Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 156

Collect, I reverted one of those text deletions that you mention and, then, I was rereverted and told I should go find better sources. I thought it was BRD: boldly edit, revert, then discuss the edit....not boldly edit, revert, revert the reverter and then tell the reverter to go get better sources and not revert again. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:37, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

bullying. So far, the consensus in this thread is that a newspaper in a tabloid format is no different from a newspaper in another format, therefore no connection should be made between the format of a newspaper and its reliability. Hearfourmewesique (talk

)

So, which part of this policy is troubling you: ::Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources.?

You don't seem to understand that the sources you are continually reinserting into the

talk

20:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

No, it's you who doesn't seem to understand that these are merely

playing dead. Hearfourmewesique (talk

) 03:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

In Britain, "tabloid" has acquired a particular meaning, independent of its physical format, which basically means a lowbrow mass market form of journalism, with a particular focus on celebrities (in which fact checking and lack of bias are strictly optional), and

Please follow the normal recommendations of this forum and explain what is being sourced from where - concrete cases. Trying to make general rules on this subject is not the right approach. People are just talking past each other.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:16, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think anyone was giving general rules - I certainly wasn't as I gave two counter-examples. It is useful to mention a summary, because people can search for keywords like "The Sun" and "Daily Mail" up front on RSN, without needing to necessarily start a discussion. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Everything above is about the general concept of tabloid, which as has been pointed out, can mean different things anyway. But the general answer to the general question is that yes we can use tabloid sources, sometimes. So to have any practical discussion, we need to actually talk about real details. What source is being used to say what?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Quite. Part of the problem here is a baby/bathwater one. Though certainly many of the British tabloids do run exaggerated or misleading stories at times, they also run huge numbers of perfectly accurate stories, and for some topics (e.g. sports and pop culture) may be more detailed and useful sources than the more 'respectable' news outlets. Barnabypage (talk) 09:27, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Can we please remember that policy does not say "tabloids", it says "

talk

) 16:07, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I think context matters too. It's hard to imagine how XBIZ and AVN (magazine) would not be classified as tabloid journalism given their nature, but for most porn topics there's usually nothing better, except in the case of the most famous performers. Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:19, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Same thing: to see if something is tabloid journalism, we need to discuss context, real examples. BTW the discussion above makes it hard to claim that Hillbillyholiday81 does not understand the distinction about journalism, and so such claims should not be used to dismiss their concern. It is simply hard to say anything about the claim unless we may discuss real cases, with context.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this one a reliable source?

Arnaiz-Villena, A.; Gomez-Casado, E.; Martinez-Laso, J. (2002). "Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective". Tissue Antigens 60 (2): 111–121. doi:10.1034/j.1399-0039.2002.600201.x

The work of principal author, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, was criticized, but the article in question was not retracted. It's not being cited in support of anything relevant to controversies.Cavann (talk) 22:50, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

This is for use at

WP:PRIMARY, it hasn't been cited that much, and the primary author is controversial. There's also a red flag in that Arnaiz-Villena is publishing in Tissue Antigens while the other cites in that section are to J Human Genetics, J Physical Anthropology, Antiquity, etc. Given that we already have better citations in place, why include it? Lesser Cartographies (talk

) 00:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The editor who removed the source also asked for Good Article Reassessment Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Turkish_people/1. It was more needed for this section Turkish_people#Prehistory.2C_Ancient_era_and_Early_Middle_Ages (see diff which was reverted: [27]) Cavann (talk) 00:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The first paragraph of that version of Prehistory has four cites to the Arnaiz-Villena paper. I'll also note that the Yardumian (2011) paper has only been cited once and is used three times in the paragraph. I think the question of

undue weight needs to be addressed first. If these two papers are within the mainstream opinion in this field then we can probably dig up some better cites. Lesser Cartographies (talk

) 00:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I would say they are, but I don't think this particular topic gathers that much attention. Yardumian (2011) is a review study. I guess I can find more sources within that. Cavann (talk) 00:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The claim that "Modern Turks descend primarily from ancient Anatolians" is not mainstream. No scientist worth his salt will make such a claim, because it is impossible to prove. Only kooks like Arnaiz-Villena would make such a claim. As far as I can tell, the consensus among the literature is as follows: 1) Anatolia as a land bridge, has been subject to numerous populations movements, and its genetic makeup is highly complex and varied, and includes neighboring peoples (Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, etc..), as well as Bronze populations and Central Asian tribes, 2) The genetic impact of the Central Asian Turkic tribes was small because Anatolia already had a large population (but this population was itself highly diverse and simply "ancient Anatolians"), and 3) Modern Turks are closer to Middle Eastern and Balkan populations genetically than to Central Asian populations. However, stretching that to mean "modern Turks primarily descend from ancient Anatolian populations", is well, a stretch, and is not to be found within the literature.

talk

) 02:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

It is also well-sourced that several million Balkan Muslims and Caucasus Muslims settled in Anatolia during the 19th and early 20th centuries. The genetic makeup up of modern Turkey is thus highly diverse, now that is amainstream claim. Not that the modern Turks are lineal descendants of the Bronze Age populations.

talk

) 02:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I would roughly agree with your number 1, 2, and 3 assessments. That's why the article does not simply say "modern Turks primarily descend from ancient Anatolian populations." In case you did not know, if you are using quotes, it usually has to match something. The article says: "Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times.j[›][71][72][73] Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups,[68]k[›][74][75][76] but their ancestry includes neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples.[69]" Moreover, other sources talk about paleolithic and neolithic populations too, so it is not just "kooks like Arnaiz-Villena." Cavann (talk) 19:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Just to add, the author seems to have a history of controversial articles. Some of his articles have even gotten him fired from journal editorial boards for a topic very similar one here. I'd be VERY reluctant to call this a RS. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

He was not fired, the article was retracted. And controversy about Antonio Arnaiz-Villena has nothing to do with his research on Turkish people. The articles I'm cited were also not retracted. Stop making up outright inaccuracies.Cavann (talk) 18:12, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

2002 is not very recent in this field, and we do not have to use such a source if there is something "redflag" about it. OTOH I think that just claiming continuity from ancient Anatolians is not all that shocking? Nor can we really justify deleting reference to "primary" research articles in the human genetics field if they are important. (There is very little secondary literature in that field which is up to date. Attempts to rely on it always lead to strange results.) What is relevant:

• It sounds like the author is controversial.
• We should cautiously check to make sure this is not widely cited before deciding not to use it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Another article by the same principal author (this citation was also deleted from the Turkish people article), [28] has been cited 51 times. Also, the principal author is controversial on some topics, but not this one (ie: Turkish people), and the article has 10 more co-authors! Def does not look fringe. I had forgotten to include this one on my original post that started the thread. Cavann (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion about the use of this source, being too lazy to investigate it. I just want to say that there is nothing "red flag" about publishing in a different journal from other authors. In fact it is a normal phenomenon across all areas of scholarship. Zero^talk 09:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

It is a reliable source. However, whether or not it meets

WP:WEIGHT is a separate issue. It is better to use secondary sources that explain what weight academics have given to the report. TFD (talk

) 13:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

We have Cavalli Sforza's book, The History and Geography of Human Genes, but it is not detailed enough about a specific ethnicity, since it's about the entire world. I can have another look tho. Cavann (talk) 19:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Another question: We have Yardumian et al (2011). And it's a review article, which is good. But it has been cited only once, prolly due to the fact that this is not a very popular topic. It is in line with other sources, but in a lil more layperson terms. For example, other sources are talking about neolithic or paleolithic populations, or are talking about backgrounds of each haplogroups separately. Would the low citation number be controversial?

Yardumian, A.; Yardumian, T. G. (2011). "Who Are the Anatolian Turks?". Anthropology & Archeology of Eurasia 50: 6–42. doi:10.2753/AAE1061-1959500101

Cavann (talk) 19:21, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

That's why the article says: "Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times.j[›][71][72][73] Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups,[68]k[›][74][75][76] but their ancestry includes neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples.[69]"

How did you get solely from that? Cavann (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The problem here is that the word primarily which does not reflect what the sources say. Yardumian, who may have said this, is only cited once. If were going to talk about the descendents of Turks, we need to incorporate ALL cultures and ethnic identities they have descended from, including central Asian hordes and Balkan peoples, if of course academic literature supports this. The issue now is that the literature may not support such claims and that genetic makeup has become interchangeable with the word "descendents". Anyhow, I sent the article to page-protection and I think a RFC is definitely needed on this issue. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yardumian et al. is not the only one saying this. However, I'm not opposed to adding Roman and Byzantine era populations. Than it would be perfectly in line with all sources, including Cavalli Sforza's book, "The History and Geography of Human Genes." Cavann (talk) 22:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

No...central Asian hordes as well. Stop being so reluctant as to mentioning that Turks invaded and conquered. Did those who came from central Asia to Anatolia in the 11th century not have genes? Did they not Turkify the native population? If you want to talk about such scientific genetic prophesies of these ever-so controversial "academics", I propose you go add this to the genetic history section under a given context. I think the RfC should be solely provided for that purpose. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

"central Asian hordes" (!) are already there (Turkic people). This is the 3rd time I'm quoting this. Is anyone even reading the article? "Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times.j[›][71][72][73] Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups,[68]k[›][74][75][76] but their ancestry includes neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples.[69]" This is what Cavalli Sforza says [[29]]. Cavann (talk) 22:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Again, the sentence includes the word "primarily". You're claiming ancestry as a totally different social event by using the word "but". Therefore, ancestry should be removed and instead the sentence should use the word "in part" or "partially" while considering central Asian hordes or Turkic peoples for that matter. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Take it to Cavalli Sforza and journal articles [30] if you disagree with their conclusions. I will stop clogging the noticeboard with this discussion. Cavann (talk) 22:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

No one here is disagreeing with anything. The only thing I disagree with is the terminology used in the article. I and others have already mentioned what terminology we are seeking a compromise for and you are still very reluctant to point out that central Asian hordes/Turkic nomadic tribes are also part of what you call "descendency" of the modern Turk. Therefore, as I and other have said already, your attempts of rejecting this notion is pushing this discussion overboard and will get you nowhere since YOU are the only person you stands for the current terminology. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand what part of "but their ancestry includes neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples" you are not getting. Also, "No one here is disagreeing with anything" is quite nonsensical, since what you are suggesting (some sort of equivalency between indigenous and Turkic) is contrary to results of cited sources. Actually, that is something NO source suggests. Please remember WP:verifiability. You can't simply add material cause you feel like it.Cavann (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I guess I need to set an example of what the sentence should be like:

I wonder if

Greek Orthodox Constantinople :). Povopoulos (talk

) 15:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I also wonder where you suddenly appeared from. --

^talk

16:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

It may or may not be a perfect sentence. Would need a second opinion in terms of its effectiveness of wording and terminology, but I'm just trying to convey the general idea of what were trying to say here. Proudbolsahye (talk) 03:24, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

That sorta equivalency is not in line with ANY of the sources. Eg, Hodoğlugil et al says only 9-15% is Central Asian [31].

As I said, you cannot just make up "terminology," especially considering you seem to be unaware of what any of the sources are saying.Cavann (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

@Cavann. Unfortunately Cavalli Sforza is way out of date. If Wikipedia has to use only out of date materials we come into conflict with NPOV because we distort our reporting of reality. This dilemma has come up many times concerning human genetics. My point: we do need to use research articles if we report this field properly. OTOH, it does appear that this discussion is really more about whether the word primarily should be removed?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:37, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster. There are other sources too: newer journal articles: [32] (5 of em here) and other ones like [33], which are in line with Cavalli Sforza. I'm using Cavalli Sforza too, because it's a secondary source (a book).Cavann (talk) 18:02, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Are these sources reliable?

The above discussion got too long. Just to summarize, I would like to use these 3 sources in addition to other sources. Are they reliable: [34] [35] [36] ? Cavann (talk) 20:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

No...Arnaiz-Villena A. got fired from his job because over highly controversial claims over the same topics we are discussing here. We have already pointed this out in the beginning. Yardumian is only cited once. We already pointed that out as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The news article says his article was retracted. Where does it say he "got fired from his job"? You are also aware that the retracted article was about research on Jews and Palestinians, and has nothing to do with his work on Turkish people? Cavann (talk) 21:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Fyi, he got fired because he said various things about modern history like calling Israelis "colonists"... it wasn't about genetics at all. --

talk

) 22:16, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

His findings regarding genes were presented in a highly politicized manner which got him fired. Whos to say his research regarding Turkish genes is any different. He is a very controversial researcher in his field and thus not reliable. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

On

I would personally avoid citing experts who disagree with my point of view. I would discredit their sources to prevent their use on wikipedia by doing ad hominem to the authors. Povopoulos (talk) 14:55, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The author is clearly controversial. Come back with a better argument. --

^talk

16:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

ePodunk[37] "provides in-depth information about more than 46,000 communities around the country". It is owned by

As an example, it is being used in

talk

) 14:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

It does if you know how to use the census site. Here it clearly states that there were 9,807 Haitians in North Miami Beach city, Florida. Here it states there were 1,446 Colombians. No idea if or how ePodunk works (indeed, the valid reliable source SHOULD BE the Census.gov site, even if ePodunk were compiling from that site, the original data is better from the original source). But on the question of whether or not the Census has data on the number of Haitians and Columbians in N. Miami Beach, it certainly does. --Jayron32 14:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks and sorry if I don't understand how to use the census site. I couldn't find anything about Haitians though from your link, I'm clearly still doing something wrong. It will be interesting to compare the ePodunk numbers with the census.

talk

) 15:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry. Apparently, you can't link to the URL directly to get the correct link. Apparently the database calls are generated in a way that can't be copy-pasted from the URL. Sorry about that. Here's how I got the data: From http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/nav/jsf/pages/index.xhtml the main American Factfinder site, you click "Advanced search - Show me all" then on the next menu, under "item 1" click the radio button for "Race/ancetry" and then as you start to type "Haitian" it brings up a tooltip that lets you select "581- Haitian (336-359)" Select that. Under the other box, start to type "North Miami Beach" and likewise it brings up a tooltip that lets you select the exact name of the city. Select that, then select "search" and then on the next screen, you'll have like hundreds of "products" that have those values in them. About 5 options down is B01003 "Total Population" Click that blue link, and you get a page that gives you the value you're looking for, in this case the total population of Haitians living in North Miami Beach. So the data exists, and can be gotten manual, or for anyone smart enough, a program can be wrtiten to cull the information from the database automagically. ePodunk may have done this, for all I know. But the data should really be cited to the horses mouth, as it were. --Jayron32 16:21, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

And Jayron and Doug have shown why I have in the past used ePodunk as a source (along with the US Census) as sources. When I used to use the US Census some editors had shown annoyance that they didn't know how to use the census website, which is very common, as Jayron shows above the steps can take awhile to explain. By sourcing to BOTH websites I was able to have the numbers shown quite quickly at epodunk but then also have the US census fact finder back it up. Perhaps some place we should have the discussion on how to source to the US census when you are actually listing a url to what is really no more than a fancy app that requires you to fill in fields to get the info you're looking for. Technically if I wanted to list that there were 100,000 Haitians in New York (made up number) I don't need a url at all, I can source the US census and require anyone who challenges to do the work to disprove it before they can mess with the numbers. URLs are not required. At least with epodunk we have a functioning url that gives the numbers in a handy immediate way that may be quite useful to our readers, and really we edit for our user's convenience, not our own fact checking convenience.Camelbinky (talk) 19:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

If we can trust the "app" then I suppose the situation might be one like how we use google books as "convenience links"? (I also see people using Amazon previews sometimes.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:51, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The site http://digitaldreamdoor.com appears to be a blog, hobby or vanity site. http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/about_us_ddd.html seems to support that. If that's the case should we be

1. using it to support the statement that its "best of lists", such as http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songs-rbilly.html, are somehow notable? See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Earth_Angel&diff=prev&oldid=572956624
2. placing it on a blacklist so that it's not added as a RS?

I suspect that the editor who added that link above is one of the editors: "Bruce", but that's a different noticeboard. 00:20, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

There was a 2010 RSN topic about this website (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 78#Digital Dream Door) but nobody answered User:IHeardFromBob's request for guidance.

I say let's blacklist it. The website accepts user-generated content without editorial oversight, making it completely unreliable. On June 24 this year I removed the website and associated text from 60 articles about music and musicians. (Example.) These were all I could find that needed removing. It appears that the links have crept back into the encyclopedia. Binksternet (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Blacklisting it may be the best way to move forward then. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:56, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I have proposed that digitaldreamdoor.com be blacklisted at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Digitaldreamdoor.com. Feel free to comment. Binksternet (talk) 16:09, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

This is a TV documentary series that interviews experts and military staff about 'game changing technology'.

http://military.discovery.com/ http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/combat-countdown/videos/top-10-fighters.htm

Synopsis of series: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2247584/

Reliable? Z07x10 (talk) 17:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

In which article would you like to use this, and to support what claim? Lesser Cartographies (talk) 18:27, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Indeed.

WP:RS#Context matters. Also, an important editing concern is how do we take the expert interviews from the series and put them in articles as referenced material? – S. Rich (talk

) 18:42, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor (Mach 2.5 stated in source). I honestly think this source and the one currently listed are guessing because the information isn't released but I'm just putting it out there.Z07x10 (talk) 19:24, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

You source to the episode and program. Medium of the source does not matter. Most military channel programs have transcripts or videos available for purchase. An inconvenience for fact checking, but policy states that convenience does not matter when sourcing. Only that it theoretically can be checked by someone.Camelbinky (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

My assessment of the source is that it is an opinion/editorial piece, which gives very little in the way of verifiable information. I have checked other sources, which I usually find to be more reliable, such as books. The speculation out there on the craft's top speed varies wildly. For example, the book Introduction to the United States Air Force says the top speed is mach 2. The book Attack Fighters says mach 1.7. I think the book F22 Raptor gives the most reliable answer, saying, "The top speed of the F-22 is classified. Test pilots say it can go faster than 1,600 miles (2,575 kilometers) per hour. [mach 2.1]." For this particular source in question, I have to ask where this information came from, but they do not provide any source of their own. Zaereth (talk) 19:52, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Then I'd recommend we document the inconsistency - give the different figures and cite each one to where it came from. --GRuban (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that's probably a good idea in general when dealing with these things GRuban. Lockheed themselves only state Mach 2 class ^[2] and I don't think Top Tens or Air Forces Monthly (2.25) has a source for their figures. Zaereth - we do need to be careful when performing Mach conversions from TAS. 2,575kph is undoubtedly a figure achieved at high altitude where the speed of sound is only 1062kph and hence that equates to over Mach 2.4.Z07x10 (talk) 20:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Just cite

Jane's All the World's Aircraft and be done with it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk

) 21:05, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

My mistake, iusually don't double check numbers or spelling on talk. You're right, I just typed it into my microsoft conversion program, but these are not always the best choice. (Just try to get a decent torr conversion from one.) At typical cruise altitude it would be mach 2.356. I'm fine with citing whatever Jane's says, or giving a range (ie: between mach 2.0 and 2.8, which is the largest number I've seen), or you could just put a tilde in front of the number, meaning "around," to indicate the exact figure as unknown (ie: ~ mach 2.4). My main point was to indicate that there are probably better sources than the one in question. Zaereth (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Dodger67 - Jane's isn't really the fantastic source it's made out to be. All their data is taken from other sources, they do no independent performance testing AFAIK. Zaereth, can you source the pilot's claim of 2,575kph? My calculation was for 11,000m, which is usually around the optimum altitude for maximum speed.Z07x10 (talk) 08:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I can neither confirm nor deny... Actually, I chose the above quote about "pilots say it can go faster than 1600 mph" out of irony. (I was hoping ypu'd check google books.) The only book which actually attributes a source (pilots say) and admits to not knowing outright, making it a believable response, is the book F22 Raptors, which is a childrens book.

The book Mass Assassinations gives this number (2.4) on page 164. The website http://tech.military.com/equipment/view/89685/f-22-raptor.html also gives this number. I can't vouch for the relability of these numbers, but at least these aren't op/ed pieces.

What I can tell you is that when Lockheed was designing the F22, there was much discussion about whether it should be Mach 2.0 or Mach 2.4. At Mach 2.0 the craft's skin must be able to withstand maximum temperatures of 275 degrees F, and long-term temperatures of 220 degrees F. Increasing the speed to 2.4 would mean exposing the crft to temperatures of 400 degrees max, and 350 for long-term exposures. Going even faster produces even higher temperatures, so the material used in the airframe and hull were major deciding factors in determining the max speed. Zaereth (talk) 20:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Jane's is certainly better than a TV show. Jane's is a pretty well known source for things military. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I am more than happy with Jane's reputation, although I don't know what it says about the F22. I think everyone seems to agree that it's above 2.0 and that only the government knows for sure, so perhaps simply putting >2.0 will suffice. (Just a thought.) Zaereth (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

@Dbrodbeck - Any source is only as good as its source. I think the present source is Air Forces Monthly, which states a 1.82 supercruise and 2.25 top end. These 2 figures don't seem to tally. I would have expected re-heat to cause a much bigger difference.Z07x10 (talk) 08:39, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll give you the most reliable sources I can come up with. On page 16, the book United States Air Force by the United States Air Force says the top speed is "1500 mph (mach 2)." (Directly citing; no math on my part.)

The book Lockheed Stealth by Bill Sweetman says on page 96 that the top speed is between 1.8 and 2.0. He goes on to say that, although the engines have plenty of power for 2.5 "few pilots have seen 2.5 on the mach meter." He says that to achieve 2.5 they would have had to add variable inlets and increase the temperature requirements for materials used throughout the craft. (Keep in mind that in material choice max temp. is often not as critical as temperature cycling. In other words, the difference between supercruise and gate is limited by the bird's structural design rather than its engines.)

The book The Lockheed Plant by Joe Kirby on page 116 syas that Lockheed boasts a speed "in excess of mach 2.0, but the exact speed remains classified." I would probably choose this last book and follow its example, because it offers no conjecture about the unknowns but clearly states the knowns. All of these books are available of google books, and none are children's books. Zaereth (talk) 19:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

In light of that it's probably best to do nothing, since some kind of consensus obviously exists already and it's very difficult to create a cast iron agreement on anything else due to the classification of the details.Z07x10 (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Can a post on

Specifically, I'm wondering about the suitability of this Reddit comment as a source for the following statement in Outlook.com#IMAP:

IMAP support was announced on September 12, 2013.

It seems like a

Indrek (talk) 20:15, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Another question I have also recently become involved in a dispute over this site as a source: (see the contentious edit). I removed the comments on the grounds that it looked like a forum, but if this person is indeed Robin Williams then obviously I don't have a problem with sourcing his comments, and I don't want to be personally responsible for having inaccurate information in the article, so the bottom line is how do we confirm if a poster is real or not? Is there an official announcement somewhere which confirms identities? Betty Logan (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

It's easy: The Reddit moderators ask for proof that the person doing the AMA is the one it claims to be. Things that are considered proof are listed here. Often celebrities tweet about the AMA from an account which has been verified by Twitter (see the tick next to the account name). This has been done quite often now and Reddit is popular enough that celebrities would intervene if someone tried to impersonate them. --Kurt Jansson (talk) 18:44, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

So, any thoughts about the original issue(s) here? Do Reddit IAmA's fall under

WP:ABOUTSELF and therefore as a reliable source? Is there any reason not to use secondary sources (in the form of well-established news outlets) over a Reddit post (which would be a primary source) when available? Indrek (talk

) 20:46, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Treat it like any other interview. I don't see any difference here. --Kurt Jansson (talk) 09:18, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, one obvious difference is that Reddit is inherently a

WP:SPS (being an internet forum). Hence this question. But I see what you're saying. I hadn't thought of looking at an IAmA like an interview. Thanks for your input. Indrek (talk

) 20:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

When I added a figure from a 2013 NYT article about the number of Korean immigrants in Mexico (cited line: "CULTURE Performing Korean pop music in Mexico City. At least 12,000 Koreans are said to live in Mexico." - and page3/4 says: "Officials at a newly opened Korean cultural center here say at least 12,000 Koreans now call Mexico home,"), an IP address removed it, saying that it was pointless to state the figure because there were already 2008 South Korean government figures in the article. I believed that one should have both the 2008 and 2013 pieces of information in the article.

When I argued that there is a difference between the years 2008 and 2013 and that articles in general should cite secondary sources whenever possible, the IP argued from WP:RS "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content" and "For information about academic topics, scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports." - He argues that a government has a reputation for making a reliable population counts while a newspaper does not.

Would these arguments be always correct, or are do publications have reputations for being very high quality on the matter?

Please see the page at

The New York Times is a highly reliable source but of course in this case it is quoting people who might not be well-informed themselves. However, given that the thrust of the section in the article is to illustrate the disparity in estimates of the Korean-Mexican population, rather than to dogmatically give an absolute figure, I don't think that poses a problem. The NYT reporter is likely to have chosen their sources with some consideration of their reliability. Barnabypage (talk) 12:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

[46] has been presented on a sandbox page User:Jenova20/Criticism_of_the_Daily_Mail_and_Mail_Online as a proposed addition to the Daily Mail article. Is this a reliable source for claims that the Daily Mail has "Trans issues and reputation of homophobia" Is the proposed section something which should be added to the main article? Collect (talk) 15:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Reliable for the experiences of one journalist. Whether it is worth including in the article is a matter of weight. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. This is an opinion piece so I think the question really comes down to the reliability and authority of Jane Fae rather than Gaystarnews, which in itself seems reliable enough to not have made up her article from thin air. She's an established journalist on issues related to transgender etc., but on the other hand she's not (as far as I can see) particularly an authority on media or media history. I'd say on balance that the source is just about okay but not great. I'm sure there must be better ones around to support the same point. Barnabypage (talk) 13:02, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The journalist actually praises the DM in the editorial article -- which is not the claim being made in the first place <g>, but you feel "gaystarnews" meets

WP:RS? How? Collect (talk

) 21:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

This piece is an interview with a journalist, so should be reliable for the views of that journalist. If the journalist has retracted her views then please disregard the source. Of course if it is felt to be relevant it needs to be accurately represented. I did not look at whether she praised or criticised the DM. I only looked to see whether the source was usable in the WP article. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:35, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

A minor edit war at

Editor ignoring any request, just forcing it back in.

talk

) 16:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm finding this used in a number of articles for factual statements, mainly population figures. I've been removing it but would like other comments. Currently the figure is [50].

• Prayway.com is definitely non-RS. – S. Rich (talk) 05:47, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

It's a site for prayer requests that doesn't even purport to be a source of information about anything else. It couldn't possibly be a RS except for narrow questions relating to itself. Barnabypage (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I am working on the article about the fictional language Aklo and the most "academic" analysis I have come up with so far is from The Comics Forum from google scholar, particularly this and this one. Is the content there being appropriately vetted?

I also have a question about this book it is published by ulysses press with the authors credited as listverse.com.

i appreciate any insight. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 08:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The first source meets

WP:SELFPUBLISH as the author has been published on comic analysis. Unfortunately, on a side note, I question the statement in the article that Aklo is pictographic, even though that is what the source says. The Haunter of the Dark, which is what is referred to, says: "The manuscript writing consisted of the common traditional symbols used today in astronomy and anciently in alchemy, astrology, and other dubious arts- the devices of the sun, moon, planets, aspects, and zodiacal signs- here massed in solid pages of text, with divisions and paragraphings suggesting that each symbol answered to some alphabetical letter.... The cipher, he soon saw, was no simple one; and after a long period of endeavour he felt sure that its language could not be English, Latin, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, or German ... The text was, he found, in the dark Aklo language used by certain cults of evil antiquity, and known to him in a halting way through previous researches." In other words, the cipher used was pictographic. Not the Aklo language. The Aklo language uses "alphabetical letters". Stephen Cain misread the story. --GRuban (talk

) 21:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I know that this might look like an unnecessary question, but I'm currently having a discussion with an user called Tobus2 (detailed discussion here [51]) and he insists on the institution being unreliable until proven otherwise here, I told him repeated times that on the case of recognized universities it isn't necessary, but he insists. So well, what do people here think? My intention is that of use the university as a source for crediting an investigator called Jonathan Hagos as an expert on cartography (he was featured in a seminar hosted by The Bartlett Development Unit [52] (citing the site of the exhibition) The exhibit will be public and will be displayed during the London Mapping seminar on the 20th and 21th September 2012 at UCL. As well as receiving a certificate, the chosen posters will be consider for a future publication and will be featured in the website, The confirmation of Hagos being featured on the 2012 seminar as well as the the proof of him having multiple publications in the field and being recognized by the Oxford brookes University is here [53]). I believe that is rather unnecessary and that his behavoir breachs a bit the codes of conduct of wikipedia, but if this is what it takes to end the discussion so be it. Another thing that must be remarked is that i was involved on a discussion some time ago regarding this investigator and on it's due time I accepted the resolution of the past discussion, which is already on the past. I say this so the old issues don't be taken up again and this discussion get extended too much. This is a completely different issue, on a different topic, and I base my posture today on what is written at the top of this noticeboard: Many sources are reliable for statement "X," but unreliable for statement "Y" though to be more precise, on this case it would be Many sources are unreliable for statement "X," but reliable for statement "Y". Thanks in advance. Czixhc (talk) 04:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Here you add [[54]] the map. Tobus2 removes it [55]. You add it again [56], and Tobus2 removes it again [57]. But this is the same map which was debated in the last discussion at [[58]]. And this is the dispute you are discussing on Tobus2's discussion page. So how is this a completely different issue? It seems like the exact same issue. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 07:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I know this is a complex issue because we're not just talking about a straightforward case of a cartographer doing a bit of cartography. I'll repeat the point I think I made on the article page a while back, that although Hagos may be an expert in the visualisation of information (or somesuch phrase), that doesn't make him an expert in the data underlying the information.

However, in answer to your specific question here - yes, UCL is clearly a reliable institution (usually featuring in the top 10 or top 20 lists of worldwide institutions of higher education) and that speaks to the reliability of its staff and its publications.

I will also add, just having seen some of your discussion with Tobus2, that the guy under discussion doesn't need a formal qualification in cartography to be an expert in the subject. (John Maynard Keynes did not have a qualification in economics, to take a random example.) At an academic level there is an awful lot of cross-over between architecture and other disciplines, with cartography having an obvious relationship. Barnabypage (talk) 07:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I am getting past fed up with the

talk

) 11:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The link to the 2012 seminar clearly says "Anyone can enter!" and that submissions were in the form of an A1 poster and a 300 word abstract. There was no CV, qualifications or formal written application required and the "featured" applicants didn't give talks, their work was just included in an exhibition - this wasn't a "

talk

) 12:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC

While a publisher may in general be a reliable source, that is not a blanket coverage for all topics and in all situations. Just because University College London is a respected academic institution, that does not give everything on any page on the University College London webpages universal credence as "being unquestionably reliable" . In addition, there is the aspect of being a reliably published source, rather than merely being content posted or hosted on a website. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)`

(edit conflict) This is a confusing RSN posting. I see it is about the reliability of a certain map, right? Or, more correctly, about the information displayed on the map, since the map is being used to present the information. However, the question asked is about the reliability of UCL. How is that relevant? Universities don't generally certify information other than about themselves. Where can we read that UCL has spoken about the reliability of the map? Please, oh please, don't tell us that the map must be reliable because it was displayed at a seminar at UCL; that would be just too much of a misconception about how universities work. Zero^talk 12:49, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

(

) 12:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

It's also worth looking at

talk

) 13:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

This is ridiculous - we have already been through this, and there is no reason whatsoever to go through it all again. The data in Hagos's map is not reliable - because (a) Hagos isn't qualified in the field of human skin colouration (a subject for physical anthropologists, not cartographers), and (b) more importantly, he doesn't claim that his map represents any particular data anyway. It is a work of art, not science. If Czixhc won't drop the matter, take it to WP:ANI. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:38, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it is wrong to say that because someone is an expert on something that every single thing they produce may be relied upon. You need to consider where the map was published. If it was published in an academic journal that would indicate that it had been peer-reviewed, and we could see where he got his data and determine its general acceptance. TFD (talk) 14:40, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Hagos doesn't claim that the colours on his map are based on objective 'data'. [63] He describes it as based on a "von Luschan scale" which was "considered problematic, even by its practitioners, because it was very inconsistent". He goes on to say that "In this project I utilize [the map] as a way of highlighting (when compared to maps utilizing population data from earlier centuries) the effects of colonisation as well as migratory trends in the last century. The question of 'the indigenous' is raised as well as a closer look at multicultural ideals". It clearly isn't intended as any sort of objective depiction of 'skin colouration' at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:15, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

time to close as another overwhelming rejection in this

WP:FORUMSHOPing spree?-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom

19:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it is. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Note. Given the grossly misleading title given the image by Czixhc, I have asked that it be renamed. [64] AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:05, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like there have been a true debate over here, I appreciate the contributions of you all. Just some clarifications: this goes mainly for Dougweller: This is not "I didn't hear that" or anything, the topic on which I want to use the map is different, and i'm using a different source. That's it. This one goes for Tobus2 for stating that "Anyone can enter" on the seminary, well, maybe anyone can enter but not anybody will be featured on the final seminary. Looks like there is some indecision wheter if the recognizement of an university might make somebody reliable or not (I agree with Barnabypage: it does), well, lets focus on that for now, whatever the outcome turns out to be i'm ok with it. Czixhc (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Please note that Czixhc has just deleted, without prior discussion, my rename proposal on Commons. At this point, I have to suggest that his/her self-evident inability to demonstrate even the faintest ability to drop the stick is solid grounds for an indefinite block per Wikipedia:Disruptive editing guidelines. Enough is enough, and I don't see why we should have to put up with this any more. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• You are really dramatic aren't you? I already explained why the rename request that you made up was incorrect, what do you want? to have two rename requests: one mine and yours? I'm more tired than you of discussing this and i'm just waiting for a consensus on the reliability of the recognizement of an university, i'm not like you, if the consensus doesn't favor me again it's not the end of the world, chill out. Czixhc (talk) 21:38, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Your "explanation" is just the same old bullshit you have repeatedly been told is irrelevant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• I accepted that was my mystake in the old discussion, right now the sources and the topics are different, as i told before, i have no problem with the final resolution, i just want to be sure about the sources to know if i wil need more in the future, and if so, which ones so this don't happens again. Czixhc (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• If you have accepted that you were mistaken, why are you still asserting that the image should be entitled a "World map by skin color for modern populations" despite the fact that the source makes no assertion to that effect whatsoever? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Stop mixing unrelated issues, this is no place to discuss this, i said well at the beginning that i didn't wanted this discussion to enlong itself and go off-topic, the title of the image and the discussion taking place right now have nothing to do with eachother. Czixhc (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

By all appearances you are still trying to include the map, on the basis of Hagos' work. The fact that Hagos' work was part of this seminar was known in the last discussion as well. The problem with the map that was identified in the last discussion wasn't that it was being used on a page about a migration and not a page about world maps, the problem was that it makes certain claims about human skin colour and that Hagos' work was not a reliable source for these claims. You've produced documents of the seminar. But these documents include no claims concerning human skin colour, apart from Hagos' map. There doesn't appear to be anything new to judge. If you do indeed have something new, my suggestion would be to follow the regular procedure of this board, as given with Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Just simply write: 1. The sources you mean to use. 2. The article to which you mean to add content. 3. The content you wish to add to that article." --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:14, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Well, my basis was that self-published sources are reliable if produced by somebody with recognizement on the field which would be cartography, so while UCL does not specify issues related to skin color, the idea is the map being used in cartography articles as a way to exemplify all that can be done with map. What if we state on the footnote where it could be used that it is a "representation" or an "exemplification" to make clear that it doesn't intends to have extraordinary scientific accuracy? This is something i wanted to ask you since the last discussion. Czixhc (talk) 22:22, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hagos's original is artwork, not scientific data. Czixhc's image is nothing but a partial copy, missing much of the detail, and all of the context. It doesn't belong anywhere on Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Using Czixhc's map as an example of cartography isn't an RS question, it's a

WP:WEIGHT issue - why should this map be used as an example over the thousands of other maps that are available to use as examples? As explained by User:Strebe at the World map talk page[65]

, it isn't suitable there.

If you think about it, using a map as an example means we're using the expression of the ideas (the execution), not the ideas themselves (the content). If we were going to use Czixhc's map as an example of cartography, then it would have to be Czixhc who has the recognition/expertise in cartography - we wouldn't use a copy of the Mona Lisa as an example of

WP:Fair use

if needs be). So even if there were an article where such a map would be a good example, then we'd use Hagos's original map and not this version anyway. I think AndyTheGrump is right, there's nowhere this map can be used on WP - it's not reliably sourced so can't be used in any factual articles and if it were ever warranted we'd use the original as an example, not Czixhc's "copy".

talk

) 02:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Judging for the reponses of the users above me this is starting to lean to a remarkably subjetive area. For example: Andythegrump says that is artwork, however in the site of the original image that is never stated; and Tobus2 is bringing a tiring argument regarding copyrights again, despite that the map has been proven to not violate any copyright two times before. I'd rather wait to see what users Barnabypage and Atethnekos have to say about the issue and the questions i've asked to them, i have no intention neither time to extend this discussion once more answering the same questions from the same users again. Czixhc (talk) 04:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

You have misunderstood me Czixhc, I didn't say anything about copyright. My point is that your map wasn't executed by Hagos, it was executed by you - any skill, reputation or credentials that Hagos might have in making maps would only apply to his original map, not to yours.

The site of the original image clearly states that the data in Hagos's map is not reliable (as AndyTheGrump pointed out earlier). Whether it's "artwork" or not doesn't matter so much as the fact that it's definitely not "scientific data".

talk

) 06:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

While I agree with AndyTheGrump, I will endulge Czixhc's request to stick to his specific narrow question, which I am basing on the title of the thread- Yes, in general, material published (and a website is considered for Wikipedia purposes to be "published" material), by that university, having gone through some sort of peer-review, fact-checking process, it is considered to be reliable, with the obvious caveat that- it must be true. If a book published by the university says the capital of Iceland is Dublin and the capital of Ireland is Reykjavik then no, those statements are not reliable and the source cant be used to state that those statements are true, however being wrong in that one instance does not invalidate the entire book from being a source on something else (though enough wrong statements and one would be better off sourcing a correct statement to a different source than one that is wrong too many times). So, Czixhc, your intentionally narrow question has been answered regarding the reliability of material published by that specific university with no mention to whether the map is accepted or not. Now, personally- I believe you should be topic banned.Camelbinky (talk) 19:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The image in question wasn't published by UCL anyway. It was 'published' by Czixhc. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

In that case- we're in the wrong forum. This is not the OR/N; if he wishes to expand his question to the map in particular and not generically about the university's reliable publishing ability he'll have to start a thread over there. This should be closed per- wrong forum. Camelbinky (talk) 20:12, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Tobus2, Your statement is non-sense, by your logic 90% of the maps used on wikipedia aren't reliable, because the information have been replicated by wikipedia users from their respective source sites in order to not violate any copyright, And the map being based on the Von Luschan chromatic scale shouldn't be an impediment for it's use as an informative source, there is another maps and articles based on it being used on wikipedia right now. Camelbinky: I really don't think that a publication by any University will ever switch the capitals of Iceland and Ireland, these institutions have a strong editorial control. And to answer your question, I ask about the reliability of the UCL because that university accepts Hagos as a cartographer and published his work before (i mention this on my first paragraph in this discussion). Per wikipedia's self published sources policy [66]: "A self published work (which would be the original map on which the file i made is based upon) might be reliable if the creator has recognizement and works in the relevant field" Thus The claim of the UCL don't publishing this exact map per the policy afore mentioned is void, because the requeriments for a self-published work to be included on wiki are the creator to third party back up in the field, not on the exact work. If the UCL is reliable Hagos is a reliable cartographer, that's why the focus point of this discussion is the UCL. This is really going on circles, I'll wait to see if Atethnekos and Barnabypage (he agreed on Hagos being a reliable cartographist) appear again. I have no intention of going on circles here again. Czixhc (talk) 21:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

"If the UCL is reliable Hagos is a reliable cartographer". No. That is not what it would take to make the map properly sourced. A connection to UCL does not automatically mean that anything produced by Hagos is accurate & neutral, least of all considering the concerns raised above. Please stop this and move on to something else more productive. bobrayner (talk) 21:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Well, i believe is that way because the policy for reliable sources states such, but well, looks like somehow it's not that way how it works, for now i take your insight as adecuate for the resolution of this discussion, though i sugest to wait and see what the other users mentioned have to say. If they don't appear then it's seetled for now (I say for now because the reputiation of Hagos or his work might change in the future, when more sources that favor him get published as one of much examples, and when that happens i'll try again). Czixhc (talk) 21:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

To prevent future arguments, please note that you've misquoted the

talk

) 23:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• What makes somebody a recognized expert if not to have his work published by on a seminary hosted by one of the most notorious universities in the world? What third party publications are more reliable than the aforementioned university itself? Czixhc (talk) 00:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• uhhh, how about actual publishing and not just posting on your personal employee space on the college website. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
• But he was featured on the seminary, it's not just something he made up. Czixhc (talk) 00:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Since it is self-evident that Czixhc has no intention whatsoever of accepting an overwhelming consensus that his image should not be used on Wikipedia, I shall shortly be raising the matter at WP:ANI, where I shall propose an indefinite topic ban for Czixhc on any matters relating to human skin colour, cartography, and/or the works of Jonathan Hagos, broadly construed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I think that would be good if you try for once to read carefully what is written, and analize it before writting plain non-sense . I said various replies above that as of now i accept the resolution of this issue. I just asked to tobus what does the sefl published sources policy mean to him. Your behavoir through this issue is shrug inducing. Czixhc (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Since "work published by on a seminary hosted by one of the most notorious universities in the world" really means he was in an art exhibition that anybody could enter into then no, that doesn't make him an recognised expert in the field. It just means he's good at drawing things.

talk

) 00:57, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• Anybody could enter, but not anybody would be featured on the final cut. It is called a seminary for a reason. Czixhc (talk) 01:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Note. I have now raised Czixhc's tendentious behaviour at

WP:ANI, proposing a topic ban. [67] AndyTheGrump (talk

) 01:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• But i accepted the consensus of the comunity two hours ago. How come that somebody as clueless as you is editing wiki? seriously. Czixhc (talk) 01:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

And continued to argue. By the way, a seminar is not the same thing as a seminary, and 'notorious' doesn't mean what you think it means. You should not be calling other people clueless if you don't understand the words that you are using.

talk

) 11:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm comenting here because i want to be sure about what every thing means to this comunity, so this discussions don't happen again. I have an understanding of what these things mean, but looks like the definitions of the comunity are different, that's why i want to learn them. Czixhc (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

United States Olympic Hall of Fame List

The website for the United States Olympic Committee does not have a current list available of all members of the

United States Olympic Hall of Fame. In an attempt to find a verifiable list, I e-mailed the webmaster of the site and inquired if it was available. I received an e-mail several days later with a PDF listing of the members, current as of 2013. I wish to cite this somehow, as it's verifiable (I have the e-mail from the USOC), but I don't know what format to use, or how to prove it to other people. Any advice on this would be most helpful, thanks. Anthony (talk)

20:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

a pdf that was mailed to you

is not a reliably published source and so it is not usable as a source for Wikipedia content. You could use it to do google news and googlebooks and other searches to find reliably published sources that identify team members. If they put it up on their website, then it would be acceptable as a primary source document. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom

20:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

May I inquire why it is not reliable? I thought I'd seen e-mails considered reliable sources if you're able to verify the source of the e-mail. The e-mail originates from the USOC.org domain name, and the author identifies herself as an employee (archivist, actually) of the USOC. The problem is, I've done a search and cannot find any other sites or citations for this information. Not being snippy, but I fail to see how something stated straight from the source cannot be considered reliable. Anthony (talk) 20:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

all that is

verifiable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom

21:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The USOHF must actually publish the list, not send it out privately. Binksternet (talk) 23:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Understood. I e-mailed her back asking her to post it on the USOC website somewhere. We'll see what happens. Anthony (talk) 00:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians

H. M. Elliot and edited by John Dowson and praised by English historian Stanley Lane-Poole. This historical book has been reprinted several times and still available both online and paperback editions. Currently, there is a discussion on Talk:Manda_clan and Talk:The_History_of_India,_as_Told_by_Its_Own_Historians about using this book for citation. Is this a reliable source or not? Thanks, --Tartarrman (talk

) 09:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Not reliable, and that is absolutely clear. Much too old. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article itself raises some questions as to the book's quality. It might be a reliable source as to the contents of those medieval Persian chronicles but I wouldn't consider it reliable on the subject of the history of India in general. And that is hardly an unresearched subject - there must be countless more recent and more authoritative publications that you could use instead. Barnabypage (talk) 09:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The precise point that Tartarrman wishes to use this source for is in any event a violation of

WP:OR. One of the medieval texts contained within it refers to a groups of people called Mands and Tatarrman wants to assert that these are the same people as the present-day Manda clan. - Sitush (talk

) 09:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Not a reliable source for the history of India, and certainly not for the purpose Tartarrman wants to use it for.

talk

) 11:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Cassandra Clare Controversies

OK, so I've been trying to find sources that meet wikipedia's reliability standards for BLP for the Cassandra Clare article regarding plagiarism accusations, and after a lengthy discussion in the talk page, Binksternet verified that a certain Daily Dot article, which discusses CC's murky fandom past, including accusations of flamewars, cyberbullying & plagiarism, was good enough to meet the criteria for reliable sources. However, about a day later or so, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz disputed this, claiming that the source was a "gross" BLP violation in the page log, and reverted the edit, as well as my reversion of that revert. Here's the diff.

So far, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz has not bothered to back up any of their claims regarding the supposed inappropriateness of the source with anything from the wikipedia guidelines. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the guidelines (as mentioned by Binksternet) seem to support the use of this source. For example, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz claims that the piece is a "blog" and so not strong enough for BLP. However, not only does the Daily Dot not present the piece as a blog, but just another article held to the same standards as all their others (including rigorous fact-checking), but the Daily Dot presents itself as an actual online newspaper, and by extension all its articles not marked as "blogs" (including this source) are essentially newspaper articles (to further strengthen this demarcation, the Daily Dot does have an actual blog, and that piece was still not hosted in that section, but in its main news section). And aside from that,

WP:NEWSBLOG

would seem to support the use of this source even if it was from the blog of a newspaper anyway (even though it would be better classified as an opinion piece from a newspaper).

Therefore, I come for a consensus to end this debate once and for all. Again, I stress, there is no reason to believe this article in particular is held to any different standard than any of the other journalistic articles published by the Daily Dot, and even the most basic research will show that the facts have been very well checked, as the Daily Dot's Ethical Policy promises, and this piece essentially constitutes a newspaper article.

As I said on the talk page:

"According to

WP:NEWSBLOG

, the guidelines clearly state that they should be used with caution as "the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process".

Not only has Gavia Baker-Whitelaw clearly checked their facts (something which you can verify yourself by cross-referencing the multitude of links I posted above), but the Daily Dot, in its ethical policy, clearly states that their reporters (which includes Baker-Whitelaw) are required to do a significant degree of fact-checking. Specifically, I thinking of this section:

The Daily Dot’s first and most important responsibility is accuracy. We make reasonable efforts to verify information by publication time and we disclose to readers transparently what we do and do not know to be a fact.

This clearly applies to individual reporters like Baker-Whitelaw in the following section:

Individual employees will never manipulate the facts for any kind of personal relationship, and they will not put themselves in a position to profit, financially or otherwise, by their reporting."

So: is this Daily Dot article reliable, and can the edit therefore be reinstated?The Talking Toaster (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

"applying tried-and-true principles drawn from community journalism" "Like traditional community newspapers, we are tribunes, " If this is

content about a living person, no it is not acceptable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom

12:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

And a source isn't reliable just because it says it's reliable. Of course, there are other major BLP issues here, beginning with why an internet kerfluffle over a now-successful writer's not-really-published amateur work belongs in an encyclopedia at all. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I have found two other sources which discuss Cassie's plagiarism allegations:

• Christian Science Monitor, which despite its name, purports to be a secular, fully fledged news organisation.
• An article in Paper Droids, which discusses the plagiarism debate more fully. This one also presents itself as a magazine, which according to WP: SOURCE, seems very much to fit the mould of a reliable source.

All of these sources back up each others' stories as far as I can tell, and hence support each other--are these three together reliable enough?

Also, could you clarify your point in selecting those two quotes to repeat, please?The Talking Toaster (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea what they mean when they say "community journalism" but it sounds like crowd sourcing and/or activism. And when they talk about "we are tribune" sounds even more like activism. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

But the CS Monitor is in fact a very respected source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

However, what the CS Monitor says is: "blog posts filled with vitriol abound, alleging " - we dont repeat allegations made in blogs, which is all the CS Monitor says.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

And what of the paper droids source?

Also, regarding the allegations, I understand that it wouldn't be a good idea to harbour any and every allegation someone makes about an author (or other living person), but this is more than just a random, single claim with no evidence, or a persistent rumour that is actually false. On the contrary, these claims have followed Clare since the original story broke over the Draco trilogy (over a decade ago). The original story was very well sourced, with a lot of evidence (see the Clare talk page for an extensive list of links, particularly the one to the Cassandra Clare Plagiarism Debacle by Avocado, which is also mentioned in the paper droids article), and new claims have since arisen--and also continued to follow Clare, and again with a lot of evidence--since her professional break. At this point, a significant chunk of Clare's fame consists of the plagiarism (and to a lesser extent, cyberbullying) aspects, and should be covered, especially since her fanfic past is included in the article. At the very least, I--and clearly several other users on the talk pahge--feel that the fact that she has been consistently accused of the same plagiarism claims for ~12 years should be addressed, even if the question as to whether or not she did plagiarise is left open ended.

That said, the Daily Dot article supports the multitude of claims I linked in the talk page, and the paper droids one supports that. The CS monitor, though apparently unconvinced, does also at least acknowledge that these claims exist also, and so I feel that could still be used in the article as well.

Furthermore, regarding your comment about undue weight, again, given the length of time these claims have persisted, and the fact that so many people espouse them, and that there is so much evidence for them (even if a good deal of that evidence may not meet Wikipedia's verifiability standards) clearly shows that this opinion of Clare is not, at the very least, a minority one, and does seems to be one followed by a significant number of people.The Talking Toaster (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Given the fact that you cannot produce one reliable source which backs the claims,

WP:BLP-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom

18:23, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I missed something, but I must ask again: what of the paper droids source? As far as I can tell, that does seem to be the most reliable bar the CS monitor one--does it not count? If it does, that would at least be one reliable source, and could back up the Daily Dot article (and possibly the CS one?)The Talking Toaster (talk) 18:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The redlink for Paper Droids says all that needs to be said about its standing in the way of being a reputable press. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

How? As far as I can tell, there's no stipulation on

WP:SOURCE that a source needs to be covered on wikipedia before it can be classed as reputable. I understand if it's something to do with being BLP, but if we really can't use, I would appreciate a fuller & better cited explanation than that i.e. something that actually refers to wikipedia's rules, or somethingThe Talking Toaster (talk

) 18:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Reliability is based on having a reputation of fact checking and accuracy. Paper Droid has no reputation at all, let alone one that qualifies it as a reliable source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, thinking about the Daily Dot source again, why is the thing about (potential) activism and community journalism a bad thing? I would appreciate some clarification, if only for future referenceThe Talking Toaster (talk) 18:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Activists have a goal of changing something- not a goal of reporting the facts as facts irrespective of whether or not they will change something or particularly change something in the direction that you want it to change. Reliable sources have as their primary goal presenting the facts, all of the facts, in a neutral manner. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Paper Droids is plainly an unacceptable source. It's essentially a collection of self-published blogging, aggregated to generate advertising revenue. And when you actually look at the page you want to cite, it's simply atrocious. Most of it is, explicitly, "sourced" to pseudonymous postings with no meaningful verifiability. The site's non-existent commitment to fact-checking is demonstrated by the fact that the page's author uncritically accepted a commenter's claims as factual and incorporated them into the main text (with attribution but without any disclaimer). Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Where exactly, Hulla, does Paper Droids reveal itself to be a blog, as opposed to the magazine they present themselves as? Also, if you're referring to the commenter's observation at the bottom, was merely presently as a "fantastic observation" by the commenters, similar to the Guardian's comment of the week thing.

I also found this source, btw, which seems like it could count as a reliable source. It's from The Tartan, an online student newspaper that's been around since 1906, was published by a staff writer (and so is not, as far as I can tell, user-generated content) and supports the claims discussed so far. It seems quite reputable, as such--yes/no, and why if not?The Talking Toaster (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Which says, plain as day, at the top, before the text, "Editorials featured in the Forum section are solely the opinions of their individual authors". The opinion of a college student is not a reliable source for a BLP. This discussion is slipping into absurdity. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

First off, I would appreciate it if you didn't call "absurd" and such whilst I'm trying to engage in reasoned discourse with you. I'm making the effort to be fair & work within the system, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect you to either.

Secondly, wouldn't that just make it an opinion piece, and hence a

WP:NEWSBLOG at worst? The Talking Toaster (talk

) 19:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

No. Which part of "The opinion of a college student is not a reliable source for a BLP" isn't clear to you?

I spent some time searching for information about Clare on news sources. There are lots of articles about movies made from her books, fewer articles on her books, and a couple of interviews. But as far as plagiarism, I could only find that Daily Dot article.
As far as my opinion on DD, they truly have their finger on the pulse of social media and what people are talking about online. And on that subject (what people are talking about), I think they are a reliable source but they shouldn't be given too much weight...they are going after "stories" so will search out conflict (like most journalism). But social media chatter is the very definition of rumor, meaning, it might end up being true but it is unverifiable and, so far, no news reporter has made an investigation into Clare's work a pursuit. I don't think Wikipedia should include mention of this controversy until there are more reliable sources for actual, investigated claims of plagiarism. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

consultingbyrpm.com/blog -- personal blog of economist Robert Murphy

In spite of my objections per closing a previous RfC relevant to this article, I will close this RfC as well on the basis that its participants have not expressed any reservations given my prior involvement. Of course, if there are substantial disagreements with this close, they can be brought to

the appropriate venue. The current topic still deals with citing a blog, self-published by a member of the institute in question, to support statements in relation to the controversial reputation of the institute. As such, my closing at the prior RfC still very much applies here. Consequently, consensus is that the blog is an inappropriate source for use in this article, and therefore, so is its content. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line}

16:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

1. Source: "Free Advice: The personal blog of economist Robert P. Murphy": "In Defense of the Mises Institute" [68].
2. Article:
   Ludwig von Mises Institute#Criticisms
3. Content:

   Mises Scholar Robert Murphy wrote in support of the Institute's founder, Llewellyn Rockwell. He called the critics of Rothbard and Rockwell "hyenas" and defended Rockwell's refusal to respond to the controversy surrounding the racist content in the Ron Paul newsletters.[37][38] [39][40] In the opinion of former Mises Institute Scholar Gene Callahan, "I think the truly racist time at LVMI had passed by the time Bob [Murphy] and I got there" around 2001. Callahan states, "Rothbard, in the late 80s or early 90s, had decided that an appeal to racists was just the ticket for his movement. He published articles saying things like blacks weren't doing very well because they weren't so smart, got involved with Neo-Confederate causes, and so on. I think by 2000, Lew Rockwell sincerely regretted that time". Callahan rejected Robert's Murphy's denial that the Mises Institute is a cult, and compared it to Scientology.[41]

• Content (updated, as material from Callahan removed per RSN):

  Mises Scholar Robert Murphy wrote in support of the Institute's founder, Llewellyn Rockwell. He called the critics of Rothbard and Rockwell "hyenas" and defended Rockwell's refusal to respond to the controversy surrounding the racist content in the Ron Paul newsletters.[40][41][42][43]

• Talkpage discussion:
  Talk:Ludwig von Mises Institute#Murphy blog as RS for article .28BRD.29
• Notes by OP: Footnote 37 is the Murphy blog citation. Footnotes 38–40 are about the Ron Paul newsletters. Footnote 41 is the subject of another RSN, WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Gene-callahan.blogspot.com. (The quoted passage is copied from screenshot of paragraph without using <ref></ref> Wiki markup so that footnote numbering does not change with subsequent edits.) – S. Rich (talk) 16:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Despite (or maybe because of) a lot of words coming from Srich, I still have no idea what his objection is. MilesMoney (talk) 19:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, I cannot read his mind, but a frequent objection (and one widely supported at this board) is that in general a blog is not a

reliable source, and that even in cases where it is accepted (e.g. for an opinion), there needs to be a good reason why a particular blog post deserves enough weight to include it. --Stephan Schulz (talk

) 20:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I tried that on, but it didn't fit. We're using Murphy's words about himself and his own organization, so it's

WP:BLP

can't possibly apply. The reason we're doing this is so that we can frame Callahan's response, which would otherwise make no sense, so this is well-motivated.

I can't read his mind, either, but if that's what's on his mind then he's wasting our time again. I've been frustrated with his confusing, incompetent and counterproductive behavior on this issue, and I'm no less frustrated now. MilesMoney (talk) 21:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Just gonna point out that I've asked SRich to explain himself, he's made other edits to this section, but hasn't even tried to explain himself. Looks like all we're left with is mind-reading and I'm not detecting any hints of what your objection is. a whole lot to read.MilesMoney (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Not a helpful comment. Please redact it per

WP:NPA. --Stephan Schulz (talk

) 23:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstood it, but whatever. MilesMoney (talk) 23:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• PRIMARY sources are piss-poor at evaluating racism. They're entirely unsuitable to cult-studies. And they're inappropriate for the history of small controversial organisations. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:29, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

It turns out that the primary source isn't even quoted on the issue of cults, and we have to let them discuss racism because it would be unbalanced to let Callahan's allegations go unanswered. MilesMoney (talk) 04:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF doesn't interest me. The source isn't reliable for the claims it is making. Fifelfoo (talk

) 05:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF doesn't apply to anything I said. Unfortunately, none of your comments show that you have a working understanding of the relevant issues so I'm not sure what to do with your opinion. MilesMoney (talk

) 05:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me quote you in detail, "we have to let them discuss racism because it would be unbalanced to let Callahan's allegations go unanswered" We must X because

WP:OTHERSTUFF. No we must not. I'm sorry but you can't backdoor shit into the encyclopaedia because someone else once did so. The source you're citing has no capacity to judge racism in the sociology of small group organisations, nor is it credible for the history of a small controversial political group. This is because it is a primary SPS. Fifelfoo (talk

) 05:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

If you actually read

WP:OTHERSTUFF

, you find that it's not only a (non-binding) essay, it's a link to a section called "What about article x?". This argues against the idea that one article's existence should be justified -- in an article deletion discussion -- by referencing other articles.

What we're talking about isn't article deletion, nobody's making the argument that it argues against, and it's not even binding, regardless. Like I said, you don't have a working understanding of relevant issues. You're misquoting non-policy out of context to something it was never even supposed to apply to. The relevant policy is

WP:BALANCE and it's on my side. MilesMoney (talk

) 14:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

OTHERSTUFF is often mentioned in discussions about problematic edits. The analogy is that the existence of other lousy stuff/articles does not justify keeping this lousy stuff. While BALANCE is editing policy, it does not come into play until the threshold question is asked – Is the Murphy blog (or Callahan blog) acceptable RS? We cannot have two personal blogs (not acceptable RS) presented in the name of BALANCE. This is especially true when these personal blogs are talking about third parties. Also, Murphy's blog is not about "his organization" in that he has no official role in the administration or policy positions of LvMI. He teaches & has had stuff published by LvMI. (Another analogy. Fouad Ajami is a Fellow at the Hoover Institution. He's written over 400 articles about Arab & Islam issues. It would be improper to look through his publications, find interesting tid-bits, and post them in a "Views espoused by founders and organization scholars" section.) The views of the individuals, like Murphy and Callahan and others, are best confined to their particular articles. – S. Rich (talk) 18:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

@Srich The Murphy piece is RS for the content which is cited to it in the context of this article. Most of the points I stated in the Callahan thread above also apply here to Murphy. In neither thread have you made a case based on policy and content. Instead you are dressing up your opinion with inapt citations and misinterpretations of policy. Please do some background reading: [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74]. Please note, per one of the links provided, it is not constructive to deploy gratuitous language such as "lousy stuff" here. SPECIFICO talk 18:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

PRIMARY SPS with no EXPERT making accusations tending to libel. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

What article text sourced to Murphy's blog is libelous? I don't think calling Rockwell's unnamed critics "hyenas" is actionable. SPECIFICO talk 22:08, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:ABOUTSELF. Murphy's personal blog involves named, particular third parties/third persons. It is not acceptable RS about the Ludwig von Mises Institution. – S. Rich (talk

) 17:14, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

This is out of touch with the facts. Murphy is writing about himself; he's a member of the Institute and therefore free to discuss it all he likes. He's saying good things about it, defending it, so libel doesn't even enter the picture. But if he wants to deny that it's a cult, that's his call, and he's a reliable source on what members believe about the cult status of the Institute. MilesMoney (talk) 01:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

SRich, you've been curiously silent. Can we conclude that you're dropping your objections now that they've been soundly refuted? MilesMoney (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

That would be a welcome outcome, since Srich has rejected user Fifelfoo's libel concern. Of course, keeping Murphy's bit intact makes it all the more appropriate we also keep Gene Callahan's comment on Murphy, for balance. Note that Callahan defends Rockwell by stating he believes that Rockwell came to regret the racist redneck strategy which supported the founding of vMI. SPECIFICO talk 15:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:QS says: "Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely considered by other sources to be extremist or promotional, or that rely heavily on unsubstantiated gossip, rumor or personal opinion. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves;... They are not suitable sources for contentious claims about others. [Emphasis added.]" Murphy's blog might be suitable in his article or for posting his expert opinion in the field of economics. Callahan's blog might be suitable in his article or for posting his expert opinion in the field of economics. Murphy has taught & had publications published by LvMI, that does not make him an official of the organization. I'm a "member" of the Sierra Club. While I can use my personal blog to express any personal opinion about the Sierra Club, that opinion cannot be used in WP. Fifelfoo has objected on multiple points. I support many of the points. Again, we have a blog commenting about another blog which is commenting about other uncited comments. This is QS based on other QS. – S. Rich (talk

) 15:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

@srich: Have you reviewed the links which discuss various of the fallacies you have used in these RSN threads? That will help move this discussion forward. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 16:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

My background reading is not the issue of this thread. Rather, let's look at the names included in Murphy's blog: Ron Paul, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Peter Klein, Roderick Long, Mark Thornton, Lew Rockwell, Guido Hulsmann, Jeff Herbener. Even if he says wonderful things about these people, he is giving us gossip, rumor, and personal opinion. His personal blog has no meaningful editorial oversight. It can be used in the Murphy article, but not elsewhere. – S. Rich (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

This paragraph describing a kerfuffle between warring camps of libertarian economists (between the "GMU Austro-libertarians and the Auburn Austro-libertarians") is a tempest in a teapot if all we have on it are blog-sourced salvos sent at each other across no man's land. Why do we care what the bloggers are saying to each other? This stuff should be sourced to mainstream journals and books, not blogs, and it should be described neutrally rather than in the voices of the involved. The text shown at the top of this thread as "content" is clearly using Murphy's blog post as a coatrack to introduce the intended post by Callahan who is given five sentences versus the one sentence offered to Murphy. It is clear from this addition by Steeletrap in mid-August is the basis for the current RSN discussion; Steeletrap writes that Callahan "implies" that LvMI is a cult akin to Scientology. It is only later that Murphy is added by SPECIFICO in a false attempt to provide balance, when it is obvious that the only reason Murphy is added is so that the bit by Callahan can better survive deletion. The much greater weight given to Callahan is revealing. I think the whole paragraph should be struck as undue weight. Binksternet (talk) 23:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Wrong flick, Binksternet. This has nothing to do with the Cato/Mises rift. Murphy and Callahan were colleagues at Mises. SPECIFICO talk 01:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed the part where I linked to the same Murphy blog that you used as a reference. It's the same game. Binksternet (talk) 01:38, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I think you may be directing your efforts to an area beyond your expertise with these libertarian and Austrian economics articles. SPECIFICO talk 01:44, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm really good at recognizing activist editors who are here to slant the encyclopedia their way. Binksternet (talk) 01:51, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The subject of this noticeboard is Reliable Sources, and so far you haven't shown much understanding of the sources, their contexts, or the WP policies that would apply to them. But I'd love to have you prove me wrong and see some on-topic policy-based writings from you. SPECIFICO talk 01:58, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion of my "understanding" is not worth comment. There is a larger picture here; larger than RSN's purview. This context should not be absent from the discussion, as it bears strongly on the matter. The various blogs from Murphy and Callahan are not useful on Wikipedia unless they are 1) on topic, 2) founded on the writer's widely acknowledged expertise, and 3) relevant to a summary style encyclopedia article on the topic. In this case, the relevance is severely lacking. Murphy argues against unnamed critics of LvMI-as-a-cult and then Callahan responds saying LvMI is indeed a cult, in his opinion. Who cares? This back-and-forth by bloggers is not mainstream news. I say delete the paragraph per

WP:UNDUE. As well, neither Callahan nor Murphy are expert cult researchers, so they are out of their element. Binksternet (talk

) 02:24, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Binksternet, just about nothing regarding the Mises Institute is "mainstream news." Please read all the source material. Murphy says that no group which solicits dissent could possibly be a cult. Callahan, in order to refute him, gives a counterexample. It's a matter of logic. One needn't be an "expert cult researcher" whatever that means, or call Ghostbusters, to figure out that Callahan has refuted Murphy in this narrow clearly stated matter. SPECIFICO talk 17:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The more I look at Rich's and Blinksternet's hardline refusal to accept either of these sources, the more I realize that neither of them has even an excuse. Neither one can point at a rule that's even relevant, much less on their side. Neither one has anything substantive to object to; it's all just

WP:IDONTLIKEIT

.

I also realize that, since we can't quote Callahan without Murphy or vice versa, we can't talk about how reliable they are separately. We need a single thread, which means this one is dead in the water. Let's close both of these threads, burying the mess, and let them open up one where they actually stay on topic and don't misapply the rules. MilesMoney (talk) 22:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The Callahan blog RSN is getting plenty of comment, and each RSN thread has a notice about the other. Combining them will not work for two reasons: 1. Combing would not change the basic RS analysis (for either blog) and would only complicate a thread that is quite long as is. 2. What you say about the fate of Murphy's blog vs. Callahan's is true to a certain extent. If Murphy's blog is non-RS, then Callahan's comments about Murphy's blog get kicked out because of

WP:UNDUE. I opened the Callahan blog RSN first because some editors claim other RS supports the idea that LvMI is a cult. Callahan's blog might be non-RS in this regard, but the other sources might support a cult description. But since Callahan's blog talks about Murphy's blog, I felt it necessary/helpful to open this RSN as a separate issue. Again, I remind readers that each thread provides notice about the other. – S. Rich (talk

) 17:52, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not saying that LvMI is a cult. For that, we'd need considerably stronger sources. All we're saying is the obvious and uncontroversial fact that the controversy exists, that members of the LvMI argue publicly about whether it's a cult. I'm just not going to let you misinform people by spinning the issue this way. MilesMoney (talk) 20:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

As the RSN regarding the Callahan blog is now closed with a non-RS determination ([75]), I propose that we give equal treatment to the Murphy blog and consider it non-RS as well. It would be unbalanced for us to leave the Murphy comments in the article. – S. Rich (talk) 17:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The topic here is whether it's RS, not the balance of the article. You may withdraw this at your option but if not, let the discussion proceed to a conclusion. SPECIFICO talk 18:15, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The closing of the related Callahan blog RSN said: [inserted closing text curiously omitted by OP: "consensus was that comments from Callahan's blog in re: the institute as a cult should not be included in the article.] The basis for this consensus was that, as a self-published source, the content is generally considered unacceptable for use. [Emphasis added.]" I cannot see how we might consider Murphy's blog as RS. It is specifically self-labeled as a "personal blog". It would be incredibly inconsistent to allow one blog in, yet exclude the other. – S. Rich (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC) [omitted text inserted SPECIFICO talk 13:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)]

A request to close this RSN has been posted at

WP:ANRFC. – S. Rich (talk

) 01:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The two RSN threads are about different issues and Srich's insistence that, because the Callahan/cult text was rejected, the closing Admin must reject the Murphy defense of Mises Institute is unfounded. SPECIFICO talk 21:54, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

There may be two different personal blogs involved with the two RSNs, but the WP editing issues involved match. Each blog is

WP:PRIMARY because they ruminate on their personal experiences at LvMI. Each involves blogging about material that is not within their areas of expertise – economics. Specifico has not advanced any WP policy, guideline, or argument to overcome this fact. – S. Rich (talk

) 23:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Seems as if you feel that there's more to say in this discussion. If so, I suggest you withdraw your request for closure. If not, I'm sure the closing Admin will bring the matter to the right conclusion without needing special instructions. SPECIFICO talk 23:52, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't have anything to add. The arguments are well laid out above and, by connection, in the closed Callahan blog RSN. I would not presume to instruct an Admin on how to close. (And they'd probably ignore any such proffered instruction.) – S. Rich (talk) 00:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Content related to Murphy's blog now updated per removal of Callahan quote. Basically the material after the footnotes. – S. Rich (talk) 15:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

In light of this update, the discussion in the current thread no longer reflects the current article content and sources. This thread should be withdrawn. Please start a new thread which states whatever issues remain in the article. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The fact that the Callahan material was found non-RS was posted a few days ago. Perhaps "Clarify" would be a better term. No matter, the issue remain the same – Murphy's material is a personal blog and does not serve as proper RS. (How does the removal of the Callahan blog change that factor?) – S. Rich (talk) 15:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Stale

 – The article text and supporting references have changed since this thread was begun and the comments may no longer apply to current article content or sources

SPECIFICO talk 18:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Please state the question for which you are soliciting discussion. Please be specific and state any outstanding concerns and their relationship to the current article text. If you are requesting further editor comment here, please withdraw your closure request so that all editors will have a chance to comment and help move the discussion to a resolution and consensus. SPECIFICO talk 15:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

How does the removal of the Callahan blog (from the article text) change the fact that Murphy's personal blog is SPS and thereby is not acceptable RS? An answer might start off saying "Murphy's personal blog is acceptable as RS in the article because......" – S. Rich (talk) 16:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I think what you meant to write was, "Does the removal of the Callahan text change the fact that Murphy's statements are acceptable RS?" I would say it doesn't change things. Murphy is still RS for the text attributed to it. Please withdraw your request for closure so that discussion can resume. Otherwise, this thread is going to remain stale and stuck. The alternative would be to withdraw this thread and start anew with a more clearly stated issue which relates to the current article text. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 16:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you appreciate the value of

anchoring

. (And my framing of the question/s was quite deliberate.) So, I will await fulfillment of this inquiry:

"The removal of the Callahan material changes the analysis of the Murphy material because..... and the Murphy material is RS because.........."

Please provide rationale for the missing portions. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 19:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I restated the question, and no reply has been forthcoming. Accordingly, I've removed the "awaiting" tags and the duplicate "stale" tag. As the

WP:BURDEN for keeping the Murphy personal blog in the article has not been meet, this RSN is ready for a decision and closing. – S. Rich (talk

) 14:48, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What kind of source do we need for a statement "Some historians speculate"

I've been trying to deal with

talk

) 17:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Page 200 of the 1972 edition. - Sitush (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Fisher is/was a member of the Indian Bar - see this. I'm not sure that two legal types are going to be great authorities for such a book. I note that the foreword was provided by Arnold Toynbee, which might nowadays be considered a kiss of death. - Sitush (talk) 17:45, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Oops, given the dates it would seem that should link to Arnold J. Toynbee. - Sitush (talk) 17:47, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I gather the diff is at [76]. The source, St. John's University School of Law, is RS. I suggest a quote from the law review article to put the material in context will help. – S. Rich (talk) 17:59, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused now - the publisher is Follett. - Sitush (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I guess I'm the one who's confused. You linked the bar review article, and that got me diverted. I'll guess that the bar review piece (1970) served as the precursor for Follett. Either way, would a quote help? (Also, Fisher is listed as a member of the Indiana Bar, not Indian Bar. ) – S. Rich (talk) 18:28, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

S. Rich, the source would clearly be reliable for the politics, etc of the modern Arab world. But sources aren't reliable necessarily for everything. How can they be a reliable source for what historians say? I also see that the Law Review article states the biblical stories as fact, which gives me more concerns than I had before.

talk

) 18:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The editor's talk page quotes the source as saying "Historians who concern themselves with the long ago speculate that Sheba made her journey to Jerusalem to win Solomon's consent for the travel of her caravans through Jordan, which then he ruled." It's my opinion that even quoting and attributing this doesn't help much as we have no idea what they are referring to. It begs the question 'what historians" and gives the reader no way to find out. As I've said, we should have academically recognized historians commenting on what historians say. Til, while arguing that we have no definition for historians, has found this [77] from the Cambridge Ancient History by Otto Eissfeldt which is the sort of source we should be considering.

(edit conflict) My apologies for the typo - I'm making a lot of those at the moment and yesterday even tried changing keyboard mid-edit to resolve the problem. Still, a member of a Bar is a member of a Bar. From the introduction to the 1970 paper, neither appear to have any qualification in a theological or history-based subject, unless you count law as history-based due to research/reliance on past rulings etc. Furthermore, it seems likely that the Sheba comment in the book is in the nature of an aside to their main thesis.

Page 200 is the first page of a chapter titled "Yemen the Land of the Queen of Sheba". All I can see of it is first first paragraph, reconstructed from searching the snippet views: "In biblical history the lady has long been known as the queen of Sheba. Secular historians often call her ancient realm Saba. She traveled from this country in the southwestern region of the Arabian peninsular northward along the Red Sea to visit Solomon in Jerusalem, and there, the scribe reports, "she communed with him of all that was in her heart". Of this communion, tradition has it, was born a son who became King Menelik. Historians who concern themselves with the long ago speculate that Sheba made her journey to Jerusalem to win Solomon's consent for the travel of her caravans through Jordan, when he then ruled. When one takes into account the Hebrew king's seeming obsession with sex, it is possible to imagine that the use of her body was part of the price she paid." There are no footnotes to that paragraph. I know almost nothing of the Bible and definitely nothing of this, but the wording all seems a bit fluffy to me. I think I would prefer to see the words of the "historians who concern themselves with the long ago" - if there are a few then presumably it should be possible for someone to track them down ... eventually. - Sitush (talk) 07:55, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with others above: we would need to quote or cite the historians concerned. Moreover, we would only do so if those historians are experts in the field (or highly notable for some other reason). If those conditions aren't met, the speculation isn't worth mentioning on Wikipedia. Andrew Dalby 09:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The whole page needs a copyedit, since it is written by someone without a native knowledge of English.

Its neutrality is flawed, also as a consequence. I.e. for example:

Among other things it was the home of the biblical "Queen of Sheba"

No one here surely needs to be told that the 'Queen of Sheba' story is almost unanimously considered legendary, and therefore 'she' cannot have an historical home. The tale of course, like many legends, probably contains traces of ancient trade information, the spice route etc. There is no evidence for Solomon's vaunted kingdom, and this is a post-Persian era fairy tale, grounded on the historicization of semi-legendary moral tale, much as occurs in Early Roman history.

the article by Otto Eissfeldt in the the Cambridge Ancient History is encyclopedically useless. A fine scholar of course, but that edition came out in 1973, and the whole Eissefeldt piece was written much earlier, and smacks of the 1930s. The assumptions made throughout it are simply not shared by archeologists anymore.

'Historians who concern themselves with the long ago speculate'. That is horrific writing at any level (a) all historians deal with what the writer ineptly calls 'the long ago', which sounds like a fumbling attempt to imitate in an English country vernacular the

Braudelian longue durée. One writes, if one must, the 'deep past'. (b) It is grammatically untrue: since the class of historians who study the deep past is a huge one, whereas its subset, historians of Sheba, is a very small, restricted field. 'who' here confuses the subclass with the main class. (c) When 'some' is used one must have a good specialist source that uses it, or name at least two specialist historians.Nishidani (talk

) 10:36, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Nishidani. I'm a bit embarrassed by the Eissefeldt gaffe, especially as I'd already commented on the original editor's talk page about using old sources that have since been shown to be wrong. I hope you'll make an attempt to deal with the neutrality issues. Andre Dalby is also right - we can't use 'historians' in general, as you both say we need current specialists who are known in their fields.

talk

) 17:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Otto E. point, the linked edition is dated 2000, although the first edition was 1973. This footnote says that the first four sections were originally published as a "fasicle" (?) in 1965. Do Cambridge regularly reprint without amending for modern research? - Sitush (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately

talk

) 13:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Where he's dismissed RSN, saying "That's how I remember the place. If they are now instead telling people - "No - any source that doesn't pass our POV litmus test xyz cannot even be mentioned on wikipedia", then the wrong people are now lurking around there". He's been edit-warring at the article and made it clear at

talk

) 10:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, there are multiple questions here. One, about how and where to present material relating to the Kebra Nagast and other material which is supported by a few religious groups relating to the alleged prehistory of Abyssinians/Ethiopians. It might, I don't know, present a basically similar story. It is accepted by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Rastafarians, and a few other groups which arose out of a broad "Ethiopianness" of the mid 20th century, and I assume any historians affiliated with those groups officially or otherwise would support it, thus qualifying as "some" historians. I don't know how broadly such stories are credited in outside sources. I've also seen sources saying that these beliefs tend to be supported primarily by two ethnic groups in Ethiopia, who according to some sources I think I might have mentioned to Doug earlier apparently use the Kebra Nagast and related works to give themselves a basis to assume a higher position in society than other groups. Certainly, the belief is held by the EOC, Rastafarians, and whoever else, and it should be somewhere. The question is how much and where.

I also remember, some years ago, a report on the BBC about how someone claimed to have found some archaeological remains in Yemen (I think) which were taken as indicative of the Queen of Sheba being ruler there. Unfortunately, don't know anything other than this kinda vague memory of an old news story.

At this point, I could see, somewhere, content saying that these groups believe the story, but I would have serious reservations about including anything about "historians". There are a freaking huge number of reference works, encyclopedias and the like, on religion in general and Christianity in particular, including at least a few on the Coptic-Ethiopic Christians. I think the best way to proceed would be to check the basic reference books on the local history first, see what they say, and then the religion based reference books. But, based on at least what I know from having gone over a few reference books in the various fields, I don't myself see that this topic necessarily merits much weight in any overview articles, at least content about what "historians" say, until content from historians who haven't been counted as tied to the believing religious groups is presented. John Carter (talk) 17:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I wasn't aware of an Ethiopian connection. It perhaps explains a couple of things. - Sitush (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

1. ^ http://www.bentongraphics.com/flipcheck.html
2. ^ http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/f22/f-22-specifications.html