... But MEDRS is a much higher bar, as it should be imo. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 18:36, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree its not Nature or the like, but we can even take that out of the equation here and just simply point to UNDUE being the reason to exclude the source for now per "one paper vs prevailing medical-based theory". As soon as you start begging the question of the journal quality, the authors' expertise, or the primary-nature of the work, you complicate the question that makes the OP question about these policies' overlap confusing. You can easily simplify the question that you have one source that is very much counter to everything else out there, that unless it was from the most expert source in the world, then its just UNDUE, period. --Masem (t) 18:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I guess my concern is that this approach opens the door to other papers from this author, this journal, etc. I don't think it would be appropriate to use a similar paper from this publication that is anti-lab leak either. Not if it is as heavily

WP:RS, and did not touch DUE.

To me, this talk page section seems like a grievance looking for a home. rather than pointing out an actual inconsistency in this policy. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 18:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If I see what you are getting at: there is nothing that would immediately disqualify said paper from being a RS per WP:V (given its peer review from a non-predator journal) but under MEDRS, it can be taken as a lower quality source to be using for any medical related claim due to the low weight of the journal and that as you say, that journal is generally meant as "essays" rather than research results and thus prone to more open hypothesis rather than scientific method and results. Perhaps the closest we have is as you say, this specific journal is basically RSOPINION (in context of MEDRS), similar to any newspaper's op-ed page. I just don't think one needs to complicate the reason not to use this article without getting so far into the weeds of the complexity of V/NPOV/NOR policies. --Masem (t) 19:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

MEDRS is built upon several policies. Thus, when it refers to PRIMARY, it is WP:PSTS (i.e. NOR). However, do I understand it correct that the RSN discussions should be focused NOT on whether this particular source is good for this particular article, but on whether this particular source is acceptable per WP:V? In that sense, the conclusion "Yes. It is reliable" means it meets WP:V criteria, not that it can be used for this particular purpose.

However, if I am right, then most people don't understand the policy, which means it should be made more clear.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:40, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The introductory words on RSN demonstrate that the purpose of that board is for evaluating sources in context, in fact they ask that posters include links to the specific article and the specific text to be verified, so that

WP:RS may be applied to the question. It says this is because questions of reliability are context-dependent. Many sources are reliable for statement "X," but unreliable for statement "Y". — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 20:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

In other words, that RSN discussion is so long and hot because different people answer different questions. Some of them, like me, answer the question: "Does this source meet WP:V?", whereas others, like Shibbolethink, answer the question "Can this source be used in this concrete article and in that concrete context?", which is a much broader question. To demonstrate my point, had the same question about this source been posted on WP:NPON, my responce would be "this reliable source represents either fringe or insignificant minority view, so it should not be used in this article".--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:44, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You may be right about our two questions, but your question is not the only purpose of that noticeboard. From the very first words on that board: Welcome to the reliable sources noticeboard. This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular

sources are reliable in context. (emphasis mine) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 19:56, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. It seems different users understand it differently, and, taking into account that many of them express the same view as I, we need to provide some explanation (maybe, by modifying the introductory words). My (and not only my) understanding is that RSN is linted to V in the same way as NPOVN is linked to NPOV and NORN linked to NOR.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense for RSN to be linked to RS? That is how the discussion seems to be going, anyway, as there are many editors (myself included) who analyse the source as a function of the criteria listed at

WP:CONTEXTMATTERS). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs

) 20:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, it is linked to RS, but RS is just guidelines, which is not binding.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:40, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Most of the same criteria are listed at WP:V anyway, so this seems like a lawyerish and unimportant distinction in this context. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:43, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If that were the case, we would never had such a long RSN descussion. WP:V is more formal, and it does not include PSTS or FRINGE. Since PSTS/FRINGE arguments were brought during that discussion, that means different people understand reliability criteria totally differently---Paul Siebert (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Many users have gotten mired in disagreements much smaller and more nonsensical than this, so I do not find this argument very convincing. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

But if we can easily avoid that by clarifying the rules, why cannot we do that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying we should disregard the guidelines without any actual reason to do so? I believe the default in most cases is that the guidelines should be how we conduct ourselves, and only default to the policy when the policy and guidelines disagree. If you think the guidelines are not meaningful or actionable, that is very troubling indeed, and does not appear to be a view shared by most

WP:RSN users, from reading the current discussions on that page. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 20:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I am saying that when you ask people a question, you must do that clearly. I (as well as many other users) think that each RSN question is about compliance with WP:V (and not to NOR/NPOV). And answer the question accordingly. My answer was "yes, it complies with formal WP:V criteria" (and I meant it was obvious from my answer that subsequent analysis may show that source fails WP:NPOV/NOR; however, I didn't write that explicitly, because I believe that is offtopic on this concrete page). Note, several other users responded in the same vein, which means they share my vision of functions of that page.

You may also notice that there were no claims that that source is mainstream or not primary. The objections were just about its rejections from WP:V point of view. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

The objections (mine included) are about much more than it's lack of suitability per NPOV. There's quite a lot of discussion of the factors which determine the reliability of a source (which are identical on both V and RS); namely the source itself, it's authors, and the publisher. Hard to see how you would miss that. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

And that is a big problem, because if we apply the same approach to Wikipedia in general, lion's share of its content must be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Why? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Because majority of WP articles are based on such sources as local newspapers, web sites, magazines, which, according to your (and mine) standard are total garbage. We cannot pohibit those sources, because most article will become unsourced. Meanwhile, if we get rid of those articles, Wikipedia will not be Wikipedia anymore.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

My standards are applied to scholarly sources, I treat news sources differently because they have different properties. Speak for yourself. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 03:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Your "speak for yourself" is somewhat impolite. Actually, my standards are the same. The problem is that in the topics that I usually edit other users use quite different standards, and, they are in accordance with our policy too.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:59, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

My apologies. I didn't mean to offend. By way of explanation: I get very ornery when someone claims to know how I feel about something, especially when I don't feel that way! I think you are pointing out an overall issue with wikipedia in that it does not value expertise. But I don't see your suggestions as solving that problem, and I think they may create new ones... For instance, I see that allowing users to challenge the author of a source as unreliable creates problems for you in other areas. But removing that criteria from V creates many additional problems in the areas of pseudoscience and alternative medicine. Because many crackpots get published in high quality venues, and it is not immediately obvious that the claims are UNDUE. DUE/UNDUE takes a lot more time and effort to establish than simply pointing out the flawed credentials of the author. That's why I appreciate such a criteria included here. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not propose to remove anything from WP:V. I propose to clearly split it on two parts, let's conditionally call then WP:V-a and WP:V-b. The first part is about verifiability proper (as I describe it below), and it determines if this concrete statement is verifiable (can be checked by going by the reference, which is reliably published and stable). The second part WP:V-b is about trustworthiness, and different criteria are applied here. Currently, these two components are mixed, so some users make a stress on the first part (and pretend everything is fine with the source), whereas others emphasize the second part. If these two aspects will be clearly separated, and it will be stipulated that they both must be met, pushing questionable sources will become much more problematic.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:52, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@

WP:PSTS section. (There was some talk then, and several times since then, about splitting PSTS to its own policy page.) The reason I bring this up is: I don't think that there's a really sharp dividing line between WP:V and WP:NOR (or at least the non-PSTS parts of NOR). I do agree with you about NPOV being a separate consideration. WhatamIdoing (talk

) 20:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If you want my opinion about Wikipedia:Attribution, I see it somewhat differently. I would clearly separate Verifiability from Reliability, because they are totally different things.

Verifiability means just one thing: everything that is written in Wikipedia can be verified when a reader go by a reference. If something was published, printed and stored in some reliable place (or on some reliable server), and this information is (at least theoretically) available to a reader, that source is reliable. In that case, "reliable" means we can rely on it for verification purposes. If some Nobel prize winner gave a speech, but that speech has never been properly recorded, that source is not reliable. If a Flat Earth theorist published some article in NYT, that source is reliable (for verification purposes only). In connection to that, one Verifiability aspect, which is totally overlooked, is as follows: "Does this particular source have a significant risk to produce a dead link? In reality, a lot of ostensibly "sourced" information in Wikipedia are references that lead to page 404: there was some information by the moment the article had been written, but it disappeared since then. IMO, our goal is to estimate a probability of such risks. Thus, many references that lead to questionable web archives should be considered unreliable. In other words, stability is an important aspect of verifiability, which seems to be totally ignored in the policy.

The reason why I think Verifability and Reliability must be separated are quite simple: the former can be checked by simple and formal criteria, thereby eliminating a possibility of conflicts and edit wars.

Reliability is a totally different story. Actually, we should call it "trustworthiness" or "correctness". It relates to reliability of information that is published in some concrete source (of course, we limit ourselves with reliably published sources only). In contrast to verifiability, a decision about reliability of some information is much harder to make, and, frankly, that is something we must avoid (because we all must be considered amateurs with no expertise). Instead, we should use mainsreamness criteria: if the source does not contradict to what other sources say on that account, or (which even better) that source is explicitly supported by others (for example, it has positive reviews etc), than it, most likely, reflects majority or significant minority viewpoint. In other words, "reliable" is closely linked to "mainstream/majority". In contrast to the analysis of author's credential or the context (which may require some expertise), evaluation of mainstreamness is more straitforward.

That is why I think the two aspects of WP:V should be clearly separated, and the second one (reliability/trustworthiness) should be closer linked to NPOV.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

That would allow for wikilawyering of the "but it's listed in [garbage source]". If a source isn't reliable, then no, it cannot be used to satisfy verifiability; otherwise we'd be linking to bullshit predatory journals and fansites and the like. You claim on your user page to have published peer-reviewed papers: now, I don't know what discipline it is in, but I assume that no matter where, serious scholarly publications require serious sources; and that you have enough self-awareness to acknowledge that this is more complicated than what you are depicting above. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:25, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

To take an extreme example, if we were to publish a quote from the Daily Mail - despite being a deprecated and generally unreliable source - we can still show it is possible to verify it through a proper citation to the publication date/page or URL. That meets WP:V, but as we all know, it is very unlikely this is reliable information. To me, that falls under the context of where WP:V and WP:NOR overlap - we want to include information from sources that we know are verified (so no through-the-grapevine or personal calls with experts or email chains) but that show that no original research is needed to extract the necessary information, meaning that we are looking to the reliability of those sources to make sure they are telling us what is that information. And while there are necessary ground rules (that we prefer third-party sources, and generally favor secondary sources over primary), this is also where there are a lot of field-specific aspects to consider. As soon as you step into the world of science and peer-review, then we know there's a range of quality of journal publications that come into play, something that doesn't affect more common mainstream topics like politics, sports, or entertainment. Its just that I don't think we can we write absolute reliability rules beyond the minimum set out in WP:V, and instead leave this to the individual fields. (This would parallel with how notability has a general base rule but also field-specific considerations) I can see where there is the idea of reliability can come from, but in considering that V/NOR/NPOV and NOT form the core content policies, reliability is a sourcing aspect. --Masem (t) 00:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any problem here. Instead of the current single step (mixed) check procedure, we will have a two step procedure: (i) "Is that information verifiable?" "Yes, it was published in Daily Mail, and everybody can check the newspaper archives by themselves", (ii) "Is this source reliable" "No, according to other, reliable sources, information published in Daily Mail is generally non-reliable".

The advantage of that approach is obvious. Since the current approach is an implicit combination of these two components, some users make more stress on the first or second aspect (depending on what supports their POV better). However, if the two aspects are separated, and we explicitly say BOTH of them must be met, the WP:V related disputes will be more formal and structured, and there will be less freedom of maneuver for POV pushing. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we formalize the criteria in WP:RS as a bigger part of WP:V? If so, I would agree with that approach. But I am not sure you will find consensus, because I do not see all that many instances where POV charlatans really care about the PAGs anyway. They usually haven't read any of these pages, and don't care much about the structure of policy vs guideline... — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

If we assume that any good proposal will be filibustered by POV pushers, then editing Wikipedia is senseless. But we are still here, aren't we?--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:53, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@Paul Siebert, I think your view of WP:V aligns with my view of NOR: it's proof that someone else said it (i.e., it wasn't just made up by a Wikipedia editor), regardless of whether the source is suitable for the statement in question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

V v NPOV

I think the linked discussion occurred on the wrong noticeboard and conflated "is reliable" for "I can use it (in some unspecified way)". Or at least it was perceived as some that way. Perhaps the Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard would have been more appropriate. Paul, you may be right that you were want to answer general question whereas others were answering a specific question but really, everyone discussing Covid conspiracies knows that "give and inch and you'll take a mile". Most of the above (and earlier) discussions seems to be two editors talking past each other. Covid never really brings out the best kind of policy discussions and I think this one isn't going anywhere useful. -- Colin°^Talk 13:08, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

"give an inch and you tale a mile" is an argument that is not relevant to policy or guidelines. Although I myself find the hypothesis about artificial origin of SARS-CoV2 totally fringe, I may argue that it might be useful to mention such articles (in a context of their debunking), because general public still believes in the lab leakage hypothesis, and if Wikipedia will ignore such articles (instead of their explicit refutation), that may reinforce laymen's belief that Wikipedia is dominated by leftists/Communist/CIA/FSB , or similar consporacy bullshit. However, it is possible that I am missing something. I amm not editing that topic (SARS-CoV2 is my job in RL, so I believe I have a right to relax here, and to do something that is not related to it, like history).--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:57, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Paul you know the old joke: "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." Most sourcing discussions are contaminated by the agenda and worldviews of the participants, and Covid is the outlier that breaks everything. Many participants are playing the game "If I can get consensus that policy/guideline says X or that policy/guideline does not apply/does apply, then I can write Y or I can remove Y". It mostly isn't about trying to improve policy or guidelines for the benefit of all articles, but about being able to win whatever argument they are involved in. IMO anything covid related should be banned from influencing guideline and policy because the particpants really are not concerned with anything other than their immediate agenda. I think your approach of avoiding a subject related to real life is a good one. -- Colin°^Talk 22:17, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

But I will say, in general, I think it's a good thing that we treat policies and guidelines with very special care re: changes, even outside of these contentious areas. Most people come to this talk page wanting to change something that was an annoyance in another discussion, and it's difficult to see the full and total implications of that change unless it is examined in hindsight... I really do believe "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here more than almost anywhere on wiki. Because the changes have lots of repercussions... Hence why we need an awfully large consensus to make changes, and why it's really okay with me that the massive BMI RfC failed. It probably should have failed to pass. Because, in hindsight, we were making unnecessary changes to fix current problems. We were trying to make an Asshole John rule. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:17, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see what current problems this thread is supposed to address. My proposal was a result of my observations that I made during several years, and the recent discussion just pulled a trigger.

I think it is important to make things as formal as possible for a very simple reason. Although it is not recommended, closure of long discussions is performed by de facto vote count. Now imagine a situation when 70% of responces were: "Reliable, because it was published in a peer-reviewed journal and well referenced". I perfectly understand that that is just a part of truth, but, according to our policy that is a correct conclusion. And it would be not a surprise if the outcome will be interpreted as "RS". However, if we explicitly stipulate that the question is actually TWO combined questions ("Is it reliable?" "Is it trustworthy?") the answer is supposed to have a format: "Yes, RS. No, not trustworthy", which significantly facilitates formal closure.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Paul, you keep using this word "Reliable" as though it is something that fully and easily describes a whole thing, like a car being red. Always ask yourself "reliable for what?" A small study looks at a cancer drug and found a few patients get better for a while. That sort of thing gets published in a "peer-reviewed journal" and I'm sure the paper is full of "references". But it isn't "reliable" for a statement that "drug X treats cancer" or "drug X is a promising new cancer therapy". And even the marginally better "A study found drug X helps cancer patients" is misleading the reader by missing out important details like how small the study was, how the patients were selected, which got better and for how long, etc, etc. This is why we use secondary sources. A primary research paper in a good journal is "reliable" for describing what the research did and the very specific and limited results it got. Wikipedia articles aren't just a list of research studies. An encyclopaedia might sometimes mention some groundbreaking or notable research, but mostly we are wanting to describe the consensus and knowledge these studies led to. And judging whether that research established a new consensus or confirmed or rejected existing knowledge that we might want to write about in an encyclopaedia .... that's not a job for Wikipedians. So if your "reliable" is "Is being published in a peer reviewed journal enough to make a study reliable for us making health claims about a treatment?" Very very much no. -- Colin°^Talk 07:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment

  I just wanted to comment on a couple of things that was stated: "Actually, it is linked to RS, but RS is just guidelines, which is not binding.", Any guideline, or even an essay, can be relevant or "binding" (certainly if there are enough editors that support it) if it is not contested as going against or undermining a policy, Many times things are not contested and enjoy

  consensus by silence

  which can change if contested. Maintenence is always far behind article creation.

  I don't see a "versus" as this section is titled. NPOV is often subjective because it includes "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible (my emphasis), without editorial bias". The NPOV aspect is not a particular concern of the reliability of a source but is assuming the source is considered reliable. Is a source reliable in the context wherein it is being used? Wikipedia core content policies are to work in harmony with NPOV concerns as the more important. This is probably why WP:NPOV states: Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three. This will add a stumbling block to many "POV pushers".

  Many news media outlets may not be actually

  undue weight. This is where consensus becomes important. ​I was not in the discussions but wonder if it was a good idea to depracate the controversy section? Otr500 (talk

  ) 21:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Now my proposal is to add the following sentence: (after the current statement "If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in topics such as history, medicine, and science.")

Note that a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment, and primary sources should NOT normally be used as a basis for biomedical content.

The two parts of the sentence are both direct quote from existing policy or guideline pages. I only added the linking words "note that" and "and". If you find them problematic, you need to change the policy or guideline pages first.

Why is it needed here if other policy or guideline pages already contain it?

Because this page Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources is the entry point for sourcing ("WP:SOURCE" redirects to there). It's unrealistic to expect a new editor to read all the secret rules buried in the mountain of policy and guideline pages. This entry point should be a consice summary on the policy of sourcing.

Cons:

This policy page is one sentence longer.

Pros:

Makes thing a little clearer. Betty (talk) 06:01, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this revert by

WP:PSTS. There are reasons beyond verifiability why WP prefers secondary sources". In the past when changes like this are added to a policy, although they may initially be in harmony with other policy sections that cover a similar point, over time there is a tendency for them to diverge and this give Wiki-lawyers wriggle room. -- PBS (talk

) 15:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I think what the above discussion shows is that most users here do not believe any clarification is necessary, and could lead to further problems. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

What?

WP:V. Unreliable sources do not comply with WP:V, that's flat out stated in the first sentence of this policy. If people are discussing WP:SOURCE, it is a discussion directly about WP:V. -- Alanscottwalker (talk

) 01:42, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

sources are reliable

in context.

That means I made a typo: instead of WP:RS I typed WP:SOURCES. However, that does not affect my major point: unlike other two noticeboards, WP:RSN is linked not to the policy (WP:V), but to guidelines, and WP:V doesn't have its own noticeboard.

Clearly, if the header were Welcome to the reliable sources noticeboard. This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular

sources are reliable in context, I would never start this discussion.--Paul Siebert (talk

) 02:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:V is about relaible sources. What do you want to discuss, if not reliable sources since that's what WP:V is about? Perhaps analogies help; V is the bricks, NOR is the mortar, and NPOV is the superstructure, or V is the paper fibers, NOR is the paper glue, and NPOV is the binding ready sheet. I'm not sure why it matters that RS is linked since RS' purpose to to elaborate V -- no one is going to prevent you from addressing V there, since RS incorporates and actuates V. And the inseperable issue for V is publishing process and context. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we should make such a big a deal over the difference between

WP:WEIGHT side of "Why are you pushing something the secondary literature ignores / rejects?" -- Colin°^Talk

19:38, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I still disagree. The "Additional notes" section of

WP:RSN

header clearly says that the page is linked to WP:V, and it specifies that NOR/NPOV aspects should be discussed at different noticeboards. Meanwhile, as the recent discussion demonstrated, many people claim that some source is not reliable because it is fringe, which literally means the source fails WP:V criteria because it is fails WP:NPOV. That leads to long and senseless disputes. In my opinion, a solution would be to link the RSN page directly to WP:V, and clearly explain that the page's function is to find the answer to the following questions:

1. Does the source of interest meet WP:V criteria sensu stricto?

2. Does it comply with

WP:RS

recommendations?

Actually, a positive answer to the first question does not mean a blanket approval of the source. For example, during a recent discussion, I answered "Yes", but I made a reservation that other two policies need to be consulted. That means, the discussion should move to, e.g. WP:NPOVN, and the question that has to be asked is: "Can this reputably published source be used in a context of a lab leakage hypothesis per NPOV?", and the most probable answer would be "No". Similarly, the question if that source can be considered primary or secondary (in that concrete context) could be asked at NORN.

The advantages of this approach are obvious: each time, a single and a relatively simple question is asked, which dramatically accelerates achievement of consensus. Thus, had we quickly agreed that BioEssays is a good journal, we could easily leave this question behind, and focused on the main issue: whether this source is fringe. However, as you can see, more and more participants were joining a discussion and bringing the same argument about the quality of the journal, which was really distracting.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

...A lot of people in that discussion do not believe that the editorial board has the expertise necessary to evaluate those papers, and that the authors are not experts in the field. We did not "quickly agree" that BioEssays is a good journal for this type of content. Hence why this is a straw man argument. Many did not agree that the source was "reputably published." Quality of the journal for the topic at hand is a component of

WP:V. And it is not as simple as "good Impact factor = good journal." A really good petroleum engineering journal is not reputable for publishing papers about Climate Change. A really good fundamentalist christian religious studies journal is not reputable for publishing studies about evolution of saurischian fossils. etc etc. "reputable" requires context. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 00:11, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are a scientist, you are expected to understand the core idea of

Born-Oppenheimer approximation

: a complex problem can be solved much easier if it is split on simpler parts. In addition, it is much easier to resolve disputes in Wikipedia if that is done in a formal way, because expertise of participants may be very different. I cannot understand why you are persistently refusing to make your life easier if there is an opportunity to do so.

Your arguments about BioEssays are not convincing, and the whole approach is non-productive. It is not my goal to defend BioEssays or to advocate Sergeto&Deigin, but, if I were a POV pusher, I could easily beat your argument against BioEssays. Your analogy with "christian religious studies journal vs evolution of saurischian fossils" is absolutely flawed. Just take a look at this list of publications about viruses in this journal. BioEssays publishes a lot of articles about viruses, and many of them are well cited. That means, from the totally formal point of view (i.e., according to WP:V), BioEssays IS a quite good and reliable source. If you disagree, just ask a general question at RSN, something like: "Is BioEssays a reliable source for virology related topics?", and the answer will be: "Of course, it is". Now explain me please: why some specific article in this journal, which is RS per our policy, can be considered unreliable per WP:V? There is nothing in that policy that allows us to make such a conclusion, and your arguments are shaky (from a point of view of an admin or another non-expert who will be closing RSN discussions). Again, I do accept your arguments as a scientist, because my expertise allows me to make a correct conclusion. But your approach is flawed, because we must assume most of us may be non-experts, and those users who look at the problem from the point of view of our policy may quickly and easily beat your argument.

Therefore, instead of pushing weak arguments, why cannot we switch to really strong ones? Why cannot we admit "Yes, it is RS per WP:V", and switch to a much stronger argumemt: " Now, let's see if we can use this reliable source per WP:NPOV/NOR". And that immediately disarms S&D's proponents, for there is virtually no evidence of a non-fringe nature of this source.

In other words, instead of endless repetition of "This source is reliable per WP:V because it was reputably published" - "No it is not reliable per WP:V because it is fringe per NPOV" - and so on ad nauseum, I propose a simple and short stepwise procedure:

• Is it reliable per WP:V? If "No", the source is rejected
• If yes, is it acceptable per NPOV? If "No", the source is rejected
• If yes, is it being used correctly per NOR? If "No", the source is rejected
• If yes, does it comply with RS and MEDRS recommendations? If "No", the source may be rejected

This discussion is split on small subtopics, which makes the whole process more organized and leaves much less freedom of maneuver for various POV pushers. Unfortunately. I am rarely editing science related topics, so I don't know how frequently you meet civil POV pushers here. However, in my topics, the probability to meet that type users is significant. That is why I am constantly keeping that possibility in mind. Our policy is good if all users are good faith users. However, it can be easily misused by civil POV pushers, and we need to make their life as hard as possible.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:46, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are a scientist, you are expected to understand the core idea of Born-Oppenheimer approximation: a complex problem can be solved much easier if it is split on simpler parts. As an aside, I have made it through undergraduate training, a PhD, publishing lots of papers and so on, and now a few years of medical school, all without ever hearing about this principle of quantum mechanics. And, likewise, I would not expect a physicist to understand the principle of

WP:V works, or if they would just find another way to argue the rules. I do not think solving POV pushers is a matter of better tailoring policy. It is a matter of better enforcing the policies we already have. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕}

) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps one way of looking at this is that Paul is taking a rigidly reductionist approach to answering the question:

"Can I write this text in this article while citing this source (or these sources)?"

He argues this should be broken down into separate policy discussions on separate notice boards, each looking at possibly simpler questions, and then presumably combined together again to conclude. But we are just here to answer that one big question, and while determining which of any policies and guidelines influenced the outcome can be enlightening, concentrating too much on that is distracting from the problem of building an encyclopaedia. Editors may come to a particularly noticeboard thinking that the answer to their question is best found by examining WP:V or WP:NPOV or WP:MEDRS or whatever, and they may be mostly right or completely wrong. I think it is more important to answer the encyclopeadia-building question and move along, than to get totally bogged down in a mire as happened at the linked discussion. -- Colin°^Talk 14:50, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Shibbolethink, first of all, I during that discussion I came to a conclusion that there is no urgent need in policy change. IMO, it would be more correct to say that the question is in its correct application of the policy. More concretely, we may discuss a possibility to change the RSN page header.

Secondly, I am not saying all problems should be split into simpler components. My point is that, when possible, such splitting significantly simplifies a discussion, so it is just silly not to use such an opportunity.

Re "consider whether Civil POV pushers actually care ...etc" Not only they care, that is their most standard approach". In a discussion where two or more aspects are mixed together, civil POV pushers usually make a stress at those aspects that are most helpful for pushing their POV. Thus, if a question combines V and NPOV issues (e.g. "Can it be used per WP:RS"), they may vote "Yes, the source is acceptable because it is reliable per V" (if that source was reputably published but expresses fringe POV). Alternatively, if publisher's reputation is questionable, they may argue "This source represents a significant minority view". Again, when you ask a composite question, it is more likely that a partial "Yes" may be interpreted as "Yes" during the discussion's closure.

Colin, No. I am not arguing that "this should be broken down into separate policy discussions on separate notice boards, each looking at possibly simpler questions, and then presumably combined together again to conclude". By saying that, you demonstrate you poor understanding of our content policy. A correct logical operation here is AND, not OR: Wikipedia content must comply with each of three content policies, which means we don't need to combine anything. If some source is ok per WP:V, but not ok per WP:NPOV, that means it is NOT acceptable. That is why breaking each question into smaller components is always good (when that is possible). I can give you an extreme example: if some Nobel prize winner publishes some article in Nature, that publication is ALWAYS a reliable source per WP:V. However, that publication may express some totally fringe ideas, which are ignored or directly rejected by the whole scientific community. That means that source is fringe, and cannot be used in Wikipedia per WP:NPOV, independently on the result of the RSN discussion. --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I tend to favor Paul's stepwise approach myself, but I also find that people who want to add something take the first "yes, technically it just barely complies with WP:V" and ignore the "but all content needs to comply with all the core content policies, not just WP:V, so you need to keep thinking" part.

I may occasionally annoy editors by telling them that they're citing the wrong rules (e.g., "per MEDRS" when the problem is really "per NPOV"). For most purposes, the exact reasoning isn't important. But if you are thinking about policy writing (which is hard), the stepwise, micro-question approach may prevent you from trying to put neutrality or notability rules into a sourcing policy, and vice versa. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

PMID 16578429) about the structure of DNA. It says The structure involves three intertwined helical polynucleotide chains. (my bold) This would not be a reliable source for our article to say "DNA has a triple helix structure." Primary research papers are not reliable sources for scientific facts. A huge amount of research turns out to be in some way incorrect. It is a failure at WP:V. So, I disagree that Nobel prize winners in Nature get an automatic pass at WP:V. As MEDRS explains, we achieve greater reliability when people conduct systematic reviews of the research, or where a good publication and knowlegable authors produce a comprehensive literature review. For long established things like the structure of DNA, pretty much any science textbook by a reputable publisher would be a reliable source. -- Colin°^Talk

14:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

You describe a totally artificial situation, because the source you are talking about is outdated, and everybody, including the author himself, agrees it is wrong. However, it does not make it not a RS. Thus, it would be quite legitimate to write "In 1953, Pauling proposed that DNA is a triple helix[1]", and that would be in a full accordance with our policy. Nobody could remove this statement from Wikipedia under a pretext that the source is unreliable. That does not mean, however, that this Pauling's article can be used instead of the Watson&Crick's article published in the same journal immediately after that: the Pauling's article should be used only in a context of early, historical models of DNA structure, but it is a quite reliable source for that purpose. However, a source that is reliable per WP:V may contradict to other reliable sources, it may be outdated, fringe etc. That may significantly limit its usage in Wikipedia, but it doesn't make it unreliable per WP:V. Indeed, had that article been retracted? No. Can a reader go by the reference and verify that Pauling really wrote that? Yes. That means the source is reliable, and your example perfectly demonstrates my point: WP:V and WP:NPOV are two different policies, and they should be clearly separated.

It is fundamentally incorrect to mix WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. To say that "This source is not reliable because it is fringe, or because it is primary" is a total nonsense. Moreover, you are forgetting the main goal of the content policy: to make a decision which source can be used in this particular context, and which is not. That is what we need, and by mixing the three content policies you make a discussion long, confusing, and vulnerable to manipulations by various freaks. Do you really need that?

Let me re-iterate it again:

• WP:V sets a formal and rigid standards for technical quality of a source (is it reliably published, and can the publisher guarantee the technical quality of the text). If these formal criteria are not met, the source cannot be used in Wikipedia in any context. That is the first screen.
• WP:NPOV evaluate a linkage of each concrete source with mainstream views (is the information presented in this source in agreement with the current knowledge of the subject). If the source says something that dramatically contradicts to the currently accepted views, this source cannot be used in that context. That is the second screen.
• WP:NOR checks if Wikipedians can use this concrete source as a support for some concrete statement. If the nature of the source creates a risk that it can be easily misinterpreted or misused by the editors, this source cannot be used. That is the third screen.

This is a crystal clear and perfect scheme, and to pass our quality control check, the source must comply with all three policies. If the screening procedure is clear and simple, that minimizes the amount of conflicts and misunderstanding. Can you please explain me what is a reason for making it more convoluted? What is a need in mixing WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR?

Actually, to say "Ok, this source is RS per WP:V, but we cannot use it in this context per WP:NPOV, and cannot use it for non-descriptive statements per WP:NOR" essentially means "No, this source is unacceptable per our policy". In connection to that, I cannot understand why the same outcome must be achieved using much more convoluted argumentation that you propose ("This source says something that has been refuted by other sources, and it is primary, which means it is not reliable per WP:V". It seems obvious that, although my and your approached lead to the same outcome (rejection of the source), your argumentation is much easier beatable. --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:15, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Paul, when you wrote "In 1953, Pauling proposed that DNA is a triple helix" you had different "material". And WP:V says "Questionable sources should be used only as sources for material on themselves" so citing 1953 Paulings paper about what Pauling proposed requires actually the weakest possible source. This is entirely my point. You keep thinking we can asses sources (plus perhaps authors) without the context of article text. We just can't. -- Colin°^Talk 21:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I have to agree with Paul here, particular applied to the Pauling example. The source 100% meets V/RS as a peer-reviewed journal, but its usability falters at the NPOV test as it would be one novel scientific viewpoint against accepted scientific views. An example of where such a case would fail V would be if that same claim was made in a predatory journal or one that lacked peer-review. --Masem (t) 16:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Not a fan of that mechanistic process, because it elevates "steps" over whole analysis and treats V as if something that has no context, when the way to look at V is within the three core polcies context. It sounds like there are many reasons to denigrate the source under V, and at the same time denigrate it under NPOV. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

But WP:V is written wholly to be contextless with respect to the content of the article, outside of evaluating the reliability specific to the topic itself (eg as a recent RS/N / RS/P discussion, articles from Rolling Stone are find for anything related to entertainment, but are unreliable for anything political). A key part of WP:V is "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" and points to all the various parts of NOR, NPOV and other relevant policies that require us to consider that once a source is determined as reliable, if that content is appropriate to include. Trying to conflate reliability with anything coming from NOR/NPOV or other content policies is what makes these discussions a mess. Mind you , there are some places where WP:V overlaps into the other policies - RSOPINION, BLPSPS, etc. but those are more exceptional places, and it is far easier to consider a source by first simply asking if it reliable under WP:V/RS, and then breaking down appropriateness for inclusion by any other policy that is appropriate. --Masem (t) 18:33, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

No. V is about context. In what manner is it being said (work: things like, is it formal work); who is saying it (author: things like author expertise), in what means are they saying it (publisher: things like, is this a publisher that looks to appropriately publish and provides safeguards to that effect), and what are they talking about (is this bit of info the proper context, for this work/author/publisher's musings). Thus as V policy says, "The appropriateness of any source depends on the context," and that is 360 degrees of context. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:51, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:SOURCE

lists just three criteria: the work, the author, the publisher. And it is absolutely formal.

The rest is discussed in "Other issues" section, which implies those considerations are of a secondary importance.

That seems totally logical. Using the Pauling's paper as an example, if we decide it is unreliable for the topic (DNA structure), that immediatelly causes serious problems. "Unreliable" (per WP:SOURCE) means that the work, the publisher, or the author are not trustworthy. In this concrete case, neither teh author not a journal can be considered unreliable, which means the work itself should be considered unreliable. However, some facts and observations presented there are quite correct, and they were corroborated by latter data. How do you propose to resolve that issue?

Furthermore, if some source it not reliable per WP:V, it cannot be used in any context. Does it mean we cannot use the Pauling's article for a discussion of early models of DNA structure? Again, that is nonsence. --Paul Siebert (talk) 22:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Well since you begin falsely, your argument makes little headway. Your attempt to take those 3 things out of context of WP:SOURCE is poor reading, "the appropriateness of any source depends on the context" is part and parcel of WP:SOURCE. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Do you understand the difference between "reliability" and "appropriateness"? I do. I can imagine four different situations: some source may be

• 100% reliable , and 100% appropriate. Example: Watson&Crick's article in Nature (1953) about DNA structure is totally reliable and absolutely approptiate to the Wikipedia article about DNA;
• 100% reliable, but totally inappropriate. Example: Pauling&Corey's article in Nature (1953) about DNA structure is absolutely inappropriate as a source for modern view of DNA structure;
• Totally unreliable, but highly appropriate. Example: Watson's facebook post explaining some details of DNA structure;
• Totally unreliable and absolutely inappropriate. Example: virtually any facebook post written by various freaks about DNA.

Each of those examples are totally realistic, which demonstrates that formal reliability and appropriatenes in some context are quite independent things, and they should not be mixed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Again wrong. Cricks paper is unreliable for 99.9999% of the information in the world, and, in addition, depending on any part of it, perhaps entirely unreliable in that part, given advances in the field. Large parts of Paulings&Linus paper has been demonstrated to be unreliable, other than for the fact that they said it. Those Facebook posts are reliable for the fact that a person wrote it and can be reliable for the author's identity, but nothing else. Your attempt to cleave reliable and appropriate is unsupportable as a matter of policy or contextual reading or good sense. This policy and page does not exist to discuss reliability in abstract, only in use - in context - for the purpose of constructing the pedia. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:43, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Paul, what's Pauling's paper 100% reliable for? Presumably it is both 0% reliable and 0% appropriate for a statement about who the US presidents are, or the year that Julius Caesar was murdered. But what statement is it actually reliable for? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:39, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The question is incorrect. Reliability (as described in WP:V) is a contextless criterion. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem. We have one contextless parameter (verifiability a.k.a. reliability) and one parameter strictly linked to a context (appropriateness). To say "this source is non-verifiable (unreliable) in that context" is an oxymoron. Moreover, to say "it is 0% reliable for a statement about US presidents" is a bullshit, simply because it says nothing about US presidents. However, had Pauling written something about US presidents in Nature, that would be 100% reliable (verifiable) information, although it could be totally inappropriate in most context. I even can imagine some context where it could be 100% verifiable and 100% appropriate, for example, in the article about Pauling's opinion about US presidents. --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:16, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Masem, you are just, em, wrong. WP:V right from the get-go talks about "content" and "material" and "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". It is entirely contextual. -- Colin°^Talk 21:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

There is multiple levels of context at issue here, which is partially why it may be confusing to talk about. There is the context of the topic at a broad level, without discussing any details of the topic, and this - as I read and have understood V/RS to have been developed - is the context that should be used to evaluate when a source is reliable (though not necessarily useable) for that topic - the Rolling Stone for entertainment, not politics example. Then there is the detailed context of specific passages and statements within the body of the article where now we talk if sources are actually useable there due to NOR and NPOV. The overall topic is one broad filter of what are possible sources based on the topic, but NOR/NPOV is a much finer filter based on the specific presentation of that topic.

And then of course, you have the most narrowest context of WP:V specifically in that citations must be present were information is being used, that is, placing citations in the right context, but this is more a mechanical factor and less about determination of reliability or usability of sources. --Masem (t) 21:27, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)An obvious disadvantage of you "holistic" approach is that it leads to incessant disputes "This source is not reliable because it is fringe - no, it is reliable because it was reputably published". In addition to distracting users, it may lead to unpredictable outcome, depending on which party is more persistent and numerous. In contrast, by splitting the discussion on separate subtopics, each of which with clear and unequivocal answer, we can rule out a possibility of such outcome. Indeed, those who are making stress on reputability cannot win a dispute unless a non-fringe nature of the source is proven. Similarly, those who oppose to that source because they believe it is fringe do not have to question the publisher's reputation: this issue is not relevant if the source is fringe.

However, there may be some advantages of your approach that I haven't seen. Can you please explain them?--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:38, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Paul, it isn't helpful to say that a source is fringe. The viewpoints and opinions expressed in a source may be fringe, but the source is just a source of information. -- Colin°^Talk 21:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and, going back to your example (Pauling's paper), it IS a reliable source for many statements. Thus, Pauling and Corey reported that nucleobases are separated by 3.5 Angstroms, and they are stacked. And that is exactly what we know about the DNA structure. I don't know if you are familiar with biophysics, but a standard Watson-Crick model also assumes that the bases are stacked, and the distance between them is 3.5 A. Furthermore, triple helices are also reported for DNA. That means only Pauling&Corey's conclusions are wrong, but their data are quite trustworthy. Which proves my point: the source is reliable per WP:V, but some Pauling's thougths are fringe, and should be treated accordingly.-Paul Siebert (talk) 21:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Paul and Colin, you two seem to be violently agreeing with each other. I wish the agreement could be less violent.

Colin wrote "This would not be a reliable source for our article to say "DNA has a triple helix structure." Primary research papers are not reliable sources for scientific facts" (e.g., for Wikipedia to say that something is definitely so, rather than for saying that someone said or did something).

Notice that Colin doesn't say "not reliable for any purpose at all"; to find that sort of anti-policy thinking, you'll have to go to find less-experienced editors at RSN and RSP. Colin has already agreed with you that Pauling's paper is reliable for many statements, including for statements such as "In 1953, Pauling proposed that DNA is a triple helix". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:39, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

:)--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

My problem is that sometimes Paul writes things that seem to be agreeing with me and then spoils it by writing something that seems to disagree with what they wrote. For example, wrt "a source for modern view of DNA structure" Paul claims the paper is "100% reliable" and just "inappropriate". And I don't even begin to understand the "Totally unreliable, but highly appropriate." comment about Watson's facebook. We don't consider such research papers to be reliable sources for scientific fact (something that is definiately so). All such papers are a kind of letter to the scientific community: "Look we did these experiments, we got these results, we think it means this, what do you think?" They are tentative assertions of something that others will confirm and agree or disagree on. As such that makes them an unreliable source of the kind of confident facts Wikipedia is mostly about. Of course, NPOV and WEIGHT and other policies can help here too because it can help to reinforce when a paper got it wrong. But pluck a random scientific research paper out of PubMed and it simply isn't reliable that the thrust of that paper represents current consensus thinking on the topic. And that's quite a bit of what WP:V is about: reliability. I dare say there are some articles in the Daily Mail that are not completely made up. -- Colin°^Talk 07:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The line about Watson's Facebook post is presumably an updated version of what we said years ago about a blog post by Albert Einstein about his physics theories being a reliable source for statements about his physics theories. This was the point behind SOURCE: Einstein is a reliable source about physics, even if he's just posting on his blog, just like people you've never heard of are reliable sources on physics when their articles are published in a reputable journal.

I am not entirely sure that the community agrees with this principle in practice now. The proponents of RSP have been pushing the idea that the publisher/periodical matters the most, so nothing written by Einstein in The Daily Mail could possibly be reliable, even if it were a word-for-word copy of something he published in a more reputable forum. (Which, to be fair, in such a case I'd prefer citing the other version, too, but I also wouldn't claim that Einstein wasn't a reliable source just because DM published something from an actual subject-matter expert for once.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:49, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Publisher absolutely matters on reliability. Einstein if published in the Daily Mail op-ed today would be outright rejected due to DM's known falsification so we can't trust those are Einstein's words, but Einstein published in the NYTimes would at least meet RSOPINION. Same would apply if we think social media and the idea of verified accounts - Just because someone claiming to be Einstein posting on Medium or as a Forbes Contributor, for example, would not be considered reliable, but if they had the Twitter blue checkmark as verified as Einstein, we'd at least again accept that as RSOPINION. --Masem (t) 18:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I recall the policy already says something about that: if Einstein believed his idea deserves publication, he would have published it in some scientific journal, not only in Daily Mail. If this information was found in Daily Mail only, that means Einstein himself didn't consider it serious.--Paul Siebert (talk)

So if he posts an opinion on social media, it's fine, but if a disreputable newspaper offers to let him run an op-ed (maybe they're trying to burnish their tarnished reputation?), you don't trust anything he says? This kind of thing does happen. If Einstein were alive and used social media, the Daily Mail's marketing department should be falling all over themselves to be able to tweet something like "Read what @AlbertEinstein says about #physics and #science". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Do you really think Einstein could write something totally new for Daily Mail? I means something that cannot be found in his peer-reviewed publications?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:28, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

NPOV v V

Masem, I agree with your summary. However, it seems the way RSN is organized contradicts to it. Instead of contextless discussion of reliability of sources per WP:V, the page's header emphasises WP:RS as a primary criterion. WP:V is mentioned only is the "Additional notes" section. Some people (including myself) believe RSN is linked to WP:V in teh same way as NOTN linked to WP:NOR, and NPOVN to WP:NPOV, but, in reality, WP:V is the only policy that has no dedicated noticeboard (in contrast to NPOV and NORN). Do you think that situation is normal?--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that WP:V is the controlling policy while RS is the guideline that supports it. The way I see it, WP:V does not try to go into detail on how to evaluate what is a RS, but only that WP articles must be based on RS, must include citations, and simply being verified in an RS doesn't guarentee inclusion. V only gives very broad strokes on how to determine what is a RS, and read alone (without WP:RS) would be useless for source reliability discussions. It's also basically far more of a directly, hard-to-interpret-differently policy , and hence the lack of its own noticeboard. WP:RS is then the specifics of how to interprete whether a source is reliable, and as a guideline, there is a lot of wiggle room. And that's why it has its own noticeboard for that purpose. But that's still along the lines that evaluating a source for reliability via WP:RS should be done independently of trying to judge then if that's a usable source per NPOV and NOR. --Masem (t) 20:00, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The problem with your "along the lines" is that, to reach consensus, we have to put everything into a common knowledge domain. That means every essential concept must be explicitly stated, instead of keeping them along the lines. The RSN's headers links primarily to WP:RS (guidelines), and adds, in the "Additional notes" section, that WP:V is the page's main policy. That means the primary function of the page is the analysis of sources in a context, as opposed to intrinsically contextless nature of WP:V. That is a primary reason for incessant confusion, conflicts and manipulations, because some people, like me, make a stress on WP:V, others keep in mind WP:RS, and POV-pushers capitalize on that contradiction in attempt to push their agenda.

That can be easily fixed if we change hierarchy, by explaining that in the RSN header. Instead of

• This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources
  are reliable
  in context.

we should write:

• This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources comply with the
  reliable in context
  .

That changes a format of answers to e.g. "Yes, it is reliable, but should not be used in that context".

And, last but not least, if the opening sentence of the header links to guidelines, that implies the results of the RSN discussion are just a recommendation, which makes a discussion toothless.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I would expand the latter statement to "considered reliable for supporting a specific statement".

And if I thought that it would have much effect, or not get reverted within the day, I'd suggest copying the line about sources that are always/never reliable out of the FAQ at the top of this page, too. But I currently don't feel much hope about making RSN consider the statements, rather than trying to issue blanket bans on politically biased sources. You have to be able to do Close reading to do that well, and that might be a dying art in our community. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Just as a thought that is not fully developed yet but want to postulate here - when we talk reliability of sources, we have generally always talked about the "bulk" of the source - the newspaper itself, the journal itself for cases of periodical type works, or in the case of books or other one-off materials, the publisher of the work. That doesn't mean within a given case of, say, a newspaper that we have cases where parts of it are unreliable if the work is otherwise considered reliable, such as op-eds from a reliable newspaper. But the "reliable" quantity has always been something applied to the "many" and not to the "single" work that be from that source. Once we start talking about a single work, we just the reliability of the work it has been pulled from, and then should begin the descent down NOR/NPOV and other factors that would determine if the work is useable and should be included. I know this is not yet a complete thought because

WP:RS definitely speaks to case-by-case evaluation (particularly talking primary vs secondary sources) and that complicates this through, but if we think "reliability" as a function of the whole of the work and not of the individual source, and then usability as a function of the specific source, that might simplify matters. --Masem (t

) 01:41, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

That is not so, although we can certainly decide on the unreliability of a work, and/or an author, and/or a publisher, and/or on whether the source is reliable for a statement made. Reliability is regularly not an attribute of a whole work because reliability for this policy and for the pedia is not an abstract. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I've just realized that I wrote essentially the same in my 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC) post. "Reliability" means the source meets some general and contextless criteria of information quality, and that is WP:V's domain. "Appropriateness" defines if that source can be used for this particular purpose and in this particular context, and that type decision is made based on WP:NOR/NPOV, and taking into accound WP:RS/MEDRS recommendations.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:48, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Reliability is context-dependent. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:14, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Again, your "reliability" is a composite term that combines "verifiability" and "trustworthiness/appropriateness". The former is contextless, and it is obvious from a purely logical point of view: indeed, the information is verifiable if a reader can go by a reference and see that it really says that. The latter does depend on context, and I never said it doesn't. However, WP:V says virtually nothing about a procedure of determination of "trustworthiness/appropriateness". That means we can say some source is verifiable per WP:V, because verifiability criteria are explained in the WP:V page. However, we cannot say the source is reliable (a.k.a trustworthy/appropriate) per WP:V, because the page says nothing about a procedure of its determination. If you disagree, show me which section of the WP:V page provides any details on that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:26, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Masem I don't find the statement "when we talk reliability of sources, we have generally always talked about the "bulk" of the source - the newspaper itself, the journal itself for cases of periodical type works, or in the case of books or other one-off materials, the publisher of the work." to reflect the sourcing discussions I've experienced. WP:V says "Use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source depends on the context". This is in the section "What counts as a reliable source". So "appropriateness" isn't some other concept covered by some other policy. I don't understand the idea of thinking of "sources" without context (the material or text in the article) or claims that WP:V is contextless. The thing being evaluated has to be the source of article text or it isn't a source. Although a source manifests as an document in a publication by an author and publisher, if it isn't propping up some article text then it is just a newspaper column or a paper or a book or a website. A source is where something came from. Without that something, it isn't a source.

At WP:MED, nobody has ever said "That paper is in The Lancet so meets WP:V and is a reliable source". An op-ed in a newspaper or an editorial in a medical journal are simply not reliable sources for facts about the world. They are reliable for what the author believes and may present the opinion of a newspaper or journal or even a body who the author represents. The "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" is contextual. Different kinds of article in Nature, say, will be subject to different kinds of fact checking and accuracy checks. The editorial by definition is not reviewed by peers or superiors, and merely the reputation of the journal prevents the author from getting too carried away. A research paper is only checked that the research is described accurately and the conclusions are not unreasonable. It isn't checked to ensure it reflects the consensus opinion of the field, for that is exactly what happens after publication.

A newspaper such as The Guardian, may generally meet the reputation for fact checking and accuracy. But really only for straightforward reporting and investigative pieces. The opinion pieces are less reliable to varying degrees (as WP:V says, the author is a factor). And sketch pieces such as those by John Crace can best be described as "inspired by actual events". Crace's humorous politics essays fail WP:V even though we happily accept some other article about a recent murder case, say. -- Colin°^Talk 09:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The policy explains in details what "reliability" means, but it mentions "appropriateness" just in passing. From that, I conclude "appropriateness" is NOT a part of WP:V. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:36, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Paul, that doesn't sound like what you've been saying for the last two days. See, e.g., your comment at 04:48, 1 October 2021 and the "100% appropriate" options. Is this the first time you have thought about that line? It's possible that creating a distinction between reliability and appropriateness would be a path forward. We could define reliability as a general quality, and appropriateness as whether a reliable source is useful in a given situation.

(We might then need to come up with a different word for the current/past use of that term, which I believe is more like discouraging the use of a source to support a contentious claim if the source barely mentions the subject.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:19, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

This is arguably the crux of this discussion - that some editors group "appropriateness" into "reliability" while others see them as two wholly separate concepts. I would strongly agree with what I've written here myself these should be handled differently, reliability being from V and RS's oversight, while appropriateness falling to NPOV/NOR and other content policy aspects. --Masem (t) 18:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I think it is quite normal that my position changes during a discussion. Isn't it a goal of any organized and mutually respectful discussion?

Masem, grouping two different criteria is always a source of manipulations, and separation of these two criteria would be a huge step forward.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:09, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I tried to allude to the fact that when we discuss the reliability of the "whole" of a publication, that there can be specific subset rules, like op-eds for newspapers, and I would expect similar for peer-reviewed journals that include non-peer-review letters or the like. (To this point

WP:RS/P has some principles around this) The point those is that categorically, to take the Lancet as an example, that the Lancet as a whole is a reliable source for any work that has been through its peer-review process. Any subsequent questions on a specific article from that subset are questions left to the specifics of appropriateness of NOR, NPOV and other content policies. If a Nobel scientist had a peer-reviewed paper in Nature that first postulated a completely new model of quantum theory that was 180 degrees from accepted thinking, it would be a work from a reliable source, but it likely would not be appropriate to include per NPOV due to the disagreement with the accepted model. That paper itself it not unreliable, just that from an encyclopedic view, its just not appropriate to include yet. If an editor were trying to offer up a non-peer reviewed letter in Nature or Lancet as a source, we'd immediately just say that such letters categorically fail reliability as a whole due to their lack of peer review (not just the specific letter). --Masem (t

) 13:13, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

That is not the case, there are a billion things for which that peer reviewed Lanct article is not reliable, and only a small set of things for which it might be depending on the context. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I have a feeling that most of what one would use to say an individual source (and for reasons, specifically a peer-reviewed paper) from the Lancet is "unreliable" is really something that is "unusable" under NPOV/NOR and other content guidelines. In practice, the same net result comes out, but the terminology can be important to make sure that source evaluation in other cases is done properly. --Masem (t) 13:43, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps it's best to back-up, our purpose is creating encyclopedic content and that's what WP:V is designed to support. Thus, reliability is judged in relation to what it is being used (for). Our purpose is not to vet the Lancet as some phispohical excerize, our purpose is to take a content statement we write (our, yes, minimally original writing), together with the source, and determine the relibility of the source for that proposed (our written work of minmal originality) encyclopedic statement. If the source is not reliable for that proposed content, we need to reject the content, the source replaced, or both the statement and the source rejected for use in the article, or for that use, in the article. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:11, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The thing to keep in mind is that verifyability is mainly that 1) the reader is given enough information to locate the source 2) the source has a reasonable amount of editorial control/fact checking that we are able to take their published word as as statement we can justify (but not necessarily as "truth"). A peer-reviewed paper in Lancet or Nature is such a case. A news article in the NYTimes is such a case. An op-ed article in the NYTimes is not such a case, nor is a non-peer-reviewed letter in Lancet. That's the extent of what WP:V and reliability is meant to cover. Now, as I have said, we do just reliability relative to the broad topic as per things like MEDRS, but reliability at an individual statement level is the wrong approach.

To take the hypothetical example of a Nobel laureate that has published a completely groundshaking theory in Nature as a peer-reviewed paper that is diametrically opposed to standard theory, and lacking any collaboration - that paper is still reliable for what it is reporting. Remember that verifyability is not about truth, just that are are reasonably justified that we're not looking at made up material, hoaxes, or any other deliberate misinformation. It doesn't matter what topic area we're talking about, as a peer-reviewed paper in a top level journal, its reliable. But because it presents a theory counter to long-standing scientific understanding, we absolutely are not bound to include it on topics about that theory or give it any weight anywhere, per NPOV/UNDUE. That doesn't change reliability of the source at all, that's still a factor coming from being a peer-reviewed paper in Nature.

As to come back to what I know has been an issue, now we take a Nobel laureate's letter or opinion piece (non peer reviewed) in Lancet. That doesn't immediately qualify as a reliable source under normal RS, but it does qualify as a proper RSOPINION source - particularly as we don't expect the Lancet to be falsifying letters or other non-peer reviewed materials from writers, we can readily presume that that piece is the writer's own thoughts, and thus reliable for their opinion. But whether their opinion is justified to be included is the caution that RSOPINION says to defer to NPOV/UNDUE to judge, and in this case, which involves the questioning of the COVID-19 origins, there's a lot of reasonable questions about inclusions to be asked. But it's reliability for the author's opinion does not change regardless of those questions; that reliability (for being the author's opinion) is established due to being an opinion piece written in the Lancet. There's plenty of reasons why not to use that opinion piece, but it is not a reliability issue as that's a fixed point once the publication is identified. --Masem (t) 14:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

(e/c) No, the function of verifiability is that the reader can check what WE WRITE, and it's purpose is to create encyclopic content. There are billions of statements we write and can write and have written for which that peer reveiwed Lancet article is entirely unreliable, and for which such an opinion piece is entirely unrelaible. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:30, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

In some respects, The Lancet makes an unfortunate example, because they are notorious for "groundshaking" articles like the Lancet MMR autism fraud. But let's take that example. The Nobel laureate has published a completely groundshaking theory. The article is peer-reviewed and in a reputable journal.

The question isn't whether the article is "reliable". The question is what that article is reliable for.

IMO it is reliable for statements like "Alice Expert published research on the size of the Sun in 2021, claiming that the diameter of the Sun is 1.05 million miles and the volume is twice the 20th-century estimates".

IMO it is not reliable for statements like "The Sun has a diameter of just over one million miles" or "The Sun is twice as large as previously thought".

So is it reliable? The answer is both yes and no. Whether it is reliable depends on what you want to say in the article. The source is reliable for some statements and not reliable for other statements. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

To me, this tells me something about how we write, rather than reliability, in line with

WP:VOICE, though it also speaks to understanding primary verses secondary sources and other details around how we deal with classifying sources. By default, any peer-reviewed research paper presenting results from research done by the authors is primary, so regardless if their conclusions agree with established theory or deviate significantly, the results should still be presented in Wikivoice as "According to (authors)...", the source still reliable as the researchers' reporting of their results. If we had a peer-reviewed secondary source capturing a review of the literature, itself not introducing any new ideas, then that source is still reliably but we don't have to worry about the attribution in Wikivoice. There's lot of little nuances in this, but in thinking in this approach, we're not changing the reliability of the source, but separating out how WP editors should be writing to properly capture the source's information based on PSTS and other such details. --Masem (t

) 17:21, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Or another way to put this: Our writing should follow from what the source is (primary/secondary, etc.), rather than what's being argued as trying to justify sources that are used to be appropriate (whether that's reliable or usable or other measure) for what we've written. Yes, a lot of times we are ending up chasing down "citation needed", but most cases where debates on sources are being used are based on this feedback loop between what's being written by editors and then finding sources to back that up, rather than the reverse that we should be doing of finding what sources there are that are reliable and then summarizing that in our writing. That's part of why this is an issue, as this all reflects on this poor approach of developing articles. --Masem (t) 17:36, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Surely a good writer should, but the process you decribe is internal to the USER -- it's not what we discuss on the pedia, we discuss almost entirely only after it has been written and a citation already purportedly represented in the pedia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I recognize that the approach (write first, source later) is extremely common, and in non-controversial areas of common/non-specialist knowledge, this is not really harmful. But when this is applied in controversial topics and particularly in speciality areas, where some WPians claim expertise (regardless if they have it or not) it creates a pre-deposition of what sources are going to be used to back that up. And this is where I see it important to distinguish when we are excluding sources specifically due to the unreliability of the work that they are published in (which is a non-starter for inclusion in the first place), and their lack of usability due to polices like NOR/NPOV/etc. --Masem (t) 18:21, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker:, yes, the function of verifiability is that the reader can check what we write, and that is what WP:V (a.k.a. "Verifiability") should focus on. When a reference is provided to some reliable source, a reader can go and check by themselves, and that is why "verifiability" criterion is intrinsically contextless. We actually have two different "reliabilities": "reliability aka verifiability", and "reliability aka correctness/mainstreamness". The first reliability is not dependent on a context, the second one is strictly linked to the content of some concrete article (relevance) and to the whole body of other sources on that subject (which is a NPOV's domain).

In other words, WP:V analyzes the source (as a whole) taken separately from other sources, and it is doing that in a purely formal way. In contrast, NPOV analyzes some concrete source in a context of all other sources. That is why WP:V is intrinsically contextless, and everything that is related to a context is addressed by NPOV.

@WhatamIdoing:, Lancet publication you are talking about was debunked and retracted, so this your argument is moot.

With regard the rest, the question is not correctly formulated. Not "what this source is reliable for?", but "how this information should be presented?". In other words, the question does not belong to the WP:V domain, because reliability of that source in indisputable. The question belongs to the NPOV domain: if the Nobel prize winner's statement is supported by majority of other sources, it can be used without reservations. If it contradicts to what majority sources write (but is supported by some other authors), it should be used with attribution as a significant minority POV. If the source contradicts to everything what other sources write, that reliable should probably not be used at all.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:10, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Almost all of what you have argued is incorrect as a matter of policy, and it is not getting better with you repeating it. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:29, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

That argument is unbeatable. The only possible responce is: you are wrong. :)--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:53, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Your argument has already been beaten. There is just no use in going over it again. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:19, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I would say the opposite: my arguments are essentially in agreement with what other users (e.g. Masem) say, whereas you even cannot clearly articulate what you are disagreeing with.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I and others have several time clearly articulated your errors and you just keep repeating your claims. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:23, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't remember you pointed at my error. It is more a disagreement over interpretation of the term "reliability". I can agree that I am wrong in two cases: (i) you find some wrong fact that I use for my speculations, or you point at some fact that I overlooked, or (ii) you find some error in my logic. So far, I saw no arguments of that type.

I think we can easier achieve consensus if you ask the following questions:

• Why the policy's name is "Verifiability", not "Reliability"?

• The policy explains in details
  guidelines are not some strict rule, they are more a recommendation).--Paul Siebert (talk
  ) 19:53, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

That reminds me of the discussion JBchrch and I were having at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources this summer. It seems that we never produced a definition of "reliable source". We have information about how to figure out whether your source is reliable, but not a statement that says what it is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:30, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

(outdent)

Paul says:

With regard the rest, the question is not correctly formulated. Not "what this source is reliable for?", but "how this information should be presented?". In other words, the question does not belong to the WP:V domain, because reliability of that source in indisputable.

The FAQ at the top of this page says:

Are there sources that are "always reliable" or sources that are "always unreliable"?

No. The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and the statement it is being used to support. Some sources are generally better than others, but reliability is always contextual.

One of these things is not like the other, right?

If "The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on...the statement it is being used to support", then there are no indisputably reliable sources, and "what is this source reliable for?" is a critical question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:09, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

An issue that this discussion is raising with with respect to "the statement it is being used to support", backing the "write first, source later" approach, can lead to lots of conflict on topics of controversial nature where editors have established how the topic should be discussed based on their own expertise and then expect the sources to be found to back it. That approach causes misclassification of sources that would be reliable to be dismissed as unreliable (when there are other valid reasons not to possibly use that source) particularly in the more controversial areas. We want editors to follow the sources and that means we should be reviewing sources first and then writing to meet that, and for that purposes, reliability of a source should be decided before we write the article. --Masem (t) 17:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

If that's the issue being raised, it certainly isn't answered by the anti-V-policy argument that you can decide reliability out-of-context. Per policy, deciding a source is reliable is a function of putting it in context, the context of it's production, it's use, and it's own content in relation to reality, which requires more than just the incompetent taking what a source says and declaring it reliable in total. There are a multitude examples of "generally reliable sources" (which is how the issue is, perhaps too often, raised at RSN) that print bad information that no one should rely on (probably every generally reliable source has done so (being generally produced by humans), except maybe the Holy Book(s) for the true believers). Conversely, there are reliable source uses for on Wikipedia per policy, for sources declared "generally unreliable". -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:21, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

(

Questionable sources should be used only as sources for material on themselves. In other words, the policy doesn't say some questionable sources may be reliable in some context, it says that unreliable sources may be used in some concrete situations (which doesn't make them reliable).--Paul Siebert (talk

) 20:49, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

You have not proved anything except you don't understand Verfiability or reliability or the section you cite, when a such a source used as a cite in Wikipedia it can only be, and must be, a reliable source for that Wikipedia content. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:26, 2 October 2021 (UTC)