Talk:List of Sesame Street Muppets

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Betty Lou was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 20 January 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into List of Sesame Street Muppets. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

somebody switched Robin the frog with the superheroe Robin, and replaced all the info with that. I couldn't find anything to help fix this problem, so if anyone knows anything about robin, please put it in. Ritzbitz00 (talk) 17:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any record of Robin the Frog appearing on Sesame Street. Batman and Robin, on the other hand, did appear in animated form (a la

Superfriends, so the Casey Kasem credit is apparently correct) in early episodes. Powers ^T 19:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Why is there a column with random letters in it called "type"? There is no explanation for what this column is for, or what the letters mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlebum2002 (talk • contribs) 12:54, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that "type" is a past attempt to categorize the characters, whether they're an animal or muppet or human. I'm sure you'll agree that it's kind of a silly attempt. You may notice that it's been a while, but I've worked on this list in the past. I started going through the list and removing all the characters without a reliable source or reference. Then I dropped it because I decided that other SS articles were more important.

There really are two lists here, and the first one needs to be combined with the second. I've noticed that most of the entries in the first list aren't sourced and should be removed. You'll notice I got as far as the "G"s. Eventually, that list should disappear. If anyone else wants to continue it, knock yerself out. I may return to it eventually; this list really needs improvement. I'd like to go through all the sources I have and use them to improve each entry and have an article created about each one. In other words, a huge project that overwhelmed me and I decided to spend my time on less scary ones, like revamping its parent, Sesame Street, something I'm in the process of doing these days. (I'm only being slightly facetious.) Please assist if you'd like, and make sure that you sign your posts. Christine (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Circumstances of Mr. Calloway leaving the show and passing away do not match the ones (with supporting references) found at Northern Calloway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hylobius (talk • contribs) 15:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As per discussion on my talk page, a policy of sorts has emerged regarding the sources for this list. This list is not Muppet Wiki, which is an excellent resource, or Muppet Central. Both (and other sites) are fan sites and subject to lower standards of reliability. As a result, criteria for inclusion in this list needs to be higher. I suggest that the editors of this list do their best to follow it.

1. Relible, third-party sources
   .
2. Primary sources, such as DVDs, episodes, and YouTube/Sesame Street.org clips. See
   WP:PSTS
   .
3. Sesame Street.org lists, and other tertiary sources.

If there are no secondary source for an item, the editor should move on to the second criteria, and then to the third, and that needs to be cited. The assumption is that if the source for an item is from Sesame Street.org, the editor has exhausted the prior two criteria. Please do not include an item if you remember seeing it when you were a four-year old yourself. Christine (talk) 13:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That includes the primary source of watching an episode yourself, but please note what episode and/or skit the character appeared in. The information needs to be

verifiable. - jc37 21:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply

]

Also, if we are to split, I think splitting between Muppet, human, and animated characters would be the most natural. - jc37 21:37, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the answer to your question is above; just scroll up to the section "Type"?. Eventually, I could see the first list going bye-bye.

Another thing I can see happening is splitting this list into several ones, especially if it's as complete as we'd like. Sesame Street.org has said there have been over 1,000 characters in 40 years. It's already pretty long. Christine (talk) 02:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the sortable list was an attempt to get more out of it, didn't work. This is probably the best judgement of notable characters, but the 1000+ character line really goes into the irrelevant, like "Blue-Feathered Swallowing Swallow", in the 2008 direct-to-video Sesame Street special Love the Earth! I'd suggest we figure out what makes a character notable... perhaps:

* appearance between at least two of the following: TV show, DVDs/specials, stage show, merchandise, books;

* if that fails, appearance on at least two seasons of the TV series;

* if that fails, appearance on two DVDs/specials.

Is that a fair benchmark? -- Zanimum (talk) 00:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's very fair. I'd add one thing, though: the above test should be applied after failing appearance in a third-party, published source as stated above. Christine (talk) 12:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The tables seem kind of messed up right now. The top has muppets then its divided alphabetical after the fact. Then at the bottom is the link to the human and animated list. yet the article title is list of characters in Sesame street should it been list of muppet characters. Also the redirect for Maria instead of going to the human page goes to the letter M on this article page. I don't recall how to fix all that. Anyone else? Xiahou (talk) 03:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While searching for characters, I found a great resource, from the National Post [1]. It's an interactive picture of "101 Muppets." You roll-over each character, and it has a short description, including the season in which it was introduced. Its potential is great, and I intend to use it after combing through printed resources (i.e., my books). I wanted to record it here for future use. Christine (talk) 14:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was just about to utilize the above source, but then I saw something I had never noticed before: "Source: muppet.wikia.com". So the source isn't really all that great, unfortunately, since it's been decided (by me, although I haven't heard any objection) that Muppet Wikia, as great as it is, isn't a reliable source for WP. Sorry, kids. I will, however, put it in a new section: "External links", because it's too cool to not include somewhere in this list. Christine (talk) 12:43, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another source [2], for inclusion when the animated characters list is split off. Christine (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally done it--I have created

Deltasim (talk) 06:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, YouTube clips are perfectly reliable references, as long as you've exhausted more reliable sources. See the above section,"Possible criteria for inclusion", which describes the policies developed for this list. One of the last things that need to happen for this list is to go through Talk:List of characters in Sesame Street/Possible additions (Howie's on that list), find clips for them, and add them back here. It's a fun project, and on my to-do list, but I got burnt out on this list and am now taking a break from it. If anyone else would like to take it on, go ahead. I'll help in any way that I can. Christine (talk) 16:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you mean. Howie is just such an underrated character, that it maybe difficult to find a page with at least one paragraph about him. Deltasim (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've located a couple of references on the following websites:

• http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/Fran-Brill/
• http://muppet.emil.wikia-dev.com/wiki/Howie

They seem applicable enough to include Howie in the article. Deltasim (talk) 19:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't Sammy the Snake on this list? He was seen on the show at least twice. -- 134.241.28.252 (talk) 19:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure he was, but unfortunately that's not enough. Provide a source, even if it's the particular episodes, and he can be added. Christine (talk) 03:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? -- 71.184.193.224 (talk) 04:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to eventually see this list re-listed as an FL, so I basically reverted it to the version before some major deletions were made early this year. I also did the same to List of human Sesame Street characters; here's the reasoning behind it [3], which is the same here. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason she's not listed? mg (talk) 13:42, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because although she's a Muppet, she never appeared on Sesame Street. She's in List of Muppets. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it not on the list of Sesame Street Muppets? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.255.49.35 (talk) 05:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

She can be, dear anonymous IP, if the information about her is supported by

original research, which is against policy here. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

Well, Here is the confusion. There was one shot character on Sesame Street who hosted Squeal of Fortune and his name was Pat Playjacks. Muppet Wiki said that Pat Playjacks is based on Pat Sajak. Here is the source Pat Playjacks info on Muppet Wiki. Jonathan Lhota (BuddyBoy600) (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Brad, Bert's nephew, should be added.Malcolmlucascollins (talk) 06:47, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I must have missed something pretty obvious but shouldn't Kermit be listed here? I'm guessing at some point this article was vandalized and not correctly restored. If Kermit shouldn't be here, then isn't the template for sesame street characters wrong then? Mayumashu (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, User:Mayumashu, you're correct. I can't believe that at least I didn't notice what must have been vandalism--me, who's favorite Muppet happens to be Kermit! I also can't believe that someone would be so mean to him. ;) I've re-added him; thanks very much for the catch. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're quite welcome. My son, a big Kermit fan and I were wondering if he's on Sesame Street, that someone said that he wasn't, and that started a little searching into it - something about his rights being different from those of the other muppets - which led to here; anyway, glad that's been "rescued"! All the best Mayumashu (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"List of Sesame Street Muppets"? More like "Four long paragraphs of historical Muppets detail already in the main The Muppets article, followed by, oh yeah, that list we mentioned." Why make readers wade through all that? This is what linked articles are for. When you yield to the temptation to include everything everywhere, it defeats fundamental wiki philosophy, and we're back to hoping your local library had a copy of the book you wanted. "Be brave!", as WP Jimmy Wales says. Simplify, stay on-topic, and provide links for readers who want more. – AndyFielding (talk) 08:34, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My 31 JAN 2023 edit to this article about muppet host character Sonny Friendly being named after the real life host Sonny Fox was reverted by User: Oknazevad. He stated in his reversion of my edit: "Not a reliable source. Do not use the Muppet Wiki. It's a wiki, therefore WP:USERG)" That "WP: USERG" means "User-generated content". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#User-generated_content

I can understand that rejection, but I have several things to say about that.

1. First, let's put this into perspective... A. The source I gave is the Muppet Wikia, a Wiki created by devout fans of the Muppets and Sesame Street. B. Wikipedia is a wiki.... no better than any other wiki either. Indeed, considering Wikipedia's fame for inaccuracy, that's the pinnacle of hypocrisy to complain about another wiki. This is especially so given that "editors" of articles often know nothing about the subject - which is one reason why Wikipedia is considered unreliable. C. Years ago, I got some kid from Norway undoing my edits about US law. I am an American who studies law and is old enough to be that kid's father and he's not even an American. What does he know about US law? Not nearly as much as I do, yet he gets to override my work. Think about it.

2. Just because something is "User-generated content" does not mean it is factually incorrect. Indeed, it is acceptable in a court of law. It's called being a witness under oath. Furthermore, when you think about it, we are all "user-generated content" of our parents.

Instead of an outright reversion, perhaps Oknazevad should have flagged my edit within the article itself and requested a better source.

3. There really aren't a lot of sources on this bit of arcane nostalgic trivia and, unfortunately, I can't use myself as a reference.

But I am 60 years old and anyone who has lived as long as me would have immediately realized that Sonny Friendy, who debuted with Sesame Street in 1969, was named after contemporaneously popular TV host Sonny Fox who had hosted for many years the nationwide Sunday morning kids show "Wonderama".

So, I searched on Sonny Fox being the inspiration for Sonny Friendly to see if there was some more official source than just me. Immediately, I found that Muppet Wikia entry. And the Muppet Wikia assertion echoed what I suspected because anyone old enough would echo what we asserted.

While that is not conclusive proof, that indicates a pattern - that more than one "witness" independently arrived at the same conclusion/observation. In court, that is substantial.

So, in principle, if I referenced myself that Sonny Friendly was named after Sonny Fox, my update would be rejected as user-generated content. Yet, if I took the stand in court and swore under oath, that would be legitimate testimony.

That said, I will endeavor to find better sources for the name Sonny Friendly.

It's a shame, but the real sources for this fact are going to be the people who worked on Sesame Street in 1969 and they are dying off fast. This implies that the fact that Sonny Friendly was named after Sonny Fox may become lost in history.... all because Wikipedia, "the wiki of record", doesn't trust The Muppet Wikia, a wiki of perhaps better reputation than Wikipedia. Vincent Ree (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Taking this here to avoid any frothed edit warring. As I was saying in my edit summary before I fat-fingered it, there's three reasons not to include him there. First, the sentence prior specifically talk about characters being created for the show. The frog of course pre-dates the series by over a decade. Secondly, he's not owned by the producers of the show, and hasn't appeared in well over a decade outside a cameo on the 50th anniversary special, so he's not a character primarily associated with Sesame Street, making his mention in the lead somewhat undue. Thirdly, he was never mentioned in the lead until added by an anon five days ago, so removing him is just restoring the long-standing version of the page. (Frankly, I think Abby should be re-added, and am not sure why she keeps getting removed, but I digress.) oknazevad (talk) 02:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kermit has been a regularly occurring, very prominent, character on Sesame Street for decades. They've reduced his appearances somewhat since Disney purchased the Muppets from the Hensons. But, I should note, that throughout most of Sesame Street's life, the CTW (now the Sesame Workshop), didn't own ANY of the muppet characters.

It doesn't matter when the edit was added, there's no reason to remove Kermit from the lead. - jc37 02:36, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it says "many of", it does not say "all of". Again, you're pushing your own

Neutral when presenting the characters. And any characters that appeared in the first season, which still appear on the show, are good candidates for being listed in the lead. - jc37 02:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Everyone, I agree that Kermit shouldn't be in lead of this list, or at least not where he appears now, but probably for a different reason than what you've been discussing here. The sentence that begins "Some of the best known Muppets..." isn't supported by the citation at the end of the paragraph (Finch, p. 53 https://archive.org/details/jimhensonworksar0000finc_z1x5/page/52/mode/2up?q=Kermit&view=theater), although everything else in the paragraph is. So the entire line with the list of popular characters should be removed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Based upon your comments, removing the entire sentence sounds like the right move going forward. - jc37 02:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On a somewhat related note, I understand having the page in alphabetical order, but I think readers would be better served if entries in this list were listed in chronological order by first appearance on the show. Among other things, this could help identify which characters were already on the show when various significant format changes occurred. - jc37 02:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the sentence. I disagree with the suggestion to change the structure of this list from alphabetical to chronological. Remember that this is a FL, so any major change like that would endanger its status. Also, structuring character lists alphbetically is standard practice. For example, The Simpson's character list, after listing the major characters, lists characters alphabetically; see List of The Simpsons characters#Characters. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no bar to chronological lists (or many other kinds of ways to sort lists). See also Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#Organization.

And I could also note that The Simpsons didn't have format changes over the years like Sesame Street

But there's no need.

In your example, the template at the Simpson list page, allows the reader to sort by date.

So your argument doesn't really work there either. - jc37 21:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a single source somewhere that lists the first appearance of the various Muppets? A "first appearance" would seem useful - I watched Sesame Street around the mid-1980s, and had no idea that there were *120* of them (I only remember about 7 or 8, not including Kermit). So I assume a lot of them have been added since then. Jimw338 (talk) 14:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]