Talk:Gjon's Tears

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I am starting a discussion about whether the lead should say he's an "Albanian-Swiss" singer or simply "Swiss".

I have extended-confirmed protected this article for one week while the dispute is worked out. Any extended-confirmed editor can make noncontroversial changes to the article during the protection period. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,I don't even know where to start. As I said his parents are from Albania and Kosovo (Father from Kosovo and Mother from Albania) when he was born "Kosovars" didn't have their own passport^[1] while Albania had. So (even if it is an assumption) he Had to use an Albanian passport(from his mother) as a document until he received the Swiss one since in order to take Swiss citizenship he had to wait many years^[2].Now, what is the problem having "Albanian" ethnicity? He's carrier started in Albania when he appeared in "Albanians Got Talent" show (yes he used to sing and perform before that but not in a stage), he tried to represent Albania in Eurovision 2 times ^[3], he has a hit song in Albania which topped charts^[4], he is currently in Albania giving interviews in media and will do a tour in different regions in Albania. The guy removing the "Albanian" part says "We do not care about origin" and add "Greek singer" to Eleni Foureira song, this double standards. For example when I see Stefania who was born in Netherlands it's mentioned Greek-Dutch. I didn't remove Swiss in the page, I only reverted the removed Albanian nationality. Giving reference to other Albanian artists because they don't have Albanian nationality in the beginning it's not an argument,the other artists have different backgrounds compared to Gjon, his nationality is relevant and he doesn't have an almost-exclusive carrier in Switzerland,if it's the same we should remove "Greek" to foreign artists who have Greek origins. I have no problem seeing Greek mentioned but why this is a problem for having Albanian. The guy who I'm arguing is only removing Albanian nationality in most of he's edits. He gave no comment why he removed the Albanian part until I rv his edits and started saying "WE DO NOT CARE" who is "WE"? That's why I assumed that was trolling in the first time but when he gave explaination it felt he was targeting Albanian artists and felt somewhat racist. I wasn't in Foureira's page (check it if you want). To whoever reading this please try to understand my reasoning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:E211:4400:D9F0:8680:A420:2DA4 (talk) 02:33, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The only sufficient reasoning to put "Albanian" in the lead would have been if an Albanian nationality existed in proof, all the other stuff are totally irrelevant. And no I'm not discriminating Albanians, more rather following precisely the rules of wikipedia which have to provide very accurate and specific information. And just saying I was the one I reverted an edit in Greek wiki in Anxhela Peristeri's wiki page that smn referred Anxhela as "Greek" in the lead and not "Albanian". And yes, the account "Eurofan2000" is also mine. So the one about my "aversion" to Albania/ns is totally out of place. Anyways, passport is what makes u taking the eponym of the country and till an official source reassuring his passport is found "Albanian" is practically not feasible to be put in the lead. ~John07234 (talk) 13:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does it matter whether or not he has an Albanian passport? The Manual of Style page that you linked earlier in an edit summary (

MOS:BIO) does not mention passports at all, only whether or not it is relevant to the subject's notability. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 13:38, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Both matter, if u check comment made in Dua Lipa's view source it says she is written as "British" and not "British-Kosovan" as there is not a reliable source that proves an Albanian citizenship. Same goes with Gjon so only "Swiss" should be mentioned in the lead, every other stuff mentioned above is irrelevant.John07234 (talk) 18:10, 20 June 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.212.246 (talk) [reply]

Ah, I did not know about that. I also found a current discussion on the policy's talk page about this and it seems that the consensus is indeed that ethnicity should not be included in the lead, even if the person has a big part of their career in that country. I think I just misinterpreted what "relevant to the subject's notability" meant. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then I think we can agree to put only "Swiss" in the lead, can't we? John07234 (talk) 19:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. The other person hasn't replied in a while. I left a message on their talk page, otherwise it can be removed again, probably with an explanatory comment to inform future editors. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

He did not provide a sufficient explanation though and wikipedia isn't just about agreeing with sth or compromising, it is about providing reliable and accurate info. I can't see why you are still failing to accept my arguments, this is not a subjective topic. John07234 (talk) 06:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is very much about building consensus. Maybe we didn't understand their argument or they have other arguments that they just haven't presented yet. And especially in cases where there's an edit war between editors, you want people to come to an agreement. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 06:52, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but we have to be consistent with logic and not accept sth just because it's the one the other wants to hear/read. John07234 (talk) 07:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote a whole essay and you still you claim I didn't "provide sufficient explanation" I will not rewrite stuff READ my previous message, also how about we remove the Greek part in Stefania's page since she was born in Netherlands? You want citizenship info? Do you have any source he has a Swiss citizenship? I'll wait. You are literally targeting Albanian artists pages altering info and you say:"Yeah but we have to be consistent with logic and not accept sth just because it's the one the other wants to hear/read" how in the world you make this argument? It's about you not me. You keep changing stuff because you want your version. I stopped coming here since I thought it's over but no.

Also using Dua Lipa as an example is irrelevant. Since the talk page there is hotly contested and there's a depate about it. Btw she is mentioned as "English" not "British" since she sings in English and her nationality isn't mentioned in the lead. Unlike Dua, Gjon has a career in Albania even if it is small and even started his career there. I didn't said Gjon was "Kosovan" I said Albanian since he is half "Kosovan". I gave all that info and arguments to be used to future debates as a answer, I answered most of the "new" messages in my first message but all my effort was ignored somehow. I already wasted more time an effort to this that I should. Why is always a problem to mention "Albanian" ethnicity, btw read my first message I gave a lot info and then reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:E246:E300:5937:463A:124B:2AB9 (talk) 00:38, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I did read your comments. I definitely agree that he has a career in Albania, and you indeed have gone into detail about that. The reason why John and I agreed to remove it is because according to Wikipedia's guideline, it should not be included in the lead unless it's part of why the subject is notable. In this case, Gjon is mostly notable because he participated in Eurovision, and not because he is Albanian. The article does go into detail about his Albanian ethnicity, so it's not like information is lost here.
(Side note: if you want to be notified when a discussion happens, I recommend that you create an account. That makes it easier for others to notify you, and then you can add this page to your watchlist.) ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 00:49, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

He is notable in Albania/Kosovo and Albanian diaspora because of his Albanian ethnicity and his small carrier there. He almost participated twice for Albania in Eurovision, most of his fanbase is Albanian. He will do tours in many regions within Albania and Kosovo for that specific reason. He is more famous in France than in Switzerland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:587:e246:e300:5937:463a:124b:2ab9 (talk) 02:02, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't know how I missed your reply. But him being Albanian is not the reason why he's notable. If everyone was talking about him because of his Albanian ethnicity, then yes it should be mentioned. But Gjon is mostly notable for his music and Eurovision, so his ethnicity should not be mentioned in the lead. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]