Talk:CHOBA B CCCP

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Requested move 14:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to

WP:UE, they were provided (primarily by Obi-Wan Kenobi) but were, to say the least, not exhaustive. A second move request would not be out of line. Nevertheless, the title in the Cyrillic script is emphatically rejected. Moved. Red Slash 10:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]


Back in the USSR (album); none of the references used in the article use the cyrillic "Снова в СССР", they use "Choba B CCCP", all Latin Letters. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 14:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

Also note previous discussion of this title

Talk:Концерт. —  AjaxSmack  14:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
I completely agree this is a bastardized transliteration, but it doesn't really matter because that's what sources call it - by a huge margin. It just so happens that people typing on english keyboards can easily type Choba B CCCP, perhaps not realizing that they aren't really typing russian letters but roman siblings. And as much as it might offend our sensibilities and irritate Russian-speakers, the fact is tons of english-language sources refer to this album in exactly this way, using roman characters. I suppose it's his fault for releasing an album without an "official" roman-character-english name. WP:AT is rather mum I believe on translation of the titles of works of art. Snova v SSSR would be terrible, as very few sources (if ANY!) refer to it in that way. In a way, you might consider "Choba B CCCP" as similar to "Peking" - an anglicization that has become part of the lingua franca.
Back in the USSR (album) would be a second choice, but seems to be used by many fewer sources, and if we have a very common, english-language name for an album, why not use it?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
I think it's insulting to blame McCartney for not releasing a live album promoted to a Russian audience under a Russian name with an English title. Hell, the typo in the later English release, in case the sources that discuss it as being "Russian for Back in the USSR", only points more to it being Russian.
WP:UE says that if we have an accepted translation, we use it, and the accepted translation is "Back in the USSR". Sceptre (talk) 22:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Blah blah blah. Geez it's just a wikipedia article, and it's just a discussion, so take a chill pill plz and stop acting all offended because of an aside. In any case, I'm not sure how it's inaccurate - this is exactly how it's rendered in thousands of sources, including rolling stone and Billboard and allmusic It's no more inaccurate than "Peking", which persists to this day. Normally I'd be ok with a translation for the title of an artistic work, but when the work was re-released in the US, it was released under the title "Choba B CCCP", and then re-released again, under that same title in 2011. Thus, I think it's a classic case of just following the sources where they lead us, and instead of going with a sanitized english translation, we should use what the sources themselves use. As a purist, it bugs me a bit too, and I actually don't mind the cryllic that much, but we do have to draw a line. There are thousands of Russian works that have been re-released in America, but I can't think of any that have been re-released with an anglicized Russian title. So, this is sort of an edge case.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, it is only an encyclopedia, so we shouldn't get bogged down in all these rules about naming conventions leading us down a path of having a title we all recognise is ugly for the sake of it. The American release's cover art actually calls it, transliterated, Snova b SSSR, but is subtitled "the Russian album". I'd place my bets on this, like Billy Joel's
ignore the rules, this is it. Sceptre (talk) 22:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Why not move it to just

Talk tonight) 14:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review
. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus obviously. Editors have different ideas of whether this British artist's title should be rendered as Cyrillic or Roman. I agree it's a tough question, and hope that editors will continue to try to find a resolution. (non-admin closure) (if anyone believes I'm wrong, that a reasonable admin would actually see a consensus here, please let me know and feel free to just revert my close.) Dicklyon (talk) 01:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]


talk) 00:00, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

In terms of both reading and the search feature, one can piece together the sounds and actually find the article using Latin letters. The Cyrillic characters may as well be cuneiform. I'm also not finding any English sources (or any sources) that actually use the form "Снова в СССP" on Google books or even a regular Google search, which argues very strongly against making it our title.--Cúchullain t/c 13:54, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair argument. As a compromise between recognizability, commonality, and not looking silly, I wouldn't mind all-uppercase
No such user (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
I don't have a problem with the all caps version CHOBA B CCCP, it seems to be well established in sources and it's what's actually on the album cover.--Cúchullain t/c 14:46, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be opposed to this, either.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose using alphabets, characters, symbols, etc. not common to English. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Move log
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to

No such user (talk) 07:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]


talk) 18:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Support either Cyrillic or all uppercase. While I would vastly prefer Cyrillic, or the transliteration Snova v SSSR, but I am willing to compromise with all uppercase. The current title, while it may be used in many reliable sources, is still erroneous, and since the alternatives are also supported by [edit: the majority of] reliable sources, I'd opt for one of them.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:29, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to
    WP:TRANSLITERATE: "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as [...] Russian names, must be transliterated. Established systematic transliterations [...] are preferred." Also might be relevant that the policy states, "However, if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic" — A few English sources use the current title, but the Cyrillic title "Снова в СССР" has 273,000 hits on (English) Google.com, while "Snova v SSSR" has only 3,530 and "Choba b cccp" has only 29,500, showing the clear preponderance of sources favouring the Cyrillic spelling, rather than transliterating it or erroneously reading it as Latin text. Goldenshimmer (talk) 01:37, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]
I'd also weakly support all uppercase Latin as a compromise; at least it would be better than the current title. Goldenshimmer (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've

been bold and recast the lead with the Cyrillic title and a translation. I still support moving to CHOBA B CCCP. Rothorpe (talk) 03:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

I've partially reverted this change; as I argue below, the Cyrillic rendition isn't in use for this album.--Cúchullain t/c 16:56, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not it's poor Russian, the Latin title "Choba B CCCP" is well established in sources, as was pointed out in the last 2 RMs. For example:[15][16][17][18][19][20] Capitalized "CHOBA B CCCP" should be fine as it's used in some sources and appears on the album cover. Other alternatives present in sources include
Back in the USSR (album)[22]. However, neither "Снова в СССР" nor "Snova v SSSR" are established enough in reliable sources to use here.--Cúchullain t/c 16:54, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, at least we agree that the article title should (or at least could) be CHOBA B CCCP. I thought my new lead summarised it rather well, though. No reason why 'Choba...' shouldn't go in as well, if it's commonly used. Rothorpe (talk) 17:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but if there's not enough consensus for that, definitely +1 for the idea of uppercasing. At least it would look vaguely like the Cyrillic letters it's meant to represent then.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:20, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support uppercase CHOBA B CCCP. I thought we reached a consensus last time that it's at least a lesser evil, and was unpleasantly surprised at the "no consensus" closure. Move it SOMEWHERE, for God's sake!
    No such user (talk) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support move to
    Snova v SSSR per Goldenshimmer. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:10, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Yes, Snova or CHOBA. But not Choba, because it's gibberish. Rothorpe (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose CHOBA, neutral otherwise. Choba isn't gibberish any more than CHOBA is - "Choba" is used by Allmusic and Billboard, it's consistent with WP:Manual of Style, and the Cyrillic version has letters that looks like capital-only and lowercase-only English letters ("H", "B", "a"). "CHoBa" or "CHOBa" would be the closest, but they are not in the sources. Peter James (talk) 21:08, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The sleeve has in capital Cyrillic: CHOBA B CCCP. That's SNOVA V SSSR transliterated. So CHOBA (which looks much the same in lower case, except for the a) is not in the same high gibberish class as Choba. Not even Wiktionary has a language to claim Choba. Rothorpe (talk) 02:16, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since this evidently has to be rehashed every few months, I'll copy my previous comments from above...
Thanks for directing attention to the green box. Yes, lots of good 'oppose' arguments there. It should never have been changed from CHOBA B CCCP. Rothorpe (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name in intro

The name in the intro should generally follow the article title per

WP:LEAD. Additionally, as pointed out in 3 RM discussions now, the Cyrillic version isn't widely used in English reliable sources, and the constructed title "Snova v SSSR" isn't used in any sources. Whether or not it's good Russian doesn't concern us, Wikipedia follows what reliable sources say.--Cúchullain t/c 04:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

Naturally the Snova v SSSR transliteration is not widely used, as Wikipedia has rather idiosyncratic style guides. The Cyrillic spelling is, however, widely used in reliable sources, both English and Russian (see Google Books — for ones in English, look for e-book editions, as the OCRed English books don't generally have the Cyrillic text searchable), and per
WP:TRANSLITERATE the article title should use the common name (Cyrillic), but transliterated into Latin characters (Snova v SSSR). Goldenshimmer (talk) 05:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
We need to go with what's the common name in reliable English-language sources, not what's ostensibly more proper Russian. In this case, the sources, and even the album cover, seem to be using the Latin characters (or other names like Back in the USSR and The Russian Album). If you've found any English sources that use the Cyrillic characters you've done better than me. If search engines aren't even returning hits for the Cyrillic characters it's a strong indication that they're not recognizable to English speakers.
As for Snova V SSSR, here's what
Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred. However, if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic". In this case the unsystematic "Choba B CCCP" is well established, while "Snova v CCCP" appears rarely if ever.--Cúchullain t/c 13:34, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:TRANSLITERATE is from WP:Article titles. You titled this section 'Name in intro'. Let's get the article title settled first. I still support the all-caps pseudo-Cyrillic for that, as it matches the sleeve, no matter how you read it. Rothorpe (talk) 15:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
The
WP:LEADSENTENCE should generally match the article title.--Cúchullain t/c 15:55, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
If you're using the lead sentence to support your preferred form of the article title, then why do you revert when the lead sentence is changed away from your preferred title? That seems like circular logic to me... Goldenshimmer (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't understand your point. I reverted back to the version that follows the article title. The versions it was changed to are not the article's title, and shouldn't be, as they're not established in English sources.--Cúchullain t/c 01:37, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sources for courses. They got it wrong, dammit! Must we promote ignorance? That said, we could start with a concession: 'Often referred to as "Choba B CCCP", ...' That would, it seems, be true. Rothorpe (talk) 02:51, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, thanks for clarifying. I thought you were arguing to have the title match the lede, rather than vice versa. Goldenshimmer (talk) 02:57, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest: 'Often rendered as "Choba B CCCP", Снова в СССР, literally Back in the USSR (also known as The Russian Album) is the seventh...'. With CHOBA B CCCP as the article title. Rothorpe (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If no one objects, i'll make this edit tomorrow. Rothorpe (talk) 02:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No objection from me, as it would be a distinct improvement over the current situation. (I still think that Snova v SSSR would be a better title, but I like your solution even so.) Goldenshimmer (talk) 05:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done. But I was unable to capitalise the article title. Rothorpe (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the need to include "Often rendered as", per

WP:LEADSENTENCE. Articles are about subjects, not titles. "Snova v SSSR" shouldn't be included, as it gives the impression that this is a usual rendering, and it's been pretty clearly established that it's not. And finally, the title shouldn't be capitalized unless the article is moved. My suggestion is: "Choba b CCCP (Снова в СССР, literally Back in the USSR, also known as The Russian Album) is..." If the article is moved to a capitalized title, the text can be capitalized, and if it's moved to the Cyrillic rendering they can be flipped.--Cúchullain t/c 01:42, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

We probably should also include Template:lang-ru.--Cúchullain t/c 01:48, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, let's get it moved. Anthony Appleyard, can you move this to CHOBA B CCCP, please? Or to the Cyrillic? Rothorpe (talk) 02:26, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Italics

Rothorpe asked at my talk page about where does the MoS say there should be no italics for Cyrillic. That would be

No such user (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

I think itallics are appropriate, as album titles are italicized. Perhaps we could handle the readability issue by adding « and » as is done in the Russian version of
Rite of Spring.--Cúchullain t/c 13:18, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
Perhaps as it's an anglophone album—a special case, and there are no Ms or Ts, and the article title is in italics and is intended to look like Cyrillic... Rothorpe (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We have already (consciously) IAR-ed with the title, which arguably violates MOS:CAPS. How about a creative solution of ''{{Small caps|Choba b CCCP}}'', rendered as Choba b CCCP? To me it looks aesthetically pleasing, satisfies MOS:ITALICS, and matches the article title (rendered in Latin, remember).
No such user (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
I don't think so. The first mention ought to follow the article title, which is in caps (and "CHOBA B CCCP" does appear in sources). It also doesn't solve what to do with the Cyrillic version, which still needs to be marked in some way to indicate it's the title of a work.-- Cúchullain t/c 14:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Italicizing Cyrillic aside, are you OK with replacing the instances of "Снова в СССР" in the text with CHOBA B CCCP throughout the article? In that way, we would use consistent spelling as in the title.
No such user (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes, except where the cyrillic form is specifically intended (ie, in the lead sentence's parentheses and one reference in the "Title and album cover" section). However it looks like that's pretty much done.--Cúchullain t/c 17:34, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Small caps

How about using latin small caps (e.g. CHOBA B CCCP)? ‑‑YodinT 17:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think that was one of the proposals, but the consensus was against it.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 12 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There's a rough consensus to leave it where it is. Andrewa (talk) 04:34, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 14:38, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

Check your LP again, the Melodiya release, the title is CHOBA B CCCP, not «Снова в СССР», and not Snova v SSSR. That is also it how it is commonly known. Article titles should be precise, matching the title of the work in question. Works can be titled however the artist wishes and issues of spelling and grammar fall under artistic license, so it is The Compleat Beatles, not The Complete Beatles, Odessey and Oracle, not Odyssey and Oracle, "Must of Got Lost", not "Must Have Gotten Lost". Piriczki (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a move the current title is simply wrong per
    Snova v SSSR either way a move is needed. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Per WP:CAPS shouldn't it be Choba b CCCP then? The album title was not written in Cyrillic as it was not intended for release in the Soviet Union. Piriczki (talk) 13:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Piriczki, where are you getting these ideas from? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tend to oppose. The current title was reached as a compromise after several long and hard rounds of discussion, all prominently visible above, with the rationale that it was the least bad of the alternatives. I wish the nominator had indicated awareness of those discussions. I don't think that there's even such a thing as a precedent for a cyrillic-title-commonly-rendered-in-latin, let alone that there should be a rule for it. The current title is a
    No such user (talk) 14:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose. As before, the current title is the
    WP:COMMONNAME in English sources, while the proposed title is not in wide use. See Google Books [23] vs. [24] Wikipedia articles follow what the sources use, not what's ostensibly more technically proper. Additionally, the album title is not in fact in Cyrillic script, it's in the Latin letters "CHOBA B CCCP". English sources also typically use that form rather than the Russian "Снова в СССР".--Cúchullain t/c 19:35, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose per usage in a preponderance of reliable secondary sources. Dekimasuよ! 18:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Number of tracks at the sessions…?

The article says that 20 songs were recorded at these sessions; information about the forthcoming (as of May 2019) remastering of McCartney’s live albums issued by his social media presence states that there were 22 tracks recorded. The new remaster will be of the 11 track Russian original. Jock123 (talk) 11:07, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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