Talk:Half-diminished seventh chord

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This chord can be found in three scale-types, not just two. (I've added the diminished scale.)Prof.rick 07:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find few jazz musicians who will routinely play a half/whole diminished chord over the chord. For one, the diminished 4 (enharmonic major 3) clashes with the chord sound, and combined with the b7 implies a dominant chord function rather than a subdominant chord function, which the half-diminished chord overwhelming serves in the classic II-V pattern. Furthermore, its considered a synthetic scale, and most (if not all) tertian chord sounds are derived from the major and three minor scales. Also, if we were just going by what scales contain the chord tones of a half-diminished, we could also throw in there the second modes of the melodic minor and harmonic minor in addition to the seventh mode of the major, and sixth mode of melodic minor. But since that's not what we're doing when we're talking about what scales they're derived from, we don't do that. We're more interested in the complete chord scale sound with relationship to the chord, and Locrian and Locrian natural 9 are the sounds which are in common practice.Havic5 06:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The half-diminished symbol (ie ^Ø) does not seem to be in the Unicode standard (at least I can't find it), and the current way of showing it is not all that great. Is there an alternative, better way? --Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 05:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Music&oldid=40998738#Musical_mark_up. Hyacinth (talk) 22:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that audio request at the top just for the sound of a half-diminished chord? And would a MIDI count? If so, I could make one. --Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 05:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I uploaded a midi file but i can't figure out how to display it properly on the page. Please help out if you can.

I couldn't figure out how to fix it either, so I moved it up to the top. It's not perfect, but I think it's better. –Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 23:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The example for Half-diminished seventh chord on supertonic in C minor looks to me like it is built on the tonic rather than the supertonic. Shouldn't it be D F Ab C instead of C Eb Gb Bb as per the text? Pounderd (talk) 20:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it mentioned here, but...

I would also mention that Graham H. Jackson (The Spiritual Basis of Musical Harmony, 2006, pgs. 130,135) interprets it as the counterpart of the dominant seventh (functionally, too), except in the undertone series - being generated from the top note. He shows minor chords as being generated from the top note, e.g. the A minor chord is generated from the undertones of E. Then its minor subdominant chord is generated from A downwards - A-F-D, or A-F-D-B to make it a functionally-similar "half-diminished seventh" or "minor sixth" chord, then the minor dominant E-Bb-G, then a "half-diminished seventh" from the generating tone E again - E-C-A-F# - which leads into F#-D-B (a key change to B minor, if the bottom note is considered the tonic). Esn (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is my first contribution to Wikipedia. Apologies if I am doing it the wrong way. This article on the half-diminished chord is interesting and rich in content, and could be improved by various edits. -- I feel the opening could be more clear and "introductory", making reference to other seventh chords including the fully diminished chord (see suggested version below); -- the terminology/symbols section should not mix statements about functionality (and I am not sure why one paragrph is indented), -- the excellent functionality section could have better transitions between the 3 functions. -- I think that the 2nd paragraph mistakenly uses "tonic" when what is meant is root or reference note. -- Some ambiguous use of pronouns (it) could be clarified. -- Reference to bars 11-12 of Scot Joplin's 'Entertainer' should be corrected (I believe it should be bars 13-14). -- the sample audio buttons don't work. (In the 'Tristan chord' article, the audio sample buttons work well.) -- the "See Also" section should include a link to seventh chords.

- Suggested introduction:

The half-diminished seventh chord consists of musical scale notes at positions 1, b3, b5, b7 (aka root, flat third, flat fifth, flat seventh), and the respective intervals formed are: minor third, minor third, major third. (In music theory, a seventh chord involves 4 notes -- 1, 3, 5, 7 -- and the interval between any two consecutive notes is either a major third or a minor/flat third.)

Structurally, the half-deminished seventh chord somewhat resembles the fully diminished chord (both chords feature a diminished triad), but the sound and function of the two chords are different. Among various types of seventh chords, the half-diminished seventh chord is in many respects the star of the seventh chord harmonic cast; many songs in the classic American popular song repertoire reserve it for their most intensely expressive moments.

In diatonic harmony, the half-diminished chord occurs naturally by starting on the seventh note of any major scale (for example, Bø7 in C major) and playing every other note within the scale. It also occurs naturally by starting on the second note of any natural minor scale (e.g., Dø7 in C minor) and playing every other note.

THe half-diminished seventh chord is referred to, more simply, as the half-diminished chord. It is also known as the "minor seventh flat five" chord. The "Tristan chord" is a particular voicing of the half-diminished seventh chord, but only used with reference to a very specific note order and harmonic function.

Structure/Derivation and Notation/Symbols:

In the context of a major seventh chord, a half-diminished chord can be formed by lowering (flattening) the 3rd and the 5th and the 7th note. Alternatively, you can raise the root note one semi-tone (keep all other notes the same) to create a half-diminished chord belonging to a new scale (starting on the new root). In the context of a minor seventh chord, a half-diminished chord can be formed by lowering (flattening) the 5th note only (hence the alternative name "minor seventh flat five" chord). Alternatively, you can raise the root and the 3rd and the 7th to arrive at a half-diminished chord belonging to a new scale (starting on the new root).

Jazz musicians typically consider the half-diminished chord as derived from one of three scales: ...etc.

A half-diminished seventh chord is notated/symbolized using a circle with a diagonal line through it, as in Cø7 or simply Cø. It also can be represented as m7♭5, −7♭5, m7(♭5). In contrast to the half-diminished chord, the symbol for a fully diminished chord is a circle without any line through it.

Function:

The half-diminished chord has three functions in contemporary harmony: predominant, dominant, and diminished function.

The "predominant" function involves a 2-5-1 progression, where the half-diminished chord serves as a 2 chord, leading to the dominant 5 chord which, in turn, leads the 1 chord. Since the half-diminished chord is built on the diatonic 2 chord of a minor scale, this 2-5-1 pattern resolves to a minor tonic in the vast majority of cases (such as in the progression Dm7♭5 – G7♭9 – Cm), but there are instances where there is a major tonic resolution. When the dominant 5 chord is voiced as a rootless dominant seventh chord with a flat ninth, there is only a one note difference between the 2 chord and the 5 chord; this fact enables efficiency in movement (voice leading).

In the "dominant" function.... etc.

The "diminished" function is rare, and involves using the half-diminished chord as a "passing" chord, similar to the way in which a fully diminished chord is often used...etc.

[And so on. The rest of the article is rather technical and difficult for me to follow, but it seems that it should fall under a final category, something like "Special Uses" or "Particular Instances" of the half-diminished chord. I would perhaps move the interesting comment about the Tristan chord down to this section.

All the best. Danbleed (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]