Talk:Horror film: Difference between revisions

Valereee (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking into, the book seems to just say it's a cycle without really providing a lot of evidence. It even state Jason Bailey discussing that since Halloween leading to a glut of holiday-themed horror and the author themselves states on page 5 and 6 "defining a Christmas horror subgenre has also proven to be challenging." noting it's not limited to a santa-themed killer, it's not a sub-genre of the slasher, but then again says there is a sub-set of it that is a slasher sub-sub-genre (on page 7). I'm not seeing any real strong definition here other than in and out of horror film history, some horror films were set on Christmas. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Defining it may be challenging, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist as a subgenre. It has subgenres of its own. Not sure what "it's a cycle" means.

What exactly are you looking for, if a book about the subgenre published by an established publisher that uses the term "Christmas horror subgenre" multiple times in its introduction isn't good enough? Valereee (talk) 20:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, that makes it quality as a Google search, but there is little context here, there is no meat on the bones of it. It can't seem to decide what it is other than "some horror films are on Christmas" but might as well say that any film. Is it a horror subgenre or a Christmas film subgenre? The book does not seem to go into detail and doesn't makes a convincing argument and doesn't even seem convinced by its own declaration. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we'll need a third opinion. Valereee (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've requested one. Valereee (talk) 20:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. I'm actually at a keyboard I can type at now. To clarify, this niche style seems irregularly represented against other horror cycles here such as the slasher, teen horror film, or the slasher. I feel this information from the book is probably misplaced, or better by Christmas by medium. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is a horror cycle? Valereee (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hollywood cycles. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does that concept -- explained in a microstub which has been tagged as unsourced for fifteen years -- have to do with whether or not a subgenre qualifies as a subgenre? Valereee (talk) 21:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to help you if you are trying to write about film genre and have not stumbled upon the term "genre cycle". Either way, I'd also bring up

WP:FRINGE for this as this is such a small sub-sub-sub-genre, that having it located within the article against far more broad terms "slasher, supernatural horror, etc." There are certainly a book or two about Christmas themed horror films, but I don't see anything scholarly or serious (as this book even opens up, it's not supposed to be a serious scholarly view). Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

I'll ignore the insult. Again: what does that concept -- or FRINGE -- have to do with whether or not a subgenre qualifies as a subgenre?Valereee (talk) 21:17, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because from what I've researched when writing the article, the Christmas horror cycle or genre or subgenre, did not come into major discussion (which is why I may also refer to

WP:UNDUE, in factoring in this with the other genres.) What is the essential understanding that viewers take away from this? How common is this term? It's not very from my research in writing up this article. I apologize, for the insult, but you asked me twice, when it's something you can easily take search and perhaps I felt a bit attacked. I apologize. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Apology accepted, and I'm sorry you felt attacked. But there's an entire book -- and according to that book, at least two others -- about the subgenre. Why does it matter whether or not someone somewhere is calling it a "cycle"? How is it somehow a fringe theory when an established publisher -- a publisher who publishes academic works -- is publishing a book of essays about the subgenre?

The essential understanding readers take away is that horror includes a subgenre of Christmas horror. It seems to have a history, to have emerged as a genre fifty years ago and have been referred to as a subgenre as recently as two years ago. Those are things readers may want to know about the overall genre. Valereee (talk) 21:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's strong as I never hear the term in regular use. Even looking up the major films like Gremlins or Black Christmas, they are usually referred to by far more common genres or subgenres. This is why I'm calling

WP:UNDUE here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

It doesn't really matter that you never hear the term in regular use, though. What matters is what RS are calling it, and in this case there are multiple RS, including at least one book of essays about the subgenre, using the term. Valereee (talk) 21:43, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are missing the point, I can google it as you have and find bits and bobs, but it's not a strong common thread per

WP:UNDUE. Specifically "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space" We don't include everything just because there is a citation available. It does matter, because there is undue weight applied here. I wouldn't add the term Nu-kaidan applied by David Kalat in his book on J-Horror which he tried to clarify as being a term for the rise of J-Horror films, as the term is not colloquial. I've searching through academic journals and am finding nothing, and I repeat, this is not a substantial sub-genre, despite there being a book by a non-academic on the topic. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not missing the point. It's not undue to include in the article about a genre that discusses subgenres of that genre a very short discussion of a subgenre that has dozens of notable entries going back over five decades and has received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. I'm open to what that short discussion entails, but including it is not undue. Valereee (talk) 22:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment – Just wanted to mention that a good barometer for measuring the acceptance of declared genres, is to look up films at AllMovie, AFI, and BFI to see how those entities categorize film. Just picking one at random here that would seemingly fit the bill of "Christmas horror", I went with Krampus to see how it was categorized. AFI labels it "Comedy, Fantasy, Horror"; BFI just lists "Horror"; AllMovie, which is usually the most inclusive of the bunch, lists the primary genre as "Fantasy, Drama, Horror, Comedy" and the sub-genres as "Creature Film, Holiday Film".
  Looked up Black Christmas next, and BFI again just has "Horror", while AllMovie has "Mystery, Horror, Thriller" with "Slasher" as a sub-genre (interestingly, the film does not have an entry on AFI).
  These are not nails in the coffin for either side of the argument, but they should probably be taken into account. Film genres on Wikipedia typically rely on sources like these, and if they're not using the classification, then chances are it is a fringe classification that isn't widely recognized. That doesn't mean it doesn't deserve some coverage, but it should probably be very limited in scope. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That's basically what I'm trying to get at, even in terms of genre, it would be an utmost outlier that outside of "10 Christmas Horror films to watch around the holidays" as a generic term to cover Gremlins or Black Christmas, which if we gathered the most base sources, would describe it as various other genres and sub-genres more prominently. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The addition I'm suggesting is 115 words. Valereee (talk) 22:24, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not that it's a short or long element, it's that even just including it with the others like natural horror or such feels undue. I think that's not what I'm getting across to you. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You're getting it across to me; you don't want it included at all. I disagree that any inclusion is undue. As I've said, I'm open to what that inclusion is. But based on RS, it's a subgenre. Valereee (talk) 22:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  This is where

  WP:RS also states to " Avoid undue weight when using single studies in such fields." In short, and what I have been trying to get across, is, you'll need more than just this publication, and more specific academic research is not on your side here. If anything, for what I've said above, this fails the rules you said apply to it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  The problem we are going to run into, is that typically when you introduce a subgenre, you need to provide examples. What examples would you provide? AFI, BFI, and AllMovie are among the most respected authorities on the subject. None of them seem to support the subgenre, so that would make listing Black Christmas, Silent Night, Deadly Night, Krampus, etc., a difficult claim to defend. Sure, there are some decent sources out there that have used the "phrase", but are they actually saying this is an established genre?

  I haven't dug into the sources that deeply, so I'm truly just asking the question here as an outside observer. GoneIn60 (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  What horror subgenres that we're mentioning do they support? Valereee (talk) 22:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I mean, if you want to take the time to peruse the site, be my guest. I think one of the three have a complete list you can search through. I can't remember offhand, and I'm out of time today. However, if you could still help me get an answer to the question I asked in the meantime, I'd greatly appreciate it. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 22:56, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  (ec) @GoneIn60, I Was a Teenage Werewolf is also at AFI under Horror. Not "Teen horror". And at AllMovie at Mystery, Horror, Fantasy, Science Fiction, Thriller with subgenres Creature Film, Religious Drama. We mention it here specifically in the Teen horror section, and there isn't even a main article for that section, which is over twice as long as what I'm suggesting. I'm not trying to pretend I understand film genre MOS, but I just don't understand how this could be undue. Valereee (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, I think all subgenres that lack support at AFI, BFI, and AllMovie would be eligible for the same scrutiny. Andrzejbanas is going into these genre articles and attempting to clean them up as

  noted here. That's not to say they have to be explicitly supported by the big three, but if they are not, we're going to need some pretty strong coverage elsewhere, and that probably means more than a passing mention in a few books and articles. Can't hurt to have the discussion. I definitely don't want to lose information that is getting significant coverage. GoneIn60 (talk) 22:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I'm open to removing teen horror honestly as well, as it appears to be more of a cycle (or perhaps belongs in closer observation with the teen film. But as it stands, that one has several academic articles, books from several different authors. I probably didn't do away with it as i've heard the term teen film tossed around enough and managed to find several sources backing it, but I did try and do the same for christmas horror, and came up with basically only your book and several listicles. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:57, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]