Talk:Czech nobility

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Should the Liechtensteins be listed here? They had wide lands in Moravia, I believe, up until 1945.

Liechtensteins moved to Moravia and claimed to be residents there until the WW2, also their major manor is located in Eisgrub (Lednice) Moravia, unfortunatelly for them their possesions were confiscated in the aftermath of WW2 and the whole family was expelled from the country.IEEE 14:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Princes von und zu Liechtenstein are Austrian, Moravian, etc. just because as well to many others, like the Schwarzemberg (Prince Karl) who is a Durchlaucht and "Fürst" is Swiss and Czech today, but his origin is undoubtedly Austrian, and we can go on with the Hohenlohe Waldenburg, Starhemberg, Nostitz, Windischrätz, and lots of others. Someone had forgotten that the high Nobility had lands all over the Empire and the marriages were amongst them, without taking into account if they were originally Austrian, Bohemian, Magyars, Croats, Poles, Germans, or French, which is the case of the Rohan-Apponyi family, originally de Rohan Guéménée, the senior branch of this French family which left France during the terror in 1792, they are considered Hungarians with lands in Moravia but never part of the Bohemian nobility, Prince Albert is the head of the family, a former Austrian ambassador in Buenos Aires and other countries). I did not find the Quiqueran-Beaujeu an Austrian family of the oldest nobility, which arrived to Austria from France in times of Louis XIV, Ferdinand Quiqueran Beaujeu the current head of this extremely aristocratic family was married in first place to a Countess von Bissingen und Nippenburg, and all of his sons and daughters were married to Austrian nobles. I must emphasize that a real and complete search of who is who, or who was who in times of the Monarchy will take several years. Princess Mercedes von Dietrichstein is Austrian, born in Nikolsburg before the Nazi invasion in 1936, she has her castle in Moravia, not far away from the border with Austria, and she had a claim over Schloss Nikolsburg (now Mikulovo), the Czech authorities did not hand over the castle to her, but they reached an agreement, so she had loaned many paintings to her castle and has the right to live there whenever she wants. Others like Prince Schwarzenberg or Count Deym were both very lucky indeed; they got back some of their confiscated properties in times of Benes. Others we are still waiting to recover something, in spite of the fact that our parents were against the Nazi regime, or in many cases murdered by them, or gone to exile.

Names or surnames must be in form, used by family itself. Lobkowicz use surname Lobkowicz, not Lobkovic, Karel Schwartzenberg is not Švarcnberk (see http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?ido=3&idj=1&amb=1&ikony=False&trid=1&prsl=False). Czechized form is nonsense, because really Czech form is "Lobkowicz", "Zierotin", because this form is oldest Czech and today used by members of families. Surnames are used by living, real peoples, and they don't want be named badly. Please, have respect to their names. Your edits are too close to Czech POV. (I´m Czech and I´m sure, what surname use my family and other old families). Yopie 23:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think that the Lusatian and Silesian nobility counts as Bohemian nobility. Lusatia and Silesia are independent historical entities which just belonged to Bohemia for some time.Karasek (talk) 14:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Silesia and Lusatia were not independent entities, because they were not independent. They belonged to Bohemia for circa 800 years (of course, Czech Silesia and formal status of Lusatia is different story). So, "Bohemian nobility" is judicial terminus technicus, because nobility with indigenat and incolat in Bohemia was with same right in all Bohemian lands. Nobility have estates in all parts of Bohemian lands. --Yopie 15:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

800 years? Upper Lusatia, my home, was part of the Margraviate of Meissen until 1002, then part of Poland for 30 years, then part of Meissen again, then part of Bohemia, then part of Brandenburg, then part of Bohemia again, then finally part of Saxony and Prussia. Bohemia is really an important and in many ways formative part of our history, but I fail to see why the local nobility should be considered Bohemian and not Saxon or even Brandenburgian? The list of the article also doesn't show a single Lusatian or Silesian noble house.

I don't dispute the fact that, for instance, Lusatia and Silesia were part of the Bohemian crown. We here in Lusatia call it "Nebenland" (maybe best translated as tributary land) and are actually quite proud of it, but I don't believe that the local nobility can be called Bohemian... and certainly not Czech, which shouldn'd be mixed anyway.

So, either leave out any mention of Lusatia and Silesia or cite a reference that these noble houses can be considered Bohemian.Karasek (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, that Czech and Bohemia cannot be mixed. So, terms "Bohemian" (as for Bohemia proper) and "Bohemian (as shortened "belonged to Lands of the Bohemian Crown") must be differenced too. Nobility in list was from Bohemia proper, Moravia, Silesia, Lusatia (Nostic) etc., but they were judicialy Bohemian nobility. Please read first same book about nobility and nobilitary law, specially about incolat. --Yopie 16:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

Your link doesn't work. Well, if you can provide a reference which clearly supports this view I will have no problem with it. Sure, judiciary they were Bohemian (I have seen the Lusatian coat of arms at Prague Castle). But only for some time, because the rulers of Lusatia and Silesia changed quite often. Therefore it's, at last for me, much more logical to classify these noble house by the historical region (Lusatia, Silesia, Bohemia+Moravia) they are from, and not by judiciary dependences. I checked the family of Nostitz/Nostic at Neue Deutsche Biographie, and they support my view. According to them they were a Upper Lusatian and Silesian family. Later one branch of the family became Bohemian because he moved to Bohemia. I also checked the family of Schaffgotsch, a famous Silesian family. They are considered Silesian-Bohemian by NDB, because one branch of the family lived in Silesia, the other one in Bohemia. Karasek (talk) 10:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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