Talk:Battle of Chawinda

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Territorial changes

The territorial changes section says that

India captures around 460 km (180 sq mi) of Pakistani territory

While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. LiamKhan469 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cinderella157:Then please remove it.LiamKhan469 (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: Request was made by a user banned for sockpuppetry bop34talkcontribs 12:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


In light of the sources mentioned below, should the result be changed from "inconclusive" to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory? Thanks --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock[reply]

Following are some independent sources that state that this battle result was an Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory:

Independent sources that states that this battle was a Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory
#Arming without Aiming: India's Military Modernization

India did not press the advantage and soon after suffered its own debacle in the Battle of Chawinda. When the Soviets offered mediation, New Delhi accepted, and India’s strategic condition remained unchanged

  1. Zaloga, Steven J. (1980), The M47 & M48 Patton Tanks, London: Osprey Publishing,

    both [India and Pakistan] proved adept with smaller forces in a defensive role such as the 2nd Armd. Bde. at Asal Uttar and the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes

  2. M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965

    Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended.

  3. Commanding Military Power: Organizing for Victory and Defeat on the Battlefield

    Among the notable defensive victories, however, were the Soviet defeat of the Japanese at Changkufeng Hill in 1938, Japan's repeated failures to retake Henderson Field on Guadalcanal between August and November 1942, the Indian failure to defeat the Pakistanis in the tank battle at Chawinda in the 1965 war fought between those countries, and Egypt and Syria's ultimately unsuccessful assaults on Israel through the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War.

  4. Valour Enshrined: 1947-1979 an Indian source

    In the overall context, the Chawinda attack was a failure and in the confusion after an unsuccessful operation, the valour of those who fought and died went unheard and unsung. But in the Regiment, the battle of Chawinda will always be remembered and honoured as one more example of bravery in the unending saga of Maratha chivalry.

  5. From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965

    with their successful defence of Chawinda, and the Indians' inability to take the town must have been demoralising for the troops. The casualties inflicted on Indian troops in the last assault on 19 September effectively meant that 1 Armoured Division was also no longer able to carry out major offensive operations from that date. It appears that tensions amongst the senior commanders of this operation did not assist and it seems that there was also a failure to command from the front, from brigade commanders down. The Indian commander on the whole western front was highly critical of his own forces

  6. Tank: 100 Years of the World's Most Important Armored Military Vehicle

    During the Battle of Chawinda, the largest armoured engagement since Kursk, Pakistani forces halted an Indian invasion of their country. In September 1965, the Pakistanis blunted a thrust by the Indian 1st Armored Division as each side fielded more than 250 tanks. Pakistani armor included the M48 and improved Sherman tanks of World War II vintage, while the Indians committed both Centurions and Shermans to the fight. When it was over, the Pakistanis had lost an estimated 44 tanks, while the Indians suffered up to 120 destroyed, although they later asserted that they had lost only 29 armored vehicles

  7. A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2

    The Indians then reinforce and push the Pakistanis back to their base at Chawinda, where the Indians are again halted on September 10. After the Indians defeat a counterattack, the Pakistanis take up defensive positions. Both sides now reinforce. Although the Indians substantially outnumber the Pakistanis in manpower, many of the Pakistani tanks are superior to those of the Indians, and their artillery has greater range. The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle.

  8. A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections

    On 12 September the Pakistanis tried without success to retake Phillora, and next day the Indians attempted to outflank Chawinda from the east but, in an impressive display of flexibility, the Pakistanis moved 19 and 20 Lancers and 1 FF (of 1 Armd. Div.) to its defence, and the Indian advance was halted after fierce fighting... An attack against Chawinda was planned for the 14th, but in a classic employment of good intelligence and efficient artillery the Pakistanis located the forming-up place of the Garhwali battalion that was to lead the assault and brought fire down on it. The battalion was forced to withdraw and the attack did not take place... On the night of 15/16 September the Indians again tried to outflank the main Pakistani force, this time by pressing west to Jassoran... then south to cut off Chawinda from the rear. Once the village was isolated, the Indians considered it would fall... but their armour was engaged so heavily by Pakistani anti-tank weapons that it could not advance further. The battalion held out until 17 September, when it was forced to withdraw to Jassoran

  9. The Independent

    He was credited with contributing to what has been regarded as a victory for Pakistan in the Battle of Chawinda, by holding back the Indian offensive towards Sialkot. The action has been described as the greatest tank battle since the Second World War, and Pakistan commentators called it “the graveyard of Indian tanks”. Hostilities were ended by a UN ceasefire.

  10. The Diplomat

    The Indian and Pakistani armies fought each other another 15 days, during the course of which both armies won their share of tactical victories — India in Phillora and Khem Karan, Pakistan in Chawinda — but none decisive enough to alter the ultimate result of the war. A ceasefire was called by the UN on September 22 and the Tashkent Declaration was signed between Ayub and Shastri in January 1966, thus bringing an end to hostilities.

    Blocked sock

*

WT:MILHIST notified.--101.53.225.41 (talk
) 20:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Comment: I also have noticed that this source is mentioned in the result field even though the source is talking about a stalemate at the whole Sialkot Front, not in this battle which was a part of Sialkot Front. --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock[reply]

Comment: As Mar4d has pointed out. Adding the link to previous RFC 2015 RfC, here the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" but then it was removed with a one-sided 2018 "RfC". 101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock

Comment Could I suggest that you provide fuller bibliographic details for the sources cited above. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC) It would also be useful to indicate which of these sources were not considered in the course of the previous RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory)

  • Comment sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with the "inconclusive" interpretation. I'd be curious if there are any military journals that look at this outcome. Since this is generally a contested subject, I suggest avoiding newspapers like The Independent or The Diplomat. The independent even says "what has been regarded as a victory" which begs the question, regarded by who? -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

::The sources that describe it as India's failure they at best fall in the Indian Defeat interpretation. If editors disagree with adding newspaper then I have no problem with it.-101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock

  • Oppose (Summoned by bot) taken in their overall balance, and mostly in particular, these sources endorse "Inconclusive", and none speaks of a clear victory/defeat AFAI can see - without WP:OR interpretation of their content. sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with … "inconclusive". I endorse everything Indy beetle & Cinderella157 say below. Pincrete (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Link to the 2015 RfC, where the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" before it was removed post the one-sided 2018 "RfC". Mar4d (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pakistani victory. Sources have been clear all along that it was the overall conflict that was "inconclusive". The final battle of that conflict, at Chawinda, was a decisive victory for Pakistan. Had it not been so, then the overall outcome would not have been so "inconclusive", imho.
    ed. put'r there 18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC on the Result - Pakistani Victory/Indian defeat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


As already mentioned, an RFC concluded that it was a Pakistani Victory. The decision was further reviewed and consensus was once again in favor of the RFC - Pakistani Victory.

The participants of this short talk page discussion concluded the battle was inconclusive.

Should the result of the Battle of Chawinda be "Pakistani Victory" or "Indian defeat"? Joooshhh (talk) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC) [reply]

  • Pakistani Victory It's cut and dry - as the reliable sources state - the Indians failed to attack, the Pakistanis successful defended themselves. Joooshhh (talk) 19:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close RfC This seems ridiculous to make an RfC after a block evading IP created one a few weeks prior and now an account with 17 edits on a page that is
    ECP? This does not seem like the correct protocol. – The Grid (talk) 22:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2023

Please add the following sections

==Other 1971 battles in the vicinity==
== See also ==

Thank you. 119.74.238.54 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Spintendo  04:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]