Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 254

• (edit conflict) Support as a Daily Mail-esque problem. — pythoncoder  (talk | contribs) 17:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support It is hard to find the border between facts and fiction in this kind of tabloids. Articles are filled with sensational details. Surveys provided by feminist are very informative. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:24, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose To do this is to either assume that editors are idiots, or to treat them that way anyway. Editors are here to make editorial decisions, not to be automated into just nodding past subjective value judgements made by a clique of filter editors.

Yes, the Sun is trash. And our editors can be assumed to either recognise that, or to have a damned good reason to be using it (you can't cover the Falklands Campaign without referencing their

Gotcha

headline).

I'm also concerned at the increasing bias here against UK newspapers. It's common currency that the Daily Mail is banned (

it isn't) Even the Guardian and the Telegraph are getting described in the same terms. Yet Fox News and Russia Today go unchallenged? Andy Dingley (talk

) 19:20, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I responded in the discussion section below. — Newslinger talk 02:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Where do we draw the line? I think a better approach would be for editors to use the best sources available, which in most cases would exclude the Sun. TFD (talk) 01:09, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose If we ban a particular publication from being cited at all we loose the opportunity to highlight their poor coverage of events. IMHO it is much more preferable to allow these sources to be cited and then to provide other sources that demonstrate the contrasts in coverage. This is absolutely a slippery slope. Morgan Leigh | Talk 01:40, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support.
  Previous discussions established that The Sun is at least as unreliable as the Daily Mail
  . For consistency, The Sun should be subject to the same treatment. Three points of clarification:
  1. It's important not to misinterpret this RfC, which is not calling for a "ban" of The Sun. It's proposing an
     shows a message
     to editors who attempt to use The Sun as a source, and asks them if they want to proceed. This RfC would not prevent any editor from citing The Sun as a source.
  2. This RfC asks for The Sun to be deprecated in the same way as the
     primary source
     in the same way.
  3. questionable sources
     , including The Sun, for information on themselves. This RfC doesn't change this.

— Newslinger talk 02:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• It's disingenuous to say that "An edit filter doesn't prevent a source being used". From the Mail, we've seen that this is persistently referred to as "the Daily Mail ban". It's reported by external media as "Wikipedia bans the Daily Mail". More locally, any use of it leads to "discretionary sanction" boxes being posted on your talk page (despite that DS box actually being invalid) and direct threats of blocking from a couple of persistent admins. This is a culture that few editors will persist through, far more than an advisory warning. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:00, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

  To match reliable sources, the word "ban" should be used in article space to describe the Wikipedia community's relationship with the Daily Mail where appropriate. However, this discussion is in project space, and the word "ban" is inconsistent with how the

  discretionary sanctions issue, then that should be corrected and any templates used solely for this purpose should be deleted.​ — Newslinger talk

  11:58, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Here's one of the later ones: October 2017, Request referencing WP:RSN List of banned UK newspapers? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:17, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Although there isn't (or shouldn't be) a DS template specifically for the Daily Mail, repeated attempts to add poorly-sourced content can fall under other DS areas such as BLP or American Politics. –dlthewave ☎ 18:08, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

The hostile warning on my talk page was rooted in Talk:Manny Pacquiao#Bible Quote Where another editor (I hadn't even edited the article) was repeatedly blocked for adding sources [11] from the BBC, Guardian and others, not the Daily Mail. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm now less concerned because the links didn't contain a

discretionary sanctions box regarding the Daily Mail. It's true that there needs to be some sort of written guidance about what deprecation entails. Since there's no guidance, some editors are misinterpreting the 2017 Daily Mail RfC, and this needs to be fixed. However, in the interest of consistency, I'm going to maintain my "support" position unless it becomes clear that the currently active Daily Mail RfC will pass. — Newslinger talk

01:33, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

WP:DEPRECATED now clarifies how deprecation affects sources. If you would like to add some behavioral guidance for editors, please do so. — Newslinger talk

12:28, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support per Newslinger. The sources like The Sun can and should be used (otherwise some users of readers may conclude Wikipedia is a biased resource), however, they should be used with cautions. In connection to that, I think Morgan Leigh, TFD, Andy Dingley should read the above Newslinger's post, because it seems they have misunderstood what deprecation means in this particular case.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I understand exactly what the proposal means. and I agree with Andy Dingley about how discretionary sanctions notices are being misused. Wikipedia is becoming more punitive and combative. It's no wonder editors are fleeing in droves. Morgan Leigh | Talk 21:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Morgan Leigh>, we are always balancing between Scylla of anti-democratism and Charybdis of obscurantism. Yes, redundantly stringent discretionary sanctions may force some users who rely too much on the sources similar to The Sun to leave the project. However, if too much liberty will be given to this type users, the editors who prefer to use American Historical Review, or Science, NY Times may decide to leave the Wikipedia. And I have a feeling that the second scenario would have more negative impact on the project.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:27, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• No-one here is encouraging the use of The Sun, merely encouraging editors to engage more fully in selecting what should be used, rather than relying on automated and rigid controls. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• I am totally not advocating for the use of The Sun. It's shit. What I am advocating for is making Wikipedia more friendly for editors Wikipedia is haemorrhaging editors. I contend it is because there is too much punitive action and not enough encouragement of users. I find it telling that you say the stringent use of discretionary sanctions may force users to leave, because my point is all about force. There is a lot of use of force on Wikipedia nowadays; Let's try to force users to do source checking instead of copy editing, Let's gang up on users we disagree with and call it consensus, Let's use discretionary sanctions to force this type of user to leave. This is the opposite of presuming good intent. It is also lazy. It's way easier to slap a warning notice on a users talk page and hope it will intimidate them into going away than it is to try to work with them to improve their ability to recognise a good source. If we want people to participate we must encourage them, not slap warning notices on their talk pages and label them "this type of user". Don't underestimate how intimidating a discretionary sanctions notice is for a new user. How about deploying a friendly "here's where to find help on recognising reliable sources" notice instead? What kind of source a person uses isn't a good indicator of who will be a good wikipedian. There are plenty of editors who use, and misuse, reliable sources that harass editors. Morgan Leigh | Talk 03:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Morgan Leigh&Andy Dingley, I am totally not advocating for the ban of The Sun. What I am advocating for is making Wikipedia more friendly for the users who want to use more reliable and high quality sources. In my opinion, editors should be allowed to use The Sun and similar sources, however, when they do that, they should be automatically informed that these sources are highly questionable. I agree that Wikipedia should be more friendly, but it should be more friendly towards the editors who are using best quality sources. It is really annoying when a user who takes information from the best quality sources, such as American historical Reviews, has to explain, again and again, that poor quality sources, such as The Sun, should not be treated in the same way as good sources. Therefore, it seems you incorrectly understand the problem: the question is not whether Wikipedia should be more friendly or not, or whether Wikipedia should be more friendly to those who wants to write a good quality content (or, at least, to improve their writing skills), or to those who are pretty satisfied with totally amateurish and superficial editing style.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• when they [cite the Sun], they should be automatically informed that these sources are highly questionable.

Lovely. So how are you going to achieve this? Because when it was last attempted, for the Mail, it turned instead into an invitation for a couple of admins to bully and threaten blocks.

it seems you incorrectly understand the problem Well, that's because we're stupid Sun readers, isn't it, and you think we shouldn't be editing at all. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:27, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

"the editors who prefer to use American Historical Review, or Science, NY Times may decide to leave the Wikipedia" - I find it telling that the editors supporting a blanket ban (and this is what it is) of particular UK-based media are citing US-based media as examples of high-quality reliable sources. Again: just why is that media in a country with a history of robust freedom of the press going back centuries - the UK - is exclusively the target of this kind of blanket-ban? FOARP (talk) 21:49, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support per Newslinger. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support its reputation for unreliability is legendary (in fact at one time it was the trope of bad journalism) (as various satirical names such as the Snu).Slatersteven (talk) 11:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Strong support per this. I can appreciate a counter-argument that The Sun is good for up to date sports results, and that those are pretty reliable - however,
  WP:BLPSOURCES correctly states, "When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources.". And as Newslinger says, this proposal is simply putting up an "are you sure you want to cite the Sun" message - if it's to put the latest football stats and it's the only one online, then you could click "yes I am sure" and do it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)}
  11:34, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support provided that it's of the "are you sure?" variety and not a blanket ban. Comparisons to the Daily Mail are misleading; the Mail has a professional-looking website with the trappings of a legitimate newspaper, so readers (particularly those outside the UK who aren't familiar with its questionable accuracy) understandably don't realise that it's not a credible source and try to cite it. Nobody seeing the wall of tits-and-celebrities that constitutes the Sun website would be in any doubt that it's a ropey tabloid. ‑ 
  Iridescent
  21:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Have you seen the DM website? Its wall of tits-and-celebrities has become known generally (Private Eye) as the "sidebar of shame". Any publication that is seemingly required to use the phrase "peachy derrière" at least twice a day is a long way from a professional-looking website with the trappings of a legitimate newspaper. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Very Strongly Oppose Not just this motion, but the entire concept of blanket-banning sources that are actually media organisations with editors and professional reporters overseen by (and answerable to) a regulator. This appears to be yet another example of people who hate a publication because of its politics trying to get it banned (and let's be honest with ourselves, that's what is being proposed - if you include a DM reference, you get a warning and then another editor automatically comes in and deletes the reference with an edit summary saying "Daily Mail"). We should never have banned the Daily Mail completely either, just covered it with a general policy for tabloids. Meanwhile there's still no consensus on Russia Today, PressTV, China Daily, Global Times, Fox News, etc. not being reliable sources since they all have their partisans on this website. Why is it just UK media sources - that is sources from a country that has a history of a robust freedom of the press going back centuries - that get this treatment? FOARP (talk) 14:43, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Because press freedom and press reliability are not the same thing, and we can see the difference. This is not restricting press freedom in any way.Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

The effect of banning a source (and again, that's what the effect of this will be since that was what the effect was on the Daily Mail) is saying that it won't be included on Wiki which inevitably serves to deprecate that source. It was not justified for the Daily Mail. It is not justified for The Sun. Both are news organisations that also include tabloid content and have politicis that I disagree with. As for why press freedom is relevant, it is relevant because the reliability of the press in countries where the press is government-controlled and government-censored will inevitably be lower since it cannot be independent of government policy. Why, then, is it the media of a country which enjoys robust freedom of the press that gets almost exclusively targeted by these blanket, automated bans? FOARP (talk) 14:58, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe it is because we have freedom of the press, so no one source represents an official (and thus POV pushing) agenda. Maybe it is because we do not worship out press (or press freedom) but rather see it as a privileged (and not a right) to publish a newspaper (or have it respected). Because we can speak our mind without some big brother telling us what to do. It is not about their politics, I have said many times we should ban all tabloid (using the UK definition) journalism, anbd in fact have gone further and said we should ban all press reports as RS until a certain period has elapsed between the report and the event. If "lie papers" what to be taken seriously as sources maybe they need to change their act, rather then expect us to try and shift through reams of lies, decent and gossip to find one reliable fact.Slatersteven (talk) 15:28, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Tabloid journalism =/= everything that appears in a tabloid. Let editors decide what content within a tabloid paper is and is not suitable for use. Let's trust editors rather than blanket-banning things using automated system that promote unthinking obedience. If the piece is "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" then it's clear that you shouldn't just rely on a single report in a tabloid paper to substantiate it. If the article is about

Hydroxyl and you want to use quotes from this DM article, then why the hell shouldn't you? FOARP (talk

) 15:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Because it takes up huge amounts of time on talk pages and articles trying keep out the chaff, time I (and others) are not being paid for. It means that "but its an RS" is not rallying cry to include every bit of dishonest tittle tattle that appears in a newspaper that we then have to fight tooth and claw to keep out. You only have to look at the fact this (and what happened to the Daily Myth) is not in fact a ban and see how much effort has been put into promoting that particular myth here.Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Not being paid for editing Wiki is NOT a valid reason for doing anything, other than not editing wiki because you should focus on your job. Since the only times I've seen DM references being deleted is when it was being used to substantiate something that was already covered in other sources anyway, I'm not sure whether most of the aggressive policing of DM references was necessary anyway, and not just editors choosing to waste their own time in a vendetta against that publication. As for not being a ban, well, it has been treated as exactly that in pretty much every discussion I've seen and that's no surprise when there are automated systems for stopping and deleting DM references. FOARP (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

This is the key issue: there are not enough editors or admins on Wikipedia to keep it running properly. These kinds of bans are being proposed to try to deal with the fallout of this problem. Rather than doing this we should be addressing the cause of the problem. I contend that editors are leaving Wikipedia because it is too punitive and combative. These kinds of bans create that impression. Rather we need to develop tools to help users recognise reliable sources. Wikimedia is rolling in cash, why can't it spend some one developing useful tools? Morgan Leigh | Talk 00:12, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• We should never have banned the Daily Mail completely either We didn't. Although you'd never know that, from how it's handled afterwards. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:50, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

It was basically an enabling act for people who wanted it gone from this site. FOARP (talk) 14:58, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Is The Sun a good source? No. Should it generally be used? No. Should it be banned outright? No. It is better than RT and Press TV for instance. For some items it may be reliable - for instance, it probably is reliable for sourcing page 3 appearances. It probably is reliable for an attributed quote. For most content in the UK there are definitely much better sources, but this doesn't mean that banning this all together is the way to go. Icewhiz (talk) 16:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Well it currently gets only a single use at Page 3. But great to see you taking a more cultured stance here. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support it makes many dubious claims and is a poor source to use, especially for any contentious claims. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 17:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as per the arguments put froward by User:Collect. I do not think we should have effectively banned the DM either. Their record for inacurracy is not particularly shocking. Over the 4 year period since its existance IPSO received 4008 complaints of inaccuracy concerning the DM, 2/3 were rejected 10% were not pursued and there was a breach of rules found in 7 cases or 0.17% of cases, the Sun's figures are similar, 0.2% of 6047 cases. I have never read thes 2 papers as what they have to say does not interest me but I do not like the idea of a vote on banning them for inaccuracy without objective and non anecdotal evidence that shows they should be singled out as exceptional cases. They represent a popular culture that I do not associate myself with but that I respect. Dom from Paris (talk) 18:56, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Strong Support as per the nominator and others. Unreliable UK tabloid, which i am surprised does not already have warning to editors attempting to use it as a reference like the Daily Mail. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 20:18, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppopse per Collect. It is fine to list the Sun on some RS list as a questionable source to be avoided, but not on WP's blacklist. The blacklist should be for sites that should never be used, not even for RSOPINION, unless that site is actually part of the story. That hasn't been demonstrated for the Sun. It's not an RS for fact, but I'm not seeing the issues with its opinion pieces as their was with DM (where we learned they rewrote some opinion pieces), so still a valid RSOPINION work. --Masem (t) 20:34, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't care about public perception, and I see no evidence for publishing fabricated articles, which should be the bar for these bans. The oppose !votes above are convincing. (I am not
  ping me if you want my attention.) wumbolo ^^^
  06:26, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Most people may be distrustful of the Sun, but then again half the people in the West have IQ of below 100 and the wast majority wouldn't be able to calculate an integral or pinpoint the location of Djibouti on the map, so who cares about what these kinds of "people" think?
• Support Primarily because I'm not seeing a lot of compelling reasoning from the oppose !votes so far; there's a lot of "let's not blacklist this website" (something that, per the RFC question's specific wording, isn't being proposed) and "don't treat editors like idiots, even if this source probably should be deprecated because it's trash" (which seems counter-intuitive). As an aside, maybe if this proposal passes we'll get a fun editorial in The Sun complaining about how Wikipedia isn't reliable either, and how Sun journalists have not been allowed cite Wikipedia since such-and-such date (that literally happened with The Daily Mail -- I can fetch the link if anyone needs it). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons listed by Collect. Oppose doesn't mean I (or other editors) think the source is generally reliable but we should use some common sense when evaluating articles from various sources. Do we think the average editors are so stupid as to need this sort of warning before using a source like The Sun? Where does it stop? No, this is something that should only be done in extreme cases. Let the existing policies and guidelines do their work. Springee (talk) 15:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Support based on the arguments brought up by other supporting editors above. livelikemusic talk! 18:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Weak oppose per collect. Given the surveys feminist cites, the case to ban the Sun would be compelling, except it rests on the assumption we were correct to ban the Daily Mail. Like others, I see that as a mistake, and not just due to Collect's slippery slope argument. The DM may be less reliable than the best papers such as the FT, but I don't see the difference as that great. My mother takes the DM & I often read a few articles when I visit; many of them seem perfectly accurate. I also regularly read FT, and occasionally find statements which I know to be false. Granted, FT is overall more reliable, hence it's the source I most frequently add to articles. But the difference doesn't seem great enough to warrant banning DM. Some of you don't like what I'm saying and I can hear your thoughts. "Even if you're right about the FT vs DM Feyd, which we doubt, even FT is only a newspaper. We like to use much more reliable sources here on Wikipedia." Sadly, sources such as 'systemic reviews', listed at the very top of the hierarchy suggested by guidelines like WP:MEDS are in fact less reliable than FT. (See for example The Mass Production of Redundant, Misleading, and Conflicted Systematic Reviews and Meta-analyses by arguably the world's most respected authority on the subject, John Ioannidis Much of the top tier sources Wikipedians value so highly are now near worthless in terms of accurately reflecting knowledge, as they say exactly what Biotech paymasters want them to say.).

Like Accademia at large, Wikipedia is in several ways over a decade behind rest of world. Probably most know that this past 10 years, there has been a substantial decline in the trust regular people have in experts. What you might not know is that it's not just the masses who have lost faith– the top 0.001% have too, e.g. the policy making elite. 15 years ago, if an expert was called to address a HoC committee and started talking about the scientific consensus or 'the literature', that would have been fine. Nowadays, (with some exceptions like global warming), we just humour the person, raise a few eye brows and make sure they don't get invited again. At least in my admittedly limited experience, instead of paying attention to things like meta analyses or those who still have faith in them, policy makers instead listen to individuals who we trust to provide an objective summary. Essentially scientists of marked integrity and intelligence, as close to someone like good Ioannidis as possible.

Just in case someone with rare discernment reads the above and takes it to heart, on a balancing note, it's not as bad as it sounds. MEDS may be flawed, but a bad tool is often better than none. Despite the millions Biotech spends each year on distorting science & it's public perception, the fact is massive reductions in infant mortality and relative flourishing of human life in many parts of the world would have been impossible without biotech. Also, as has long been the case with global warming, the best PR agencies are increasingly refusing to work for Biotech, so they only get 2nd rankers at best. They may succeed in getting hundreds of our science articles to say exactly what biotech firms want them to. But in the wider info wars theatre, it doesn't really matter. The poor shrills aren't even fighting with the right weapons. Hence for example even conservative administrations banning various pesticides this past year, despite the apparent mainstream scientific consensus that they are relatively safe. Probably the more serious consequence of Wikipedia's unsophisticated views on reliability is the way it empowers overzealous quality control types to waltz about the Wiki undoing hours of other peoples hard work with a flick of the revert button. And then if the other editor objects, slapping unwarranted DS tags on their talk page, and using a weaponised concept of Fringe to get them permabanned. I guess the point Im getting to is to echo Andy Dingley's point about editors not being idiots. If we want to be the best possible encyclopaedia we must rely partly on editorial discretion, not solely on a flawed hierarchy of sources. All that said, only opposing weakly as there's quite a bit of sense in feminists proposals and the arguments from Ritchie and other supporters. FeydHuxtable (talk) 18:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• OPPOSE. Why? There is no case made here of a shown need or purpose. Nor a basis for this in policy, guidance, evidence, or organised approach. This just looks like one of these proposals randomly made by someone on a whim. I don’t see any mention of actual problems or links to past RS/N talks. Looks like no need, no benefit, and no reputable approach so ... do not do it. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:50, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per
  WP:CREEP. All newspapers are much the same as, nowadays, they all tend to copy the same stories from each other. Having a blacklist of this sort is not a sensible approach because it would either have to be unworkably immense or absurdly arbitrary. For uncontroversial facts such as the result of a football match or the director of a movie, The Sun would be reasonably reliable and we shouldn't discourage such use when so many periodicals are putting up pay-walls. Andrew D. (talk
  ) 17:11, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support lets endorse the popular decision by the City of Liverpool, and the nomination by OP. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 16:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose This is the same slippery slope that people warned about in the original DM ban discussion. Since that we've had Daily Mail, Breitbart, an attempt on the Daily Express now the Sun in the firing line to go on the naughty list. There is a pattern emerging and I don't like the look of it because it does give the appearance that this is more of a push to remove politically right leaning sources from Wikipedia. I don't see a good argument to ban the Sun here, just a load of
  WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk
  ) 21:15, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

  I mean, if the Express told me that the European Union flag was blue, I'd go on europa.eu just to double check. Sceptre (talk) 17:11, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support Shouldn't be using a tabloid for this stuff. ^Semi_Hypercube ✎ 00:54, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support deprecation: The Sun is in a class of its own in that an entire city has boycotted it for thirty years because it's unreliable trash. Sceptre (talk) 17:11, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support Let's hope the TS won't go down the way of Darth Mail and post something about only 100 out of 30M editors "voting" to ban it. ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 22:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Do we need a RfC for every sensational, untrustworthy and primarily-used-for-POV-content tabloids?
  T/C
  ) 01:53, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support: The S*n has a long-standing reputation for printing falsehoods and lies, most notably following the Hillsborough disaster. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 02:35, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support I don't like the newspaper, and one good usage of it is to wipe the place where the sun doesn't shine, if you are really that desperate. But onto serious and objective matters: this 'newspaper' has never been reliable, has published falsehoods throughout its history, and continues to do so. talk to !dave 12:15, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. It's safe to say that The Sun is not a source we should be using. It's barely better than supermarket tabloids by now. Guy (Help!) 16:46, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
• Strong support The Sun cannot be regarded as a reliable source, it has published falsehoods as headlines. For example: "FREDDY STARR ATE MY HAMSTER" - see The Guardian and The Telegraph as sources for Max Clifford planting the story. Autarch (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose ban of The Sun, a major British newspaper - as cited elsewhere, "The UK has amongst the world’s strictest libel laws and the Daily Mail also is required to follow the IPSO Editors' Code of conduct with risk of enforcements actions for breaches." It is beyond nonsensical to ban one of the major news sources of the highly regulated and litigious UK media world, not to mention the
  WP:CREEP issues. XavierItzm (talk
  ) 22:59, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support and Comment Comment: notice how many of the oppose !votes clearly indicate that they knee-jerk oppose any edit filter being put in place to warn editors attempting to use any source as a reference? This would imply that they oppose such an edit filter for Infowars or The Onion. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose It is a major daily in a country famed for its feisty and free press, a country, I hasten to add, that is also famed for the highly partisan nature of its press. I know of no newspaper that has not published untruths, but singling out a major, national daily is highly problematic.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The Sun's circulation or politics is irrelevant here, regarding numbers of readers ~ a YouTube personality can have a Trillion followers ~ it does not make them any more reliable as a source. The question is the Sun a good reliable source for articles in Wikipedia, and the answer to that is simply No . The second point ~ It is wrong to single out the Sun. The Answer is ... No, we are already treating the Daily Mail the same and what we should do is ... go on to depreciate with similar edit filters all other substandard dodgy unreliable sources, including the Daily Express and The Daily Star and similar news sources in print, on the web and in the broadcast media around the world the same. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 19:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose: The general tendency to ban sources is clearly politically motivated and deleterious. Based on OP feminist's change of position, I have decided to weigh in against this "mise au ban". — 🍣 SashiRolls ^{t · c} 00:33, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Can we leave baseless accusations of political motivations of other editors out of this. This thread about the tabloid The Sun is on the **RELIABLE SOURCES** noticeboard, hint we are considering the The Sun's **RELIABILITY** not its politics.

The are more than enough excellent high quality right of center new sources to serve Wikipedia, we do not need help from a ~

"a style of journalism that emphasizes sensational crime stories, gossip columns about celebrities and sports stars, ... junk food news, and astrology". ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 15:58, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

The allegation of political bias is not "baseless", I have seen at least two bases for it:

1) Thus far the only newspaper (i.e., not a conspiracy theory outlet like InfoWars) to have been banned in this fashion is the Daily Mail - a prominent right-wing newspaper - despite arguably worse behaviour from other tabloids (especially the Daily Mirror's fabrication of pictures of British soldiers abusing Iraqi detainees and publishing this on the front page - if you think this too long ago then consider the people citing the 1989 Hillsborough coverage above as a ban-reason). The only proposals currently being discussed are also in relation to right-wing newspapers. This is particularly notable on the perennial sources list where the only UK tabloid not to be general deprecated is

The Daily Mirror

, a prominent left-wing tabloid.

2) The visible anger towards these publications from editors, the invocation of nick-names for them common in left-wing circles (e.g., "The S*n") and the argument raised in this discussion by the nominator that the "bias" (presumably a right-wing "bias") of The Sun is a valid ground for it being banned.

I don't think the above things are simply the products of my imagination. I even understand the anger directed at the Sun - I too have refused to read it since Hillsborough since I am a Liverpool fan - but I can see the difference between my personal choice not to read it and an automated ban compelling everyone else never to cite it for even non-BLP/uncontroversial subject matter. FOARP (talk) 12:48, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

The claim it's "politics" is baseless. The Times has the same publisher and politics as The Sun. We accept The Times because it's a newspaper of record, knows it, and comports itself like one. We don't accept The Sun because it's tabloid trash full of made-up rubbish. The Daily Mail wants to be treated like a newspaper of record, but behaves like tabloid trash and fills itself with made-up rubbish. I suggest that continuing to make personal attacks on editors who disagree with you is exceedingly unlikely to convince them - David Gerard (talk) 16:34, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

The nomination itself states that the Sun is "biased" (i.e., politically, since this is stated in addition to any concerns about accuracy/trustworthiness) and this is a reason for banning it, so this is hardly a stretched point or an insult. The Times is not the relevant comparison as it is not a tabloid. The Daily Mirror is, since it is one. FOARP (talk) 19:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

• Nay In the same matter of the Daily Mail, it should not. Saturnalia0 (talk) 03:40, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per arguments of Collect and FOARP. Whilst guidelines as to why UK tabloids are not the best sources generally - and should be excluded when content concerns contentious BLP claims, medical claims etc, would be useful, I am not persuaded that banning sources we don't like "one by one" is the best way forward. The reasons we often don't like these sources are not simply/mainly because they are more likely to be factually wrong, but also because 'better' sources are more likely to give coherent background info and infinitely less likely to 'embellish' with 'human interest' details (ie soap opera) or to phrase in such a way to trivialise the subject - ie the values of 'better' sources are closer to WP's own - regardless of their political leaning. Pincrete (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Let editors use their judgement in individual cases about whether it's reliable enough in individual topics / suitable for use as a reference. I'm no fan of the newspaper, but a blanket ban is not appropriate (and regardless of the addendum about how it would only be a warning, the daily mail one turned into a blanket ban with removal from articles without consideration of its reliability in that case). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 06:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - while using The Sun obviously requires editor caution, I find such deprecation excessive for a major newspaper.--Staberinde (talk) 18:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support - I don't encounter references cited to fake news reposts in The Sun as much as those w.r.t. Daily Mail, though I have removed on occasions nonsense cited to The Sun from Wikipedia. Whatever the IPSOS people are supposed to be doing, they could do a better job. To those outraged because of the UK's freedom of press, libel laws, etc., I grant that the UK has some of the best newspapers in the world. The flip side is that it also has some of the world's most read tabloids, and sadly they're just as trashy as any other country's. Daß Wölf 14:45, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - slippery slope, if we ban/deprecate the Sun as "almost as bad as" the Daily Mail, we will soon be banning/deprecating other newspapers as "almost as bad as" the Sun, and so forth. Also note that the person making the proposal no longer supports it. --GRuban (talk) 19:43, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support as per the Daily Mail. If information that can be sourced to the Sun can be valuable to the encyclopaedia, it will be possible to find it elsewhere. In the case that it cannot be, strong discouragement is appropriate, and this solution would mean that the Sun would be treated with a heightened caution that would serve the encyclopaedia. Ralbegen (talk) 12:34, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
• Mu. It is impossible for me to vote for these silly restrictions on The Sun, but I have also long had the impression that the Daily Mail is better than The Sun. The Mail really has a commendable Wikipedian attitude in some of its articles, collecting data from various sources without a lot of filtering in a sort of Pliny The Elder approach, which only gets them, ironically, bitter catcalls that they ought to be banned as "plagiarists" from a certain lobby here. The Sun would rarely be accused of comparable avidity for the facts. Wnt (talk) 16:01, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support per Newslinger and per feminist's original comment. All too often, The Sun is an opinion piece masquerading as a newspaper. Zazpot (talk) 17:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Political bias hasn't been treated as a reason for blanket-deprecation and filtering before. Why should it be treated so now? FOARP (talk) 19:49, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

@FOARP: don't create straw men, please. Zazpot (talk) 20:11, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

You're saying that political bias is a reason to support blanket-deprecation and automated filtering of the Sun ("All too often, The Sun is an opinion piece masquerading as a newspaper" - i.e., it inserts opinion into news-stories, presumably of a political kind since the content of opinion pages is political opinion) FOARP (talk) 21:42, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

As I already pointed out, your claims are obvious nonsense. The Times and The Sun have the same publisher and the same politics; but The Times is a newspaper of record, so we accept it, and The Sun is tabloid trash, so we don't. You've got some

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT going on here - David Gerard (talk

) 23:59, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

1) No, the Times and the Sun do not have the same politics, just look at their respective positions on Brexit. 2) You also appear to be ignoring my response - the Times is a broadsheet and therefore not a relevant comparison since it would be near-impossible to propose this kind of blocking for it, The Mirror is a tabloid, and so it a relevant comparison since, other than being left-wing, it is in every respect similar to the Daily Mail/Sun. FOARP (talk) 11:10, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. When compared to the DM, I think the Daily Mirror looks quite cheap. The Daily Mail is like a tabloid on steroids. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:15, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support Most the oppose comments already deprecate The Sun by saying it's not a good source (assuming that people know what deprecate means). So, yes, it makes sense to deprecate it by telling editors that in a filter. See also,
  WP:BESTSOURCES -- it's rather silly not to deprecate The Sun, as the common sense saying goes, 'garbage in garbage out' and with something like this source, although Wikipedia can never itself be a reliable source, we still owe it to readers to do best, not lazy and stupid -- if you can't convince reasonable people it's gotta be The Sun, just find something worthwhile. Alanscottwalker (talk
  ) 21:52, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Support - the Sun should absolutely not be used for citations in an encyclopedic setting, given their track record for poor journalistic standards. As far as I am concerned, their appalling treatment of the
  reliable source, and they haven't improved since, as they continue to publish nonsense. In my view, the paper is less trustworthy than the Mail, and that is saying something. A tabloid rag, should be nowhere near an encyclopedia. Stormy clouds (talk
  ) 13:20, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support per above. I don't see the evidence that this source is reliable for Wikipedia purposes. There is a lot of better journalism out there.
  talk
  ) 04:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - Personally I don't use The Sun here anymore - Whilst it has issues it's not nearly as bad as The Daily Mail and I feel blacklisting it is excessive, IMHO it's use would come down to common sense .... For something medical related you wouldn't use it but if a BLP has won something you may use it if nothing better or else is available. –Davey2010 ^{Merry Christmas / Happy New Year} 14:54, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (The Sun)

• Are there any newspapers in England other than the
  π, ν
  ) 17:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Those two don't typically call themselves "of London" or "Manchester" any more, but there are obviously also The Sunday Times and the Financial Times. To those one would have to add at least The Independent and The Observer, and usually also the Daily Express and the Evening Standard. There is no good reason why most of the UK's regional newspapers should not be considered reliable, including of course, for example the South Wales Argus and The Herald (Glasgow) (although not published in England), along with very many more. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• @Andy Dingley: So far, there are 3 other publications that have been deprecated in the same way as the Daily Mail. They are: Breitbart News (RfC), InfoWars (RfC), and Occupy Democrats (RfC). A deprecation for WorldNetDaily is currently under discussion. Aside from the Daily Mail, all of the other deprecations are for publications based in the US, so I don't really see an anti-UK bias here.

Also,

contested repeatedly, but there was never consensus to deprecate it, and there also hasn't been an uninterrupted RfC on Fox News since the 2010 one. If you or any other editor have concerns about Fox News or RT (Russia Today), any editor is welcome to start new discussions or RfCs on these sources. — Newslinger talk

02:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

So you're conflating The Sun with Infowars? Even for The Sun that's excessive! More reasonable comparisons would be to equate the Sunday Sport with the Weekly World News and Metro with USA Today. None of these are good, but they're not InfoWars. I can't think of a UK equivalent to InfoWars, something that only exists to push a single agenda, more than simply being poor and low-brow journalism. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:04, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

The closest British equivalent to Infowars I can think of is Britain First's Facebook page (or has it been deleted now)? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:41, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Where did this "the UK media is unreliable" thing come from amongst (mainly) US-based editors? I mean, honestly.... And yes this is an anti-UK thing since this is our long-established print-media that is being attacked, not random conspiracy theory websites without real reporters, editors etc. like Breitbart and InfoWars. FOARP (talk) 21:20, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not conflating

WP:SNOW closure.​ — Newslinger talk

11:58, 2 December 2018 (UTC)