Talk:Corleck Head

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Notes

  • "in the Hall's farm": "Hall" doesn't seem to be mentioned elsewhere. - Dank (push to talk) 21:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 20:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Looks like an interesting topic; I'll take a look this week. Hog Farm Talk 20:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The Corleck Head was discovered during the excavation of a large Neolithic site between 1832 and 1900," - not in the body of the article?
  • "but was not reported to archaeologists until 1948 after its prehistoric dating was realised by the historian Thomas Barron; " - the bottom of the article says that Barron contacted a national museum in 1937?
  • "The three heads may represent a trinity representing the unity of the past, present and future, ancestral mother-figures representing "strength, power and fertility" - would recommend adding this to the section in the body about the symbolism of the artifact
  • "Other local examples include [...] an object found in Glejbjerg, Denmark" - something from Denmark is a local example to an idol from Ireland?
  • Kelly 1984 and Kelly 1983 are listed as sources but don't seem to be used
  • Ditto with Rynne 1964
  • " The others are Cathedral Hill in Armagh town, the Newtownhamilton and Tynan areas in Armagh County, the most southern part of Lough Erne in County Fermanagh, and the Raphoe region in County Donegal." - cited to Rynne p. 78 but this is on Rynne p. 80 in the linked copy
    Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "include the wooden Ralaghan Idol (c. 1096–906 BC)" - not seeing where Rynne provides this date (Rynne's footnote expresses uncertainty as to where this belongs to the Hallstatt or La Tene cultures)
    Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take another look once these are addressed. Hog Farm Talk 01:57, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks v much; working through. Ceoil (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceoil: - I'd forgotten about this review. Please let me know when you're ready for me to continue. Hog Farm Talk 15:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceoil, @Hog Farm, I just noticed this was still open and thought you might like a reminder ping. -- asilvering (talk) 18:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Asilvering, @Hog Farm...I've been tardy here but will ping Hog in next few days for a final look. Ceoil (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm. sorry for the tardy response, real life disasters unfortunately, but I think all of your points have been met in last few days. I would be very please if you could reengage again, whether positively or with more suggestions/observations. Ceoil (talk) 00:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil - I don't think I'll be able to get to this for at least another few days. I still don't have a consistent internet connection after moving. Problems with getting service switched over. Hog Farm Talk 03:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no rush Hog and thanks. I usually only edit at weekends anyway, when you have time is grand, there is no panic with this one. Time would be fine as I do need head space (pardon the pun) to finish up on Doolittle before taking this, and its companion article, the Tandragee Idol, further. I do understand the pressure and multiple wiki obligations you have, and how it might bear down, weeks or months time is fine, and to note how appreciative I am for the detailed review thus far; very very helpful. Ceoil (talk) 07:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceoil: - this is still on my radar; I've just been much busier than I expected and it took longer to get the internet issue resolved than I expected. This is towards the top of the priority list for me, but I just need to be able to get a block of time to look at this. Hog Farm Talk 05:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Grand, and no hurry or problem. Ceoil (talk) 05:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing:

  • There is a CN tag outstanding that needs resolved
    Not done....its a reminder to self to find the source where I remember reading it from in last few days. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Done Ceoil (talk) 00:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The head was discovered in the c. 1855 during the excavation of a large Neolithic passage grave but also The Corleck Head was found around 1855 by the local farmer James Longmore while gathering stones to build a farmhouse. - is there disagreement in the sources about how the head was discovered?
    Clarified...it was unearthed during the excavation, but found by the farmer.. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which Barron collectively named the "Corleck Gods" - who is Barron?
    Move "the historian" to first instance. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was first brought to national attention in 1948 after its prehistoric dating was realised by the historian Thomas J. Barron" - this is in the lead and should also be in the body of the article
    Its said. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although many of the Ulster heads are now believed to be pre-christian," - should Christian be capitalized in this context?
    Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to Barron, he was approached in a bog one day holding a large stick-like object which turned out to be the Ralaghan Idol" - this seems to be missing a word
  • "you can't take what's ben offered." - is "ben" a spelling error or a transcripton of an error in the quote passage?
    Typo, fixed Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox has the spelling Corkick Hill - is that an error for Corleck?
    Fixed Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look back over the article once these are addressed. Hog Farm Talk 00:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • All addressed Hog, but can you give a week to respond before I do another c/e, so can try and eliminate the need for you focus so closely on prose. Tks Ceoil (talk) 01:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure - let me know when you're ready for me to revisit. Hog Farm Talk 01:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Hog Farm, and tinkered a bit following the above, and am ready for a final review now. Ceoil (talk) 00:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the reminder - I'll try to get to this over the next few days. Hog Farm Talk 13:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing:

  • The lead mentions 1948 as a significant date; this should be in the body as well
  • Fixed. Ceoil (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it was probably discovered in the nearby townland of Drumeague on the site of a large c. 2500 passage tomb that was then under excavation" - it's a bit unclear to me what the c. 2500 is measuring? Is it 2500BC?
  • Fixed. Ceoil (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Required spot-checks:

  • "There and later claims are circumstantially supported by a number of Iron Age burial sites found to contain decapitated bodies or severed skulls." - OK
  • "As with most extant Iron Age stone idols found in Ireland, it is cut from limestone" - I'm struggling to find this in Rynne 1972 - can you point me to where this is in the source? I've been trying to cut down on my caffeine intake and I'm probably just missing it
    Ugg. Have removed the claim for now until I re-find the source for that (have been searching running through the various dead tree books, ebooks and jstor pdfs). I really need to create a parent for these objects; am toying with either Ancient Celtic sculpture or Celtic stone idols.[1]. This would take away some of the heavy lifting in explaining context that the article is currently carrying. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging Johnbod who is likely familiar with the subject matter and may have a view. Ceoil (talk) 20:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A small number of faces on contemporary Irish and British anthropomorphic examples have similar closely-set eyes, slim mouths and broad noses" - not seeing the reference to the slim mouths on p. 80 of Rynne?
Added a 2nd ref to Waddell (2023), p. 321, which taking from Rynne says "...round eyes..simple mouth and wedge shaped noses." Ceoil (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I've got time for this evening. Hog Farm Talk 01:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no rush and thanks once again, all good points. Ceoil (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the continued delay:

  • "The Corleck head cut from local from limestone" - something has gone wrong here grammatically
    Done. Am due a visit from the GOCE before this goes to FAC. Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To finish up the spot-checking stuff, would you be willing to provide the quotes from sources if possible for three or so passages that should be straight-forward to quote support for? That might be easiest as I don't have access to most of the sources. Hog Farm Talk 00:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that sounds good to me. Im traveling at the moment, so dont have the books, bud do have all the journal pdfs. Ceoil (talk) 13:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's go with:

  • "The Corleck head has not received significant scholarly study, outside of research by Barron and the folklorist and Celtic scholar Anne Ross"
  • "Emily Bryce, a relative of the Halls, remembered childhood visits throwing stones at it"
    Smyth 2012, p. 24: "In 1935, Barron 'came to know' of the Corleck head and reported it to the National Museum.[35] 1937, the stone head was collected and brought to Dublin by Dr Adolph Maher, director of the National Museum of Ireland.[36] Up to that time the three-faced Corleck head had been positioned on the top of a gate post leading into the Hall family's farm at Drumeague. Emily Bryce, a relative of the Hall family, recalled how 'as children on a day visit' to their 'grandfather Sam Hall', they would fire stones at the Corleck head."[37] Ceoil (talk) 20:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Note this passage is cited to Barron who did the primary research and interviewed Bryce. Ceoil (talk) 20:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The hole at its base indicates that it was once attached to a larger structure, perhaps a pillar comparable to the now lost 6 ft (1.8 m) wooden pillar found in the 1790s in a bog near Aghadowey, County Londonderry which was capped with a figure containing four heads"
    I have some of this to hand. The Aghadowe pillar is this, a screenshot from Waddel 1998 p. 361, while Waddell 2023 p. 375 says "A wooden carving 1.8m tall was found in a bog at Ballybritin, just north of Aghadowey and South of Coleraine, County Derry, in the eighteenth century and is known only from a crude thumbnail sketch in the [1836 OS]. The brief accompanying account, however is quite informative: "...It was a long circular block of wood like the trunk of a tree and about 6 feet long. At the top there were 4 heads each looking different ways with 4 faces and carved hair."
    Re the hole at its base; this is covered in most mentions, eg Fintan O'Toole says "A small hole in the base of the head suggests that it was secured to some kind of pedestal. One of the mouths also has a small circular hole, a feature that links it to several carved heads from Yorkshire."100objects.ie] Ceoil (talk) 00:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The two are joined together in Waddel 1998, Ó Floinn 2002, and Smyth 2012. I only reffed Waddel 1998 as this seems to be where the connection was first established, although it seems to have been a thing - again a parent article is needed; am researching. Ceoil (talk) 00:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are from the books, not the journals so it's okay if it's awhile before you can get to this. I'll be very very busy for at least next week. Hog Farm Talk 00:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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