Talk:Intercession of saints

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53:26 is taken out of context and mistranslated, Arabic is my first language, the last part of the verse means exept for whom he wants and accepts (could be both the intercessor and the person being Interceeded for too) , I'll find a supporting translation somewhere ;) --The Brain 21:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This focus of this article is a specifically Christian practice. It should not be a forum for non-Christians (or even Christians!) to hash out their theological differences or to try to convert one another, but to describe the practice, its history, its context, and so forth. If Muslims do believe in intercession of saints, then information of this length may be warranted if it were original material, but still No sermons! That said, these are mostly quotation piled on top of quotation. This is not the wikipedia way.

As interesting as the Muslim information is, it ought to be moved (if it is not there already) to the more general Intercession article, or perhaps wikisource, with a link ("see also") from here and (a very few) select quotes to illustrate the different positions within Muslim practice.

→ (AllanBz ✎) 09:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have requested a citation for this claim and have reverted citations which merely linked to two other Wikipedia pages. Wikipedia is not considered a verifiable source. My concern is that this doctrine is NOT common to the vast majority of the world's Christians. It is a doctrine common to Roman Catholicism. The user who added these citations to the article (User:72.145.42.109) also amended:

• "from the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as "High Church" Anglican/Episcopalianism and certain Old Lutheran perspective"

so that it read

• "From the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as Anglican/Episcopalian and old line Lutheran perspective".

This is not true.

If a source for the top line claim isn't found within a fortnight then I intend to re-write it to make clear that this is a Roman Catholic doctrine (which is what it is) rather than a doctrine common to Christianity as a whole. 87.127.44.154 05:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from "Sine Nomine." I would like to see the primary source citation(s) showing the earliest references to this practice in the primitive church.

.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.249.61.66 (talk) 16:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Point One: If the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church support the doctrine, then it is common to the majority of christians, those two combine are nearly 70% of all world wide christians.

Point Two: As a life long Anglican, the Thirty-Nine Articles pushed the Via Media of the Church of England. After the Oxford Movement and its pushing of the Anglican Church toward a more Roman Philosophy those Articles are no longer seen as always being the "Middle Way" and are not followed by many of the world's Anglicans. So yes, many, not all, Anglicans believe in intercession of the saints

71.176.27.54 (talk) 20:28, 31 January 2009 (UTC) Ian 1/31/09 3:27pm EST[reply]

So should it say those Anglicans who reject the 39 Articles? Nitpyck (talk) 06:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which Reformed/Calvinist denominations accept this doctrine??? Nitpyck (talk) 06:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are no citations showing who believes these Bible verses prove the validity of intercession of saints. The first with the lesson- some people won't believe even if the dead rise, doesn't on it's face make the point. Christians who believe in the Trinity wouldn't accept the argument- praying to God(Jesus) works so praying to good people(saints) will also work. So the verses are not sufficient. The section needs reliable sourcing. Nitpyck (talk) 01:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are partially correct in that there is scant (ifany) biblical basis, and that the article has not done a great job of either explaining or sourcing the ideas.

However, as of the 4th-5th century (and even before) both in the Eastern and Western Churches formal traditions of seeking intermediaries (both angels and saints) existed and there are scholarly studies on how the paradigms for approaching these intermediaries for more effective prayers were developed within the Christian culture. An example is: Subtle bodies: representing angels in Byzantium by Glenn Peers 2001 Univ of Calif Press

ISBN 0520224051 page 144 [1]

. Peers also discusses how the use of icons of the saints and angels developed as a companion to the prayers.

I am not working on this topic now, but next year, who knows. History2007 (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The early Christians apparently believed and were taught this. Rev 5:8 - The angels and saints in heaven present our prayers to God. Rev 4:8 Those in heaven pray for us. (I can appreciate that Revelations can seem a bit dense sometimes).

"Communion of Saints" is from a 1st century prayer. Luke 15:7 Those in heaven (very righteous) care for us. The rest seem to be "by inference" from other cites. That is, they all infer belonging to the "same body" living or dead. Rom 8:35–39 Death cannot separate us from Christ (or the rest of the body either). There are a number of others in this category. Student7 (talk) 14:16, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That will be a long discussion. There is no doubt that there were teachings on the intercession of saints and angels but exactly when they were formalized and became widely held is a longer story. I will try to do something by April/May 2012... I hope. History2007 (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Pharisees had just won their argument with the Saducees about life after death at or near the time that Jesus preached. The Books of Maccabees shows this belief (a woman calmly watches her sons butchered by invaders and meets the same death herself), but was discarded by the Jews after the Christians became prominent. The point being that "It's not in the Old Testament" because it was too new."

Nor, since the apocalypse was thought by New Testament authors to be occurring "soon", was there even time for saints to be recognized. Student7 (talk) 18:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whether you think it's dense or not isn't relevant, you're pushing a point of view. 86.41.88.115 (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, 5:18 is fairly clear. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." (boldface mine). Saints have always been "dead" people. Why would the saints bother to pray? To be perfectly clear, I did not "discover" this verse myself. This is one of the basis of argument from the Church. Student7 (talk) 13:40, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dumping it here, in case it is ever needed, before I forget: wstawiennictwo.
—6birc (talk) 03:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]