Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

You can 'transfer' all the info from that RFC, over to this RFC. Put'em in a "Discussion" subsection, below. GoodDay (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing, I'll do that ASAP. Thanks, GoodDay! A.D.Hope (talk) 19:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose It may well be clearest for the reader to separate them out on more complex cases, but in simpler cases I think it is fine to deal with them in the same section. I oppose adopting separate sections as a general rule; it should be decided case by case.--Trystan (talk) 14:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Making this change case-by-case could be a very laborious process. I would rather form a consensus here that subsections can be used where necessary. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that this is not needed, and shouldn't be applied, in simple cases where someone only ever has one title that matches their style. But we've seen lots of confusion on the more complex cases that change over time. Gecko G (talk) 22:05, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. This doesn't correct the underlying problems with these sections. Often they contain unnecessary fluff, telling readers that the article subject can be called Ma'am (which appies to every woman in the world) or was called Miss Maidenname before she was married (which applies to every married woman in the world). Such statements are pointless. Nor does the suggested change correct the problem regarding the bullet points. The bullet points are confusing because they're an over-simplistic way of presenting sometimes complex information and don't explain why a change occurred. The problems are the formatting within the section and the inclusion of trivia, not with the section headings.
  Celia Homeford (talk) 07:50, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Oppose for exactly this reason. In fact, I believe an RfC on the very existence or at least the content of these sections might be necessary. Surtsicna (talk) 19:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I slightly agree with you on the first part about Miss and Ma'am type of situations being perhaps superfluous (maybe rename it to "Noble Titles and Styles" and drop that part?), but I disagree with the second part. The bullet points presents & summarizes the info, then the prose explains it, how is that anymore confusing than say using a ton of footnotes (as some have suggested doing)? PS Glad you were able to follow the discussion over to here. Gecko G (talk) 22:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Royal and noble styles are closely related in nature and common use, so belong together in articles. If you need discussion, do it in the one section - it seems an incorrect assumption this requires sectioning. Dividing them would be making sections into too much detail, and giving too much WEIGHT to each group. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:54, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  They are closely related, but also distinct things and liable to confusion. Placing them into separate subsections helps mitigate this confusion by clearly demarcating the two as separate topics, in a way that paragraphs within a 'Styles and Titles' section would not. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think confusion is a big issue, nor that separation would not make its own confusion and having to go scrolling back and forth to see both. If one is going to address confusion, that is better addressed by giving narrative explanation or link to Royal and noble styles - with it all in one section. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 08:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There did seem to be some confusion in the original RfC at William, Prince of Wales, which does make me think confusion is generally an issue. Separation would allow each topic to be addressed individually and clearly without needing to explain the difference between titles and styles in each article. The subsections will likely be short in each case, so having to scroll probably won't be much of an issue. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per above. The two concepts are very closely related, and it would be better to sum it up without bullet points, in a prose section, which details the changes over time and gives the different styles alongside the titles when there's a change. I'd also suggest this model apply to William. His situation isn't that complicated, and as Celia notes, readers need to understand why a change in style occurred.  — Amakuru (talk) 06:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  But when using a reference material (like an encyclopedia, which wikipedia claims to be), and you want to be able to look up what a persons style was at a given date, it's easier to look at the date range you're interested in on the bullet points than to read through a whole prose section and try to follow along and derive it from that. Gecko G (talk) 22:19, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It's starting to look like which ever way it is done, it confuses some groups of people. So which way would confuse the fewest number of people? And which way would minimize the number of well meaning, but incorrect, "drive-by-edits" by those who are confused? Gecko G (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Should have one section not just because they are closely linked but would help page navigation too. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Generally oppose In many of these cases it feels we are trying to make something appear simpler than it is. In cases that are truly simple (e.g. Alan Sugar's honours) bullet points aren't needed, and in cases that are complicated the bullet points aren't accurate. Even seemingly simple lists (like David Armstrong-Jones, 2nd Earl of Snowdon's) could lead to all sorts of potential controversy if we ended up bogged down in the issue of whether he actually inherited the title Viscount Linley on the day he stopped using it. If we must have bullet-pointed lists then, given that the titles are generally for life, I would suggest just using the dates honours were granted or inherited to avoid potentially confusing and contentious end dates. Reserve end dates for people whose titles are taken from them or who become monarch. --Mgp28 (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  For what it's worth, David Armstrong-Jones's page you linked to as an example is just wrong. In the subsection labeled "Titles and Styles" it only gives his Style's overtime not his titles despite the subsection being labeled "Titles AND Styles" (and it omits his style used professionally). Either A) information on his titles should be added, or B) The subsection should be retitled something like "Noble Styles" AND "Titles" removed from the section header, or C) information on his professional style should be added PLUS the subsection and section should both remove "Titles" from their names, or D) Some satisfactory combination of parts of those options (such as, for example, the above proposal of separating out into different subsections plus adding info on his titles).

  Whichever one of those corrective options is taken, how can it be done without causing confusion - or at least causing the least confusion? Deciding that as a guideline, I believe, is the question at hand. And then having that established guideline to refer to when gently correcting well-meaning, but erroneous, drive-by edits. Gecko G (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I think each of your suggestions would make these lists more accurate. I don't have strong opinions on this, I just wonder whether we will end up with lists more complicated than we could have described in prose (returning to David Armstrong-Jones for a final time, the first sentence of the article already tells me more than the list is a smaller space). --Mgp28 (talk) 10:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, as mentioned (above? below? in the previous discussion? - I've lost track of where) in simpler cases it perhaps is questionable if it's needed at all, though still useful. In David Armstrong-Jone's straightforward case, his can indeed be summed up adequately in just one compound sentence, but there's also no harm in having both. In his 60 years he has only had one change involving 2* different styles over his life and only 2 titles. (*=3, if you include his "professional" style).

  Compare that with the individual's article who started this- William. In his just 40 years of life he has already had 6 different styles at different times, and added 10 or 11 titles at 3 different points in time, and he is quite likely to undergo at least one more big set of changes in the future. The amount of prose needed to explain all that is lengthy, so without both the prose and a list someone wanting to know their style at a given point in time has to try to read through and workout what his style was when, whereas if both are given, and someone has a source referring to someone by a given style a researcher can quickly cross check the date of the source with the given styles list for the individual to see if it is referring to this 'Title x of place y' person or another person who's style is referencing a different (earlier/later) holder of style "z" derived from "Title x of place y".

  If you look at other members of Royal or Imperial families, it can be even more complex (especially some of the East Asian one's with the addition of reign and posthumous reference styles).

  For a reference material, like an encyclopedia such as Wikipedia, Style is more useful to know than some obscure subsidiary title, but yet many editors seem to want to throw away the style information. The format could absolutely, definitely, do a better job of distinguishing between changing styles vs changing titles, and debate on HOW to relay such info is quite welcome and appropriate, as is debate on setting a complexity threshold where it becomes necessary to include or not (i.e. as pointed out elsewhere, a simple change from "Ms." to "Mrs.", or similar obvious cases, isn't worth the bytes needed to mention it), but I don't understand the argument some seem to be making here that Wikipedia should just ignore Styles. It seems such arguments derive from two starting positions: Either A) some folks not understanding the difference between Style and Title, or B) that a bulleted list is somehow more complex or inferior to prose. It only seems more complex because it's currently mislabeled, and people are thinking it's a bulleted list of titles over time when it's actually a bulleted list of styles over time. Likewise, the prose is needed as well for explanation and background reasons, so both should be present. But I'm also starting to feel like perhaps I'm the only one, and am just repeating myself, and I don't want to be that kind of disruptive Wikipedia editor. Am I failing to adequately explain my case and I should just stop? Gecko G (talk) 21:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion2

Copy of RfC discussion at Talk:William,_Prince_of_Wales#RfC_on_Titles_and_Styles A.D.Hope (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

'Titles and Styles' is a section in the articles of many royal figures, including British ones. Most include a bulleted list of titles and styles with a date range showing when the titles and styles were used. There are inconsistencies with these date ranges. For example, recent versions of this article have used:

• 8 September 2022 – present: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

and

• 8 – 9 September: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

I believe the root of the issue is that titles and styles are different things with incompatible dating conventions.

I would appreciate comment on how the 'Titles and Styles' section of this article should be formatted or changed. Thank you.

Note: a similar RfC has been made at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility#RFC: Titles & Styles by @GoodDay. I am opening this RfC on the advice given there that this is a more appropriate place to request comment. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:35, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, the closest similar case, a royal duke subsequently becoming heir apparent, is with George V and this is what his article has:

• 3 June 1865 – 24 May 1892: His Royal Highness Prince George of Wales
• 24 May 1892 – 22 January 1901: His Royal Highness The Duke of York
• 22 January – 9 November 1901: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and York
• 9 November 1901 – 6 May 1910: His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales
• 6 May 1910 – 20 January 1936: His Majesty The King-Emperor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:241:300:B610:7517:234B:5B15:378A (talk) 17:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "Duke of Cornwall and York" dates should've been changed to "22 January 1901 – 6 May 1910", at the George V page. GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Top example, is what I prefer. Charles III's section, should have his "Duke of Cornwall" dates as 1952 to 2022; not 1952 to 1958. Therefore, IMHO, we should show the dates for when they've held such titles. Not just the dates for when those titles were their most senior & publicly used. William is still Duke of Cornwall & Cambridge, even though he's now Prince of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 17:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that it's unclear whether these lists are of titles or styles. Your preference would make sense for a list of titles but not a list of styles, since as a rule only one style is used by a person at any one time (Scottish styles for British royals notwithstanding).

The easiest way to resolve this would be to split all 'Titles and Styles' sections into a 'Titles' section and a 'Styles' section, which avoids all ambiguity. The currentl format of this page is a good example. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:06, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As others have said, Style & Titles are 2 separate (though related) things. Style is the reference, tied to the highest held or courtesy title. I.e. It's how the person is referred to in official short form- such as the court circular or other media. Titles are the (usually accumulated) titles held by that person, ie Duke of "x", "y", & "z", Earl of "a", Baron of "b" & "c", etc. The subsidiary titles are still held by the person, but only referenced when locally important or when a full very formal listing is used. Gecko G (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in agreement with A.D.Hope and Gecko G.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:56, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• In complicated situations, avoid misleading and over-simplistic tables. Explain the situation in prose. DrKay (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The situation wouldn't be complicated if 'Styles' and 'Titles' were separate sections, I feel. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It is split, and people are still changing it and confused. So, it hasn't helped. DrKay (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not surprised people are still confused, as at the moment this page is just one of several which all seem to be operating different policies with regard to styles and titles.

  If we can establish a consistent standard then I'm sure the confusion will die down, and part of that standard should be to separate the sections. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Either separate the sections or move the content to separate pages about each individuals styles, titles. There'd be more room to make such changes, on separate pages. All we'd need is a page link from those pages to bios. GoodDay (talk) 00:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  So should the Prince of Wales's other titles (Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge) be [date] – present or [date] – [date he became PoW]? cookie monster 755 03:42, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I look at it from this angle. He's the Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall & Duke of Cambridge, until he becomes King. Which is why I favour the usage of titles, rather then the usage of styles. GoodDay (talk) 03:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  How do you feel about the format used in this article, where the styles are given in a bulleted list (using [date]—[date he became PoW]) and titles are given in a prose paragraph in a different section? A.D.Hope (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The way it is currently in the page (as of Sept 18), works best. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree, though I do really think we should change

  • 8 September 2022 – present: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

  to

  • 8 – 9 September 2022: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

  To make clear that that section is about styles, not titles. William is explicitly called Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Cambridge in the following section, so the information is still there. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I wouldn't, as he's still Duke of Cornwall & Duke of Cambridge. GoodDay (talk) 22:18, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Absolutely, but he's not going to be addressed as that any more, and that's what styles are about. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I wouldn't oppose the titles & styles section being split into two sections 'or' entirely moved to their own page, with a link to the bio. GoodDay (talk) 23:39, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm glad we agree on that. What about the styles section showing an end date for 'Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge', since that style isn't used any more? A.D.Hope (talk) 20:04, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  If it helps with clarity, might I also suggest adding a footnote to the "Cornwall and Cambridge" line that says William continues to hold those two titles but generally isn't styled as such? (I suspect he will still be referred to as the "Duke of Cornwall" in circumstances that directly relate to the Duchy of Cornwall, as Charles was). Aoi (青い) (talk) 20:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm alright with that, if it's applied consistently across the pages. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Wouldn't that just lead to people then getting confused about what happened to the Earl of Strathearn bit?

  Could perhaps the whole entire thing be mollified by putting the "Title" subsection before the "Style" subsection? Of course, if so, then that should be done to ALL of the pages and thus this RFC should go back to a centralized location. Gecko G (talk) 20:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Not to be disruptive, but could we not just be WP:BOLD? Is splitting a subsection into two and slightly rearranging it going to cause that much of a problem? A.D.Hope (talk) 20:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This format is used on a lot of other pages too. If you change it only here, someone down the road will think they are helping to standardize and revert it back. If you instead change it everywhere without discussing it first somewhere central, that would quite likely be viewed as being disruptive. Gecko G (talk) 20:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Disruptive to whom, though? It's a fairly minor change which does not involve changing any facts of the article A.D.Hope (talk) 20:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  replied on your talk page, since this part of the discussion was no longer about this page specifically. Gecko G (talk) 21:04, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Agree on this, the current setup with overlapping styles is confusing IlkkaP (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Make sure you understand the difference between titles and styles. William's style is simply His Royal Highness; his primary title (except in Scotland) is Prince of Wales and his secondary titles include Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Cambridge and a host of lesser titles. The current split incorrectly mixes the two. Rosbif73 (talk) 16:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  HRH is just a part of his style, not his full style by itself. The Prince of Wales is both part of his style AND one of his titles. His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales. Compare it to "Mr. Joe Shmoe". After the initial introduction you might refer to him as "Mr.", "Mr. Shmoe", or just "Joe" depending on various factors (are you talking about him in the third person or to him in the second person, what's your relationship with Joe, how formal is the setting, etc., etc.). Likewise, once it's established that we are talking about HRH The Prince of Wales (and from the date we know it's 'Prince William'), you may then drop one or the other in subsequent mentions to save syllables and refer to him as either just "His Royal Highness" or just "The Prince of Wales" (unless you're a family member or a very close friend in a non-public setting you would never use just "William"). At least that's how I understand it, I imagine there's lots of Brits who would know better than American me. Gecko G (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The current layout with both HRH Duke and HRH Prince overlapping as present styles is very confusing IlkkaP (talk) 21:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Agree with the reasoning of A.D.Hope and Gecko G. above. Aoi (青い) (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Remove the table. As others have said, it's unhelpful and confusing. He retains the titles but doesn't use them. That can only be explained by writing 'He retains the titles but doesn't use them'. That is not conveyed by any version of the table.
  Celia Homeford (talk) 10:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  The only table is the Table of Contents, I'm presuming you're referring to the bulleted list, in which case I disagree with outright removal unless you can somehow justify removing it from every single other person's page who has changing reference styles over time. I don't see how it's confusing, but perhaps I have a base knowledge bias in this area that keeps me from seeing what a lay reader sees - I thought the only potential problem was people not understanding that it was 2 different, but related, things and they were misreading the "and" (Reference Style and Titles). I thought with it now more clearly marked as distinct subsections that fixed the issue. Was that not the original problem? Is it instead not knowing how subsidiary titles work? If that's it we could probably work in a link for a reader to go learn about it, but it's not the job of William's page to explain that concept. If it's something else confusing then what specifically is tripping you up?

  On a side note, come to think of it, I wonder if an actual Table in the title subsection (like Charles' page used to have) might help clarify. Gecko G (talk) 19:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Why is "His Royal Highness" italicized? - Julietdeltalima (talk) 16:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Because it's part of the style, I think. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Because "His Royal Highness" is the style; "Prince of Wales", "Duke of Cambridge", etc. are the titles. Rosbif73 (talk) 19:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  They're also part of the style, in this context. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure about the italicization issue, but yes HRH is part of his reference style, which at this point in time, as I understand it, is properly and precisely "His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales." (sometimes the "His Royal Highness" bit will be abbreviated down to "HRH". I've also seen cases where the post-nominals get included, but I'm not sure how proper that is.) Notice that "William" does not appear anywhere in that (which is, I think, what @Powers: is getting at just below). Prince William is the only one referred to thusly at this moment of time. However, we can't call his wikipage that because in the past others have been called exactly that (i.e. his father had the exact same reference style before Sep 8th) so the compromise is conjunctions like "William, Prince of Wales" or "Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex" and the like, for the wikipage titles, none of which are proper reference styles, but is commonly misused by the public and even the media, so it also works for distinguishing and naming their wikipedia pages. Unfortunately people then glance at wikipedia, see that, don't read the Style section, and that results in further reinforcing people's incorrectly thinking the royals styles are like "Catherine, Princess of Wales" and such, in a reinforcing feed-back-loop, but that's a topic for discussion elsewhere. Gecko G (talk) 20:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I didn't ask why the words were there, I asked why they're in italics rather than plain text. I'm not seeing anything in

  MOS:ITALIC about italicization of styles, although heaven knows I might be missing something. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I was more replying to the discussion between Rosbif73 & A.D. Hope. As I said, I don't know about the italicization, sorry I can't help there. Given that it appears to be standard on other pages my guess is it might be a guideline from one of the relevant wikiprojects. Hopefully someone who knows will answer. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 22:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Call me nuts, but if this is supposed to be a list of all the titles he has held and when he held them, then "HRH Prince William of Wales" doesn't belong because that's not a title. And his Earldom and Barony titles are missing; there's no reason to state that he is still Duke of Cambridge while omitting that he is still Earl of Strathearn. No one would refer to him as "HRH The Duke of Cambridge and Cornwall" anymore outside of very specific circumstances. And the presence of "His Royal Highness" clearly marks this as a list of how he is styled, not a list of his titles. As such, the dates should identify the time period during which the Prince was properly addressed by the listed style. Powers ^T 19:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - At least we found the 'core' of the problem. Styles & Titles should never have been combined into one section. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• ??? Malformed RFC? This all seems about a difficulty in using a list style, not a problem of one section nor something separate sections would fix. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I find the format of the "Titles as Prince Charles" table under List of titles and honours of Charles III § Royal and noble titles and styles far more readable than the bullet points in most of the other articles in question.

It's clearer for the Titles section, if there's a complex case where there's multiple titles acquired at different times, but it is neither here nor there for the styles section. Gecko G (talk) 22:03, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps in the end, deletion from the bios would be best. With a link to corresponding Titles & Styles pages. GoodDay (talk) 22:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Whether that should be a separate page or not is entirely dependent on if there is enough information to support a separate page. Some do, some don't, but even if it does the underlying issue of whether to have separate subsections or not is still relevant, it's just then outside the scope of the Biography MoS specifically. Gecko G (talk) 23:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are we removing the bulletted list as someone has from King Charle's page? Dbainsford (talk) 20:01, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We should have either a bulleted list of principal styles, with a short piece of introductory prose saying that's what they are, or simply (and likely better) say the same thing entirely in prose. It's clearly unhelpful to readers to have a bald list in some "standard" format just to keep editors happy about that for some sentimental reason if it doesn't actually make its meaning clear. Having two subsections, one for "titles" and one for "styles" would be a little clearer, but bizarrely redundant to the point of itself possibly causing "why are we doing much the same thing all over again?", and not a good use of 'space' in an article at any speed. People rarely lose titles, and when they exceptionally do, that's worth explicitly noting in text, not quietly just having a end date in a bulleted list. The idea of style as 'poshest current title' isn't that hard to grasp, and I don't think people are often going to be confused into thinking that 'now has a posher title too' (or for monarchs, absorbed them) implies 'fired as a duke'. Most likely case seem to be that editors are confused into thinking that other people might be. But to prevent either, we should simply explicitly say what the section's doing, and link to our article -- or one of our potentially too many articles -- on the subject. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 01:24, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To me a bullet point of titles with start and end dates with a small paragraph stating from this date he has been known as Prince of Wales, I do like when there is a paragraph which has the full name of the holder. Such as Prince William, Prince of Wales, Duke off... Aide De Camp Knight of the Most excellent order of the Garter, etc. Dbainsford (talk) 08:20, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No closure yet? :( GoodDay (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any guidance on how best to handle an article that cites reliable sources with two different/conflicting birthdates? Miriam Young (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) cites her obituary in the New York Times, but also has a link to her United States Library of Congress authorities page which lists a different date of birth (they both agree on date of death). I made a judgement call and went with the LoC source for the infobox as the obituary (at least the one linked) is a point-in-time historical reference that, if it were to have been updated, would be in a different issue of the newspaper than the original obituary (as a "correction"), where the LoC authorities appears to be a database that can be updated by the maintainers and is likely more "current". Thoughts? —Locke Cole • t • c 15:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would move the conflicting info into a footnote and explicitly address the nature of the conflict there. (You can refer to references even within notes using {{r}}.)

--Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:46, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rule says "Omission of the comma before Jr. or Sr. (or variations such as Jnr) is preferred." If "John F. Kennedy Jr.", not "John F. Kennedy, Jr." is the way to write his name, then we should say that - we should not just call it a "preference". (I noticed a boatload of changes in my watchlist where someone was removing the commas. I came here to check to see what the MOS said and was surprised that the MOS just calls it a preference.) --B (talk) 12:25, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think there used to be wording about how prevalent a comma is used in sources. Seems it now just says it's preferred not to use it. Sometimes I think it's easier to just have a house rule and not worry if other sources sometimes differ. —Bagumba (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We can not make a unified house rule because there are bio subjects who have explicitly stated that their names should be written with the comma (and others who have explicitly stated that their names be written without one). Blueboar (talk) 13:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Then perhaps say so: "Comma before Jr. or Sr. (or variations such as Jnr) is omitted unless the subject prefers it" or something similar? 151.177.56.148 (talk) 05:47, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But we don't actually have any rule to follow subject preference in this regard. IF we did, virtually every "old bio" would move back to using commas, because commas were the common usage from the 1980s and earlier, so would have been the preferred usage of the now-dead subjects.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've boldly revised the section to remove the wishy-washy wording, and the bracketing-commas instruction creep after it. [2]. May get reverted, but I believe this is the direction we should go.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of interest, I have proposed this exact style change at Wikiquote, where it is currently being soundly rejected. BD2412 T 05:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's of interest, actually. All the projects handle style matters independently, even the different-language Wikipedias. En.Wiktionary, for example, does all kinds of things en.Wikipedia would not and vice versa.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:26, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is of interest to the degree that projects have interrelated templates, so that a template on this project calling an article on that one will not function correctly where the same subject has different punctuation from one place to the other. BD2412 T 04:12, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That was probably me you noticed removing commas. I did most of them a few years ago, but recently did a cleanup of new articles since then. See Talk:Arthur Joseph Lewis Jr.#Requested move 6 October 2022. Basically, all grammar/style guides since the 1978 Strunk & White recommend dropping the comma, if I recall correctly, since it never made any logical sense and it reads easier without it. If there are people who have specifically said their name needs a comma, I'd like to hear about that. I've not heard of it so far (though lots of people do write their names that way, as my Dad did; it was the standard back in the mid 20th century). Dicklyon (talk) 05:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The comma style, should be implemented. But, I suppose it's too late now. GoodDay (talk) 06:13, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that a person's preferred pronouns must be enforced on everyone for fear of offending isn't one that is shared by most people on earth. Wikipedia is taking a political stance by enforcing this policy, thereby taking part in a political and ideological debate that runs counter to its presumed neutrality. This is something that should be discussed. Nicolasconnault (talk) 07:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

right, the "political and ideological debate" of whether trans people deserve to live and exist like anyone else Myfbusters (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

i am working on an article on a prize-winning novelist who uses the name "Kim de l'Horizon", and have a question about the guidelines on pseudonyms and deadnames. at the time i created the article, "Kim de l'Horizon" (hereinafter "commonname") was the name being used in the reliable sources i had encountered, so it was the clear wp:commonname. as i have read more about de l'horizon, i have come to realize that de l'horizon is also associated with another name (hereinafter "othername"), but i cannot tell whether commonname is a pseudonym and othername is de l'horizon's current name (hereinafter "pseudocase"), or if commonname is de l'horizon's current name and othername is a deadname (hereinafter "deadcase").

my current interpretation of the situation is that pseudocase is true because it seems that sources in the world of art have publicly connected the two names for years, with one recently prominently stating that de l'horizon won the prize while using commonname as a pseudonym. also, in a biographical blurb of de l'horizon released by their publisher, it states that de l'horizon was born in the year 2666 in gethen, a reference to the left hand of darkness, which makes me believe that de l'horizon may not be treating their kim de l'horizon persona as their legal identity. in addition, (1) i do not believe i have seen de l'horizon attempting to remove any trace of othername, (2) i have not seen a reliable source referring to othername as a deadname, and (3) i have found an instance of what appears to be de l'horizon deliberately connecting the two names publicly (although that was back in 2015). however, because most reliable news sources at the time i created the article had not been using othername in their reporting, i am currently being conservative and editing as if deadcase is true.

in any case, now that i believe that pseudocase is true, i am worried that the article may be misleading as it presents commonname as de l'horizon's current name. however, because i don't want to make any stupid edits that would end up getting revdelled or oversighted, i wanted to get additional opinions on this matter. (i believe othername is not difficult to find if one knows it exists.) if i were to further develop the article, which of the following would be the most appropriate way to do so?

1. treat commonname as a pseudonym, as in the articles for
   conchita wurst
2. treat othername as a deadname, but mention that commonname is a pseudonym in the lead sentence, citing a source that mentions this but not othername
3. treat othername as a deadname
4. something else more appropriate that i had not considered

dying (talk) 10:10, 21 October 2022 (UTC) [note: i have since learned that "2666" is likely a reference to the roberto bolaño novel 2666, published by editorial anagrama. dying (talk) 21:52, 23 October 2022 (UTC)][reply]

Assuming we're talking something not as strong as pen names where the author and pen name are routine reported, pseudonyms are often selected to protect the anonymity of the author, so under BLP, there would have to be strong reliable source that 1) the names are associate with each other and 2) that the person has generally agreed to allow the association between the names. If either condition is not met, then we should treat the situation comparable to deadnames, only reporting the widely known pseudonym and not make any statement to the actual name. A good case is how Banksy is handled. There are a handful that know who is he is but its clear Bansky does not want the association to be widely known, so the best that is done on Bansky' page is a list of speculative connections that RSes have made without confirming any are truthful. Masem (t) 14:19, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

sources that have explicitly mentioned both names and identified commonname as a pseudonym include an austrian and a swiss newspaper (both notable enough to have en wikipedia pages), and a swiss literary magazine (whose parent magazine has an en wikipedia page) in which de l'horizon previously published under othername. here is a source that identifies commonname as a pseudonym without explicitly mentioning othername. i have yet to see a source, reliable or not, describing commonname as a pen name. however, wikipedia's article on pen names states that "[t]he author's real identity may be known only to the publisher", so i am not sure if it would be dispositive if commonname was identified as a pen name.

banksy appears to have consistently desired to hide behind the pseudonym, while i do not think this is the case with de l'horizon. a social media account that uses commonname has deliberately connected commonname with othername in 2015 (though i have not verified that the account actually belongs to de l'horizon). also, i don't think including a speculative list makes sense in de l'horizon's case because othername is easy enough to find if one is looking for it, and de l'horizon made a public appearance at the award ceremony for the prize, so no one is really speculating who de l'horizon is.

would option 2 fall under "only reporting the widely known pseudonym and not make any statement to the actual name", or only option 3? i believe some articles on people with deadnames omit referencing the deadname entirely, while the banksy article clearly states that "Banksy" is a pseudonym. dying (talk) 21:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Does this relate to someone who is trans? I ask because the concept of “deadnaming” trans people is an issue that has its own set of policies and guidelines - that don’t apply to others. Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  here is a solid source that states that de l'horizon identifies as non-binary. i do not think i have seen a source referring to de l'horizon as trans. does the specific set of policies and guidelines apply only to deadnaming trans people? dying (talk) 21:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  No, the guidelines apply to nonbinary people as well. Newimpartial (talk) 21:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  are the guidelines for deadnaming either trans or non-binary people different from deadnaming in general? i admittedly cannot immediately recall any notable people with deadnames that are neither trans nor non-binary, though i assume the concept of a deadname similarly applies to cis people who have previously identified as trans or non-binary (and may have two or more deadnames), and possibly applies to people who have started a new identity to separate themselves from a previous identity for a reason other than gender identity (such as witnesses relocated due to death threats). dying (talk) 21:52, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• note: since my last comment here,
  • one editor has created a redirect from othername to the de l'horizon article,
  • one has referenced othername as de l'horizon's birth name, and
  • one has added othername to the lead.

i had been hoping for a more definitive answer here to better understand how to proceed in such a situation, as i believe all of these actions would be violations of en wikipedia's policies and guidelines for deadnames, but am not reverting these edits because i do not know if othername is actually a deadname. (one of the edits states that de l'horizon stopped using othername in 2017, but i could not find this stated in the cited source, and the statement also seems to conflict with a program for a literary event in 2020 in which de l'horizon appears to have used both names.) i am quietly pinging the first two editors, Matthiaspaul and ZemanZorg, and will leave a message on the talk page of the third editor (who edited under an ip address) so that they may be made aware of this conversation.

do others here find the current state of the article acceptable?

by the way, i recently realized that there is quite a bit of discussion over de l'horizon on this issue occurring on another wikipedia (which i will not link, but it should not be difficult to find). obviously, a consensus on another wikipedia is not binding on this one, but the views expressed there may help guide the discussion here. interestingly, the discussion references atze schröder, who clearly does not want his real name mentioned on wikipedia, even though it remains in the en wikipedia article. dying (talk) 21:52, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

USE THEY, MENTION NEOPRONOUN

In this Request for Comment, editors discussed how Wikipedia articles should use third-person singular pronouns when referring to article subjects who request that they be called by

noun-self pronouns

but enforce the use of other sorts of neopronouns in articles; (c) to always use the singular "they"; (d) to refer to subjects only by their name; (e) to mention the neopronouns once in the lead but to use the singlular "they" otherwise; (f) to only use neopronouns if the subject does not also use one of the common sets of pronouns; and (h) to use the most common pronouns used in reliable and independent sources. Arguments in this discussion touched on topic including the extent to which of neopronoun use affects article readability/accessibility, the extent to which using (or failing to use) neopronouns shows sufficient respect to the article subjects, and the extent to which Wikipedia should base its style decisions off of the coverage of article subjects given in reliable sources.

A slim minority of participants were in favor of the liberal use of (some form of) neopronouns in Wikipedia articles to refer to article subjects. Some editors argued that "neopronouns" are not actually all that new and that, while potentially jarring to readers, failure to use neopronouns when an article subject requests the use of neopronouns is disrespectful to the article subject. Some editors also expressed a weak preference for using neopronouns—that neopronouns should be used only when a subject requests not to be called by the singular they or any other commons sets of English-language grammatical pronouns—or expressed a preference for using the name of an article subject in lieu of pronouns when the subject requests neopronouns. A few editors expressed that we should simply cover the subject how reliable sources tend to, saying that articles on people who are primarily written about in independent reliable sources using their requested neopronouns should likewise be written about in that way on Wikipedia, while articles on people who are primarily not written about in that manner in independent reliable sources should not be written about in that manner

The vast majority of participants in this RfC generally favored use of the singluar "they" throughout articles on people who take neopronouns (Options C/E). There is broad agreement among the vast majority of editors that the use of neopronouns throughout the text of articles to refer to a person negatively affect the ability of articles to be understood by the general English speaking audience, and that using neopronouns throughout articles is unhelpful to readers. There was substantial disagreement regarding whether or not our manual of style should indicate that we should mention the neopronoun once in the lead (Option E), or if our manual of style should be agnostic as to this point (Option C). Those in favor of mentioning the neopronoun of an article subject in the lead argue that doing so shows respect to the article subject and that this preserves accessibility in the article for readers. Some editors who favor generally mentioning neopronouns in articles (such as Tcr25 and Masem) argue that this should be more flexible than requiring it in the lead prose, as it may it better in other places in an article or better placed as a footnote. Other editors in favor of mentioning neopronouns in an article (such as Hentheden) affirmatively want to place this in the lead rather than leaving it open to lead or body, arguing that failure to specify that these go in the lead would lead to neopronouns being generally buried in the body of articles. Others (such as Szmenderowiecki) argue that mentions in the lead are generally not warranted in the lead of the article and the MOS should not presume that this requires a mention at all.

Consensus on Wikipedia is

consensus can change

, and the result of this RfC should not inhibit future refinement of the Manual of Style.

(non-admin closure)

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Gender identity

 – -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have noticed some discussions about

noun-self pronouns

, so I am starting this RfC for a more comphrensive discussion. The current policy on neopronouns states:

When the subject of the article identifies with

neopronouns, the pronouns should default to singular they

.

Based on previous discussions, I identify some options:

• Option A: Allow all neopronouns
• Option B: Don't use
  noun-self pronouns, use other neopronouns (e, xe, xir, zir etc; see this table of English third-person singular pronouns
  for more)
• Option C: Retain status quo (use singular they)
• Option D: Refer to subjects only by name
• Option E: Mention the neopronouns once in the article lead, default to singular they otherwise
• Option H: Use the pronouns most common in recent reliable and independent sources

Other possible options are welcome.

MSG17 (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• (Summoned by bot)Soft C, as ideally we could just take our cues from RS coverage. However, in the absence of a clear consensus from RS as to how someone is referred to, defaulting to singular they seems like an appropriate fallback. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:58, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E Name the neopronouns once, then use singular they. Readability lowers significantly by using neopronouns for Wikipedia's international, multilingual audience. Using singular they demostrates sufficient respect when the pronouns are also mentioned. Options for going further include developing a pronoun field for the infobox or entering neopronouns in Wikidata. Bluerasberry (talk) 20:59, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C with Option E as second choice (I'd prefer mention in lead to be on a case-by-case basis), as singular they can be used for people regardless of gender. This Wikipedia is written in the English language and as such must use recognized English words and grammar. Neopronouns either are not generally recognized as words or consist of nouns being used in an unrecognized fashion. GENDERID is about using the pronouns that align with a person's gender, and for this English has "he/him/his" for male, "she/her/hers" for female, and "they/them/theirs" for non-binary gender(s). Crossroads ^-talk- 22:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note notified WikiProject LGBT Studies. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC) [reply]
• Option B or A I don't like the status quo of referring to folks who genuinely use neopronouns with they/them pronouns. It feels disrespectful to ignore their choice of pronoun usage by defaulting to they/them in that circumstance. While I agree that in genuine cases, following the pronouns that RS use would be ideal, I think that for most cases of neopronoun use, taking them from the article subject's social media is acceptable per
  WP:ABOUTSELF. For the small number of people who use neopronouns as a joke, eg Blaire White who states that/bitch on her social media profiles, we should handle this in the same way we handle anyone who uses non-neopronouns as a joke (eg Tucker Carlson's Twitter states she/her) and default to whatever current reliable sources use. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:23, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  So what are the limits to self-preference, then?

  Are emoji pronouns acceptable?

  Are words like "tree" a gender?

  If not, why does it fall under GENDERID? If so, are there reliable sources supporting this claim?

  How is identifying as a tree, a bug, a star, etc. any different from trivializing gender identity by identifying as an attack helicopter?

  Was that a case of "genuinely using" neopronouns, or a joke, when he had never said anything about being trans or non-binary and his justification was based on the erroneous claim that "we all come from trees...everyone's a tree"? How would we tell? (Obviously for this thought experiment I meant to assume that the later uses of "he" had not happened.)

  What about if they identify their name as something very unconventional like a symbol? (Incidentally part of the reasoning for that particular symbol was that it combined the male and female symbols; imagine the discussions that would erupt if that had happened today!) Crossroads ^-talk- 23:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Emoji pronouns could be acceptable, though I don't think I've seen them used in practice outside of Tumblr. Are there any BLP subjects you're aware of that use them? If not, then that seems somewhat of a straw-man argument.

  Use of

  noun-self pronouns

  like tree/trees is perfectly valid. Off-wiki I know of a person who uses bee/bees to refer to beeselves. I wouldn't use noun-self pronouns for myself, as I'm perfectly happy with she/her, though I have experimented with they/them in the past. But I also have absolutely no problems using them if a person choses them. As I said before, I think that correct use of pronouns in genuine cases, no matter what they are, is basic self respect.

  As for Keiynan Lonsdale specifically, based on a skim of then contemporary RS (circa 2018), Lonsdale's use of tree/trees seems to have been genuine. I'm not 100% sure what pronouns Lonsdale uses now, but Instagram lists he/him so I'll use that for now. As for how we can tell genuine use from mocking use, well there's a rule of thumb you could apply. What is the subject's stance on LGBT+ issues, and how are they seen by that community as a whole? In the case of Lonsdale, it seems that Lonsdale is supportive of the community and the community is supportive of Lonsdale. Conversely for someone like Tucker Carlson, who regularly publishes anti-LGBT+ viewpoints, it's pretty easy to see that Carlson's use of pronouns are mocking. As for Lonsdale's lack of prior statements on being trans or non-binary, why does that matter? From what I recall of the sources at the time, Lonsdale had recently come out as not heterosexual, and was experimenting with how to describe himself. In an ideal world, he would have the privacy to do that with friends and family, but alas celebrity culture prevents that. In the modern world, pronouns should be things you can try out at will. And when you're undergoing a journey of self-discovery, it takes that sort of experimentation to figure out how best to describe yourself. Even to this day, I don't know if Lonsdale has publicly made any statements about his sexuality beyond not hetero, or any further statements about pronoun use or exploration with gender identity. Images on him over the last couple of years however do suggest, if not confirm, that Lonsdale is at the very least gender nonconforming, and the butterfly dress from a 2019 GQ looks pretty awesome on him. Even if somewhat unpractical.

  Now what that means for us as Wikipedia editors in edge cases where a BLP subject has made an unexpected statement is probably best summarised in

  WP:NORUSH

  . There's no significant harm in waiting a short time period, say weeks or a couple of months, to see how things develop over time. If Lonsdale was still using tree/trees today, then I'd say that 4 years is more than enough time to assume that it's genuine.

  As for the old transphobic attack helicopter thing, the difference there is context. One is a short story, based on a transphobic meme that originated as a copypasta. The other is neopronoun. The former was written to attack and disparage trans and non-binary people, and to belittle the concept of gender identity. The later is mostly, but not always, trans and non-binary individuals finding the words that they feel best fit for themselves.

  The

  within article text. Both of those bits of guidance are somewhat far outside the scope of this RfC. I do not believe that Prince ever changed his legal name during that time. Your choice of language though is interesting What about if they identify their name and quite possibly revealing. A person can change their name, for any reason, at any time. They aren't identifying with a new name, they are just changing it. I think you are right though, if Prince or any other celebrity were to do something similar today, it sadly would very likely become weaponised within the current anti-trans culture war. I think that is more endemic of how much airtime we actually give to the very vocal minority of transphobes and other anti-trans agitators within the Anglosphere. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Regarding emoji pronouns, while notable BLPs don't do this yet as far as I know, this can happen at any point. "Fae" or "tree" pronouns would have not have been around a few years ago, yet here we are.

  You state, Use of noun-self pronouns like tree/trees is perfectly valid. But are there authoritative sources on the English language that support this?

  The reason that calling a woman "he" (cis or trans, and the reverse for men, etc.) is widely considered wrong is because it is considered a rejection of their real, lived gender. I don't see how this rationale applies to "tree" and the like. One could respond that they want it, so we should call them that, end of story, but where does gender and hence GENDERID come in to that? If, say, someone wanted to be referred to with their full first and last name, and never one or the other alone, would we have to honor this?

  With Lonsdale, it's pretty easy to use this as a springboard to think of realistic scenarios where a person was pro-LGBT+, but never said much about trans issues specifically, nor identified as LGBT+, and then does something like that. You mention how are they seen by that community as a whole, but who represents the community? People on Twitter? It was that latter group that pushed us to use "tree" for Lonsdale, but how many LGBT people who don't spend much or any time on Twitter agree that someone calling themselves something like "tree" is a good thing for the community rather than belittling?

  Back to chosen names, it's easy to imagine a scenario like that where it is not a stage name but what they actually say they want their name to be. Legal names aren't really relevant since we do change trans peoples' names regardless of legal changes, per the same guideline now being applied to neopronouns. Ultimately, there must be some limits. Names can be arbitrarily difficult, long, or otherwise unwieldy, so there must be a line in the sand as to what is reasonable. And with pronouns, it's the same - which side of neopronouns does one draw the line?

  I don't mean to single you out personally with many questions, but my main points are that (1) this would be a huge change of nontrivial justification, and (2) regardless of the decision there must be limits to chosen names and pronouns. These issues will come up in any such RfC in the guideline itself - all the GENDERID RfCs have been long and complex. Crossroads ^-talk- 00:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  My understanding is that fae/faer pronouns have been in use for at least a decade now. I'm not sure when the first recorded use of tree/trees was.

  Could you please clarify, when you ask about authoritative sources, are you referring to linguistic descriptivism? Or linguistic prescription? Or do you just mean reliable academic sources?

  I think GENDERID is only truly in play here because with the exception of

  MOS:BIO

  if you prefer.

  who represents the community? We could be here for a decade on that question. But for our purposes, we're best sticking with

  policy and so LGBT+ focused reliable sources; PinkNews, Gay Times, GCN, The Advocate

  , etc, would seem like the logical starting place for assessing the community's opinion on a person.

  Ultimately, there must be some limits. Unless we're somehow responsible for processing legal name changes, I have to ask why must there be limits? In terms of decency, we don't really need to litigate the

  🙂

  has been a valid redirect since 2014, so there's no technical reasons to prevent use of UTF emoji in article titles.

  my main points are that (1) this would be a huge change of nontrivial justification I would argue that it's only non-trivial because people are making it non-trivial. If you run the thought experiment on this RfC finding consensus for B or A, then all you need to do is update the articles for BLPs who use neoprouns. In almost all cases this will mean swapping they/them/themself for whatever neopronoun equivalent they use (eg ze/hir/hirself, fae/faer/faeself, etc). If you're unfamiliar with how to use them, then you can do what any editor is supposed to do when they run into content that is unfamiliar to them, let someone else handle it.

  (2) regardless of the decision there must be limits to chosen names and pronouns. Why? Why must there be limits? Outside of technical limitations of the MediaWiki software this site runs on, why must there be limits? Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Why must there be limits? Why mustn't there be limits? All language has limits because it is a communal thing used to communicate; hence self-expression using it must necessarily be within certain bounds - at minimum I can't speak to people in a personal

  conlang

  and expect to be understood.

  By 'sources on the English language' I mean either set, really. Academic is to be preferred, as always on Wikipedia. I expect that prescriptive sources would say a resounding "no" to neopronouns in the rare cases they are even acknowledged, and that descriptive sources generally don't mention them, but if they do, describe them as 'used' (in the original sense of 'spoken at all', not the colloquial 'my pronouns are' sense of 'want others to use for them') only by a small subset of trans and non-binary people - in other words, akin to an

  AAVE

  .

  As for GENDERID, if it doesn't have to do with gender, then why does a person have a right to expect people to call them "tree" (again, just an example of many possibilities)? What if they said not just their pronouns, but their very being, was a tree, and hence they should not be categorized or referred to as human? And if anyone reading this is thinking 'that sounds like the attack helicopter transphobic meme' - yes, that's exactly the point I'm making - I'm disputing the very point that being trans has anything at all to do with being or wanting to be a tree or being called a tree. I am very much inclined that the latter is improper appropriation from the former. Gender identity is a deep-seated psychological characteristic with empirically-proven importance in life outcomes and behavior - and identity as a tree (etc.) is not. I am obviously aware that some trans people do not agree with me that it is appropriation, but many do, and I know of no reliably-sampled survey showing wide acceptance of such behavior.

  I am of course aware that the last paragraph refers to nounself 'pronouns', and doesn't apply to attempts to coin a new word for a singular non-binary pronoun to replace the occasional ambiguity of singular they. Best of luck to them, but it's pretty clear that those haven't caught on yet, if ever, and the earlier part of my comment still applies in those cases regarding use in Wikipedia. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:23, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  All language has limits because it is a communal thing used to communicate; hence self-expression using it must necessarily be within certain bounds Were that true, language would be a static thing that never evolves. New words would never be created, old words would never fall out of practice. Borrowing words from other languages would be absolutely verboten.

  Descriptive sources do mention neopronouns. As the

  Natural Language Processing

  seems to have a rather thorough citation list of relevant linguistic sources, though I've yet to be able to read through them all. This includes gendered, gender neutral, neo-, nounself, emojiself, numberself, and nameself pronouns, though little to no research has been carried out on the last three.

  I expect that prescriptive sources would say a resounding "no"...and that descriptive sources generally don't mention them, but if they do, describe them as 'used' Expect is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I have to ask, is your opinion on neopronoun use based on actual sources or just what you think the sources say?

  then why does a person have a right to expect people to call them "tree" For the same reason why a person has a right to expect people to call them by their name. Because it's basic civility and politeness. What if they said not just their pronouns, but their very being, was a tree, and hence they should not be categorized or referred to as human? Leaving aside Kanye West or Jaden Smith streams of consciousness, this seems like a strawman. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:39, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Language can change, but does so communally and socially. Something has to be part of it before we can use it and be understood. The 2022 NLP preprint complains that neopronouns are 'ignored'; the authors dislike that, but the way we work, that adds to the evidence that doing so is undue for our purposes.

  Because it's basic civility and politeness. What is civil and polite is in large part a social construct and can differ between cultures. In almost every culture, including my own, it is the height of impoliteness to add to others' cognitive load by expecting them to remember, use, and conjugate nouns like "tree" or even emoji as pronouns rather than the standard pronouns we already have for referring to, but not naming, people. Crossroads ^-talk- 17:26, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  JFC people, write shorter. We're looking at 700+ words here in some of these responses. I don't care how important you think your opinion is, no one is going to read it and we don't expect them to. Valereee (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @

  WP:ABOUTSELF acceptable. For instance, whether we take somebody at their word for their stated age/birthday or where they grew up. We are already required to evaluate whether the fact meets these criteria (and others): the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity. — Bilorv (talk) 16:05, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Comment / Move RfC to
  MOS:GENDERID (which is transcluded here), so AFAICT the appropriate venue is Wikipedia talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography rather than this here. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 00:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Agreed that this is the wrong venue for an RfC (though a fine venue for an exploratory discussion, IMO). Newimpartial (talk) 00:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Also agree this is the wrong venue, though I'd add I'm not sure we even need an RfC at all at this time. Crossroads ^-talk- 00:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Apologies, I mistook the transclusion as being the other way around. If we can move it, that would be great. MSG17 (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Options E, C (and H, which resolves to C in actual practice), D in that order of preference. Trey Maturin, below, puts it well: "stating the chosen neopronoun and then gently using the singular they is a good compromise that offends nobody rational". Options A and B are way out. Agree this is not a proper venue for this RfC. (It has since been moved to a better venue.) PS: I think I can support E.1 below, specifically. I don't see any issues with the wording, though it might be compressable a bit.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:50, 22 October 2022 (UTC); revised 02:55, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C, with inclusion of preferred pronouns to be either a footnote if not a singificant issue, or documented in the body if that has drawn attention. We absolutely should not go as far as using non-standard pronouns in an encyclopedia in regular prose. --Masem (t) 02:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option A, with a second preference for Option B, in accordance with representing nonbinary people's sincere identities and per Sideswipe9th's solid reasoning above. Thatbox (talk) 09:35, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option C It is not the remit of this encyclopedia to re-write the English language. Wikipedia must necessarily be behind the times when it comes to changes to the English language. When scholarly and other high quality reliable sources consistently use neopronouns, we can match their style. Slywriter (talk) 14:10, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Question: what do other sources do? What do e.g. newspapers do when the subjects they report on uses "zir", and what do they do when the subject they report on uses "kittenself"? Is there something in e.g. the AP Stylebook on neopronouns? I'd prefer that Wikipedia follows, not leads, how other sources deal with it. Endwise (talk) 15:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  To partially answer my own question, the AP Stylebook apparently says In general, do not use neopronouns such as xe or zim; they are rarely used and are unrecognizable as words to general audiences. Endwise (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It would seem that the vast majority of neopronoun users also accept at least one other set of pronouns (though not always they/them). At the moment, I'm only aware of 4 Wikipedia biography subjects who explicitly prefer a single set of non-standard pronouns, so prescribing a strict guideline in this case is probably

  WP:CREEP

  . Of those, it seems most common for sources to either respect their pronouns, or refer to them by surname only.

  • Justin Vivian Bond (v/v's/vself) – Wikipedia uses they. A 2014 HuffPo article uses v's surname only.
  • Maia Kobabe (e/em/eir) – Wikipedia uses surname only e/em pronouns corrected 18:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC). In August 2022, Time published an article and subsequent tweet, which described em using Spivak pronouns. Other coverage from around the same time (and currently, Wikipedia's article) refers to em by eir name only.
  • Genesis P-Orridge ("s/he"/"h/er"/"h/erself") – Wikipedia uses they. A. Various publications during h/er hayday [4][5][6] use h/er pronouns, including the New Yorker. Articles in The Guardian and New York Times used she/her.
  • Sassafras Lowrey (ze/hir) – Wikipedia uses they. Most sources I could find [7][8][9] seem to respect hir pronouns, including Vice.

  –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Genesis P-Orridge seems to be the most famous of the bunch, and has pronouns that are the most "recognisable" to a general audience, so I think that's a good example to look at. Here's an entirely unscientific list of the "mainstream" publications (which really means "things I'm familiar with") I can find with a google search:

  • Uses "s/he"/"h/er": New Yorker, Rolling Stone, BBC The Independent, Vulture, NME, Variety, Vice 1
  • Uses they/them: LA Times, NPR, A. V. Club, Vice 2
  • Uses she/her: The Guardian, NYT, Irish Times,
  • Avoids pronouns all together: None that I saw

  These are mostly arts/culture/music-focused publications, which is probably different than sources are in general, and they probably have a narrower (and younger) audience than Wikipedia. But still, it did surprise me how common it was to go with P-Orridge's neopronouns. I think all we can learn from my 20 minutes of wasted time is that Wikipedia wouldn't at all be out of lockstep with modern, mainstream publications if we decided to use neopronouns on some articles. I think there are two competing interests here. To quote from the AP stylebook (who were actually talking about the singular they, but the same applies), it's that neopronouns may be confusing to some readers and amount to a roadblock that stops them from reading further. At the same time, though, efforts to write without pronouns to avoid confusion may make people feel censored or invisible. I'm not sure where I fall on it. Endwise (talk) 14:42, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Option E per Bluerasberry: Name the neo-pronouns once, then use singular they. Speaking as a non-binary person, I consider this to be a reasonable compromise for accessibility. Funcrunch (talk) 18:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E per Bluerasberry/Funcrunch (or C, which seems compatible with E). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:35, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Option E, with some modifications to allow mentioning them in a footnote when first using the singular they. Using neopronouns (especially those other than xe/xem) in articles would significantly compromise readability. For example, let's take the first sentences of Justin Vivian Bond (a singer who uses "h/h'm" neopronouns) and rewrite them with Bond's preferred neopronouns:

  Justin Vivian Bond (born May 9, 1963) is an American singer-songwriter and actor. Described as "the best cabaret artist of [h'r] generation" and a "tornado of art and activism", h first achieved prominence under the pseudonym of Kiki DuRane in the stage duo Kiki and Herb, an act born out of a collaboration with long-time co-star Kenny Mellman.

It would be very difficult to follow the article without getting distracted by these words. Moreover, in cases where a person has two or more preferred neopronouns, we would have to arbitrarily choose which one to use in their article.

Just to be clear, I don't oppose the concept of neopronouns per se, it's just that they don't look "natural", for lack of a better word. Neopronouns are contentious even among transgender and non-binary people, who may think that their widespread use would lead to mockery or a backlash against the LGBT+ community, or that the concept itself has been discredited by those who use it in a sarcastic fashion, like the

Dsuke1998AEOS (talk) 14:45, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

In the sentences quoted above, one could say, for example, "the best cabaret artist of [a] generation" (there's really no ambiguity about which generation is meant, since it can't be anyone else's); likewise, one could say, "Bond first achieved prominence", using the same number of letters as "they". I'd argue that that would be an improvement over the status quo, which is "they" with a footnote — footnotes in the middle of sentences are inevitably awkward.

I'm all for simplification in the pursuit of understanding, but to coin a phrase, we should simplify as far as possible and no further.

talk) 16:50, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Rewording the sentences in order to always avoid pronouns would lead to an outcome very similar to Option D, and this option is in my opinion the less preferable, because it would lead to an endless repetition of the person's name. Having a single footnote after they at least would have the benefit of showing some courtesy to non-binary subjects, while at the same time maintaining readability and accessibility.

Dsuke1998AEOS (talk) 18:01, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• Note: Since four editors (including myself) have already expressed a preference for
  Dsuke1998AEOS (talk) 14:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Option F: Only use neopronouns if the subject does not also use one of the common sets of pronouns. To avoid potential reader confusion, the usage of neopronouns should be noted with an appropriate hatnote/footnote/in-text note before or at the first usage. This option balances the desire to ensure the greatest readability with the need to respect the subject's pronouns.
  With regards to options C, D and E, while singular they or the subject's name can be used for anyone in a generic context, using them when the subject's pronouns are known is still unacceptable. This would be the same as only using they/them pronouns for a trans man who uses he/him pronouns, and for living subjects would violate
  ze/hir pronouns, was first interested in science when ze was 8."). Any hatnote/footnote/in-text mention could link to the Neopronoun article (or a more specific article such as Spivak pronoun if such an article exists for the neopronouns in use). GreenComputer (talk) 15:23, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Option F, per GreenComputer, RoxySaunders and Endwise: Wikipedia wouldn't at all be out of lockstep with modern, mainstream publications if we decided to use neopronouns on some articles. There's a subtle irony in quoting the AP Stylebook's opinion on singular they here, given that construct is regularly used by Wikipedia. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:40, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I've moved this to WT:MOSBIO since there seems to be no objection. Courtesy pings at @
  Dsuke1998AEOS, GreenComputer, and Maddy from Celeste. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Option E.1. I'd like to propose some actual wording here. This incorporates the consensus forming above, and would also acknowledge current best practices regarding they/them and no-pronouns cases:

  Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress" "brother/sister") that reflect the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent

  neopronouns such as ze/hir, use they/them pronouns unless they have a stated objection to that, in which case refer to them without pronouns; explain this in prose or in a footnote on first instance. In all cases where someone uses pronouns other than she/her or he/him, use gender-neutral terms (e.g. "person", "sibling") unless they have expressed a preference otherwise.

  (Changed "waiter/waitress" just because "server" would be a less obvious call-back.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply