Talk:Long jump

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Caitlyn Jenner

There is a consensus on Wikipedia that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman and should be referred to as such. Caitlyn Jenner leapt 7.22 at the Montreal Olympics. That's longer than 6.99, the next best by a woman in 1976. You cannot simply pretend it didn't happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:808C:2100:1990:D4BC:928C:BB58 (talk) 23:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jenner discussions

We have discussions about the policy going on at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 121#MOS:IDENTITY clarification and about the other usages of Jenner's identity at Talk:Caitlyn Jenner. There is a lot of discussion to read at both locations. Trackinfo (talk) 03:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Standing long jump record

I was wondering if anyone knows the Standing Long Jump record, or if Standing Long Jump is even in the olympics? KelticK 22:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting question. See Ray Ewry; according to the page, he's still the holder of the record 3.47 m jump, the event was last seen in the olympics in 1912, and was discontinued in internation competitions in the 1930s. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Carl Lewis' best jump, there seems to be a good deal of confusion. This page (http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mlongok.htm) , which looks reliable, mentiones 8.79 as his all time best result. But on the other hand, he is listed with a 8.87 (with wind -0.2) in a list with "best legal jump in series with series best jump wind-aided". So Lewis made a wind-assisted jump in that same series, which was longer. What it all seems to come down to, is a simple decision whether a list of best all-time performances should be limited to endresults of competitions, or also individual jumps which in the end didn't matter for that competition. JH-man 08:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It took me a long time to finally find the athlete in the picture, a picture from a different angle would be better. Howaboutadog 01:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

fair use

Can the images scanned from the book illustrating the different techniques and the long jump board be viewed as fair use? I think these probably violate the copyrights. Has this been discussed somewhere else?

David D. (Talk) 06:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

LEAD

The intro for this article seems too long. Maybe some of it should be moved into the body of the article?

David D. (Talk) 05:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

I agree. IMHO The 2nd paragraph ("Competitors sprint down..") and the 3rd paragraph ("Usually, each competitor...") should be moved to a new section within the article. Kvsh5 (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Standing Long jump

I don't think that standing long jump is an Olympic event. They don't even do it at high school track meets. There probably is a record but it will take some time to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.7.60.187 (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rotation Techniques

I took out the following text because it's not true -- changing the polar moment of inertia of your body in mid-air will affect how much you rotate, for example by tucking in tight the same amount of angular momentum on departure will rotate your body more.

"There is also nothing that can be done to change the rotation of the body. All of the in-the-air techniques like the sail, hang, and hitch-kick, are actually useless, which is often a misunderstood point. It's a mechanical fact that the rotation of the body cannot be changed in the air, and the use of these techniques relies more on psychological reason than rational ones."

Records

Use Wikipdia For Anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.245.22 (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


There is a polish record (8,28) which is not listed in "National Records"

Carl Lewis

In the Top 25 Jumps list, Carl Lewis' 8.68 from the Tokyo 1991 World Championship is missing. That was his first jump in the final and it was a new World Championship record at that time, the previous one was by him from the previous WC 1987 in Rome, and was just 1 cm shorter.

Why isn't Carl Lewis' 8.91 at the '91 world championships listed? Tompw (talk) (review) 21:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Because it was wind-assisted. Legal for the competition, not legal for the recordbooks JH-man (talk) 10:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • No it wasn't (source), although someone has beatren me to it. Does anyone know if that jump was before or after Powell's jump on that day? Tompw (talk) (review) 22:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was right before Powell's jump (i just watched the youtube video). Lewis took the lead, but didnt break the world record because of the wind. then powell jumped right afterwards, shattering both.--70.109.187.249 (talk) 19:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lewis jumped 8.91 wind assisted on his 4th jump. Powell jumped next, 8.95 for the record, his fifth-round jump. Lewis' 5th-round jump was 8.87, his sixth and final was 8.84. The 8.87 was his personal-best legal jump, it wasn't the leap that won him the silver medal - his 8.91w did. Which is why, when you look at the link to the IAAF, Tom, you see no place after the Lewis mark as it was a subsidiary jump. Wind-assisted marks are not on the official lists. Canada Jack (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems this old discussion was updated - with a comment about Lewis's 8.68 at the 1991 WC - now that we have the all-time 25 performances. I took the marks as per the World Athletics list, but the editor is correct - two of his legal leaps from that day are on the list, but not the legal 8.68. Can't see any reason not to include it. Canada Jack (talk) 15:27, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Peter O'Connor

At the moment, I am traversing a bunch of athletics pages and am updating the flags shown next to the countries to the correct flag design at the time of the performance. Peter O'Connor gives me some headache though. Officially, a nation of Ireland did not exist in 1901, so you'd think he compete for the United Kingdom. On the other hand, the article about him leaves no doubt that he was very much in favor of Irish independence, and even refused to compete for the United Kingdom on several occurences. I won't change his entry at this point in time, but would love some educated input on how to handle this more complicated case. --Flosch (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is always a tricky subject, but to be consistent, we should list the nationality under which the athlete competed. Otherwise, we'd be continually "updating" ancient lists of Olympic winners, etc, as countries' borders change, etc. And I note that on this page, the Soviet Union, which no longer exists, is still listed beside many athletes here, along with the GDR. But I know this raises hackles sometimes. When I once discussed Ireland being part of the UK back in the 1800s with an Irish woman, she literally started to scream at me that it wasn't so. I tried to explain I wasn't suggesting this was a good thing, just what was then true, but she would have none of it. The best rule of thumb here is probably to go by what the official sources, the IOC, the IAAF, and what they list. Canada Jack (talk) 16:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the general rule is to list them under the nationality they held when they competed. However, it gets more complicated here: the IAAF wasn't even in existence in 1901, so it's hard to get reliable archived information. The only comparison I could make that comes even remotely close is maybe a team such as Euskaltel–Euskadi, which (at least for a long time, not sure about nowadays) only accepted basque cyclists. It's still different in that the area is still recognized as an autonomous region, and I'm not sure whether they openly promote basque independence from Spain, like O'Connor definitely did for Ireland. I still lean towards giving him the union jack flag though, he was still officially a citizen of the United Kingdom at that time, whether he liked it or not. --Flosch (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, the IAAF didn't then exist (even if they did list a chronology of records), but the IOC did, so I'd say see what was done by the IOC up to 1920 and go by that in terms of Irish nationals. Also, the point is not what one's national sentiment was, the point is how do the governing bodies recognize the nationality. While O'Connor did not win an Olympic medal, some of his teammates with similar Irish sentiments did, such as Cornelius Leahy. And, on the IOC site, we see him listed as representing Britain. http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/results/search_r_uk.asp?KEYWORD=Cornelius+Leahy&x=0&y=0&RESULT=TRUE&KEYWORDS=%22Cornelius*%22+and+%22Leahy*%22 Canada Jack (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You make a very good point here, and it supports my gut feeling too. I'll go ahead and change it accordingly. If anybody disagrees, they can always join the discussion here at a later point. Thanks for your help in digging out some official information! --Flosch (talk) 17:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are further complications to this issue. In 1901, the UK was "Great Britain and Ireland", whereas now it is "Great Britain and Northern Ireland", so while the names are the same, the technicalities of the countries are not. I am going to add a footnote to the page to clarify that the UK then was GB and I, and that Peter O'Connor was from Ireland. Now I just have to figure out how to do footnotes ... Apollo Crua (talk) 11:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but then we'd need to do the same, perhaps, for Germany preWWII, and certainly for all the Soviet athletes and the ones from the GDR. Reflecting under which flag someone competed in no way condones the government that flag represented, nor diminishes the accomplishments of the athlete in question. Canada Jack (talk) 19:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peter O'Connor broke the world record at a local event in Dublin, Ireland. He was not competing "for Ireland" or "for Great Britain", but as a member of the Irish Amateur Athletic Association. "One's national sentiment", in that case, is the over-riding factor, and IOC regulations or conventions are of no significance whatever. I have reverted on that basis. Scolaire (talk) 13:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then, logically, you should insert a flag of the Irish Amateur Athletic Association since that was the flag he competed under, according to you. But there is a basic problem here - O'Connor would not have been the world record holder as the IAAF wasn't formed until 1912. The source is not the official IAAF source. So, O'Connor's mark should be omitted. I will see if I can find another record progression as it was atypical for the IAAF to ratify a record which was set before 1912. Canada Jack (talk) 16:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can't find a reference to this record though I suspect that it, being akin to Beamon and Owens' long-standing long jump records, the IAAF may have seen this as one of those "immortal" records which it accepted upon forming or, at least, would not consider "broken" until it was surpassed. As for the flag issue... I am trying to find the policy on this on wikipedia as, clearly, this issue comes up. But I failed to see one (maybe someone else can find this somewhere). But upon looking at the medal lists for Olympic champions in track we see the pattern of what flags an individual actually competed under. So, for the 1980 Olympics, many competitors are depicted with the Olympic flags as many national oc's refused to fly their flags there. In these cases, it was clearly the determination of the national delegations as to what "flag" was flown. But when it comes to record-setters, this is a different case. When a competitor submitted a record, he could not do so individually, it had to be via a national committee. And, btw, the Irish Athletic Association is not a "national" committee per se, no more so than the Montreal Athletic Association meant member record-setters would be recognized under the city flag of Montreal. In the case of world records, those are submitted for ratification by national committees recognized by the IAAF, committees that are recognized and certified for their adherence to the rules and regulations of the IAAF. This body was formed in 1912, and O'Connor's record was set in 1905. But for it to have been considered a record, it would have to have been submitted by the British track authorities for ratification, presumably seven years after the fact. The Irish would not have had a separate national body in 1912 to submit this as a record.

So, for those above reasons, the flag here should be the flag of Great Britain and Ireland. If we were to insist on an Irish flag, one could make a better case for the use of the one O'Connor actually famously climbed the 1906 Olympic pole to fly - which was not the familiar Irish tricolour. So, if we are to make the "official" case, the British flag should appear; if we are to make the "flag he competed under" case, the Erin Go Bragh flag is the one to appear as that was the one it is reported he actually flew under, at least in 1906. Canada Jack (talk) 17:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the record dates from 1901, not 1905. Canada Jack (talk) 20:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about we inject a dose of realism here? First of all, the 1901 record was an IAAF-recognised record (it still stood in 1912), but we have no reliable source to say it was submitted by the British track authorities or anybody else, and in any case a submission does not define nationality, whatever else might. Secondly, there is no template for the Erin go Bragh flag (I wish there was!) or the IAAA flag (and anyway he was not "Irish amateurish", just Irish), so if he is to be Irish - and clearly he is - we are stuck with the good old tricolour. Why do we need to be so legalistic anyway? Wikipedia is not governed by statute, so if the man was Irish, just let him be Irish. Scolaire (talk) 20:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, the IAAF ratified records set post 1912. For example, in the mile, the first IAAF-ratified record was set in 1913 - the time by John Paul Jones set in 1911 wasn't the world record per se, though the IAAF didn't consider a new record until someone surpassed what was generally seen as the "world record." That's what I am not sure of, and I'm pretty sure you don't know that for a fact either. As for "nationality," again, Ireland did not exist as a separate nation until 20 years after the record was set. Do you pretend otherwise? Why do we need to be so legalistic? Because we are imparting supposedly sourced, accurate information. Which is why O'Connor's Irish teammates are listed by the IOC and therefore by us as having competed for the UK at the Olympics in the early years of the 20th century. To pretend someone competed under a flag for a nation which did not exist in a de jure sense is historical revisionism. We don't stick Lithuanian flags for Soviet athletes who won medals or set records previous to 1991 for that simple reason. And most Lithuanians chafed as much under Soviet dominion as the Irish did under British rule. And Quebecois don't get their to choose the flag that flies beside them even if they are separatists. So, instead of wading into nationalist arguments, the rule of thumb is to fly the flag of the nation they competed for, nationalist sentiments notwithstanding. So far, you've suggested applying a rule that would have the effect of changing the flags of at least 33 of the athletes listed on this page. What makes Ireland any different here? And, even if you have an argument, you've put the wrong flag beside O'Connor. It's a flag he wouldn't have recognized! Canada Jack (talk) 02:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First, Ireland most certainly did exist as a nation. "The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government [had] not extinguished the right [to nationhood]" (
common sense. Fourth, flying the flag he competed for is an irrelevance, as the world record was not set at an international event. Fifth, I did not "put the wrong flag" against him, I put the {{flagathlete}} template, which doesn't allow for picking and choosing flags. Sixth, what is your source for saying he would not have recognised the tricolour? It was a flag recognised by Irish nationalists of the day, and the Erin go Bragh flag just happened to be the one he was given in Athens. Now, if your argument is that British imperialism is to be represented on all WP articles as policy then say so, but please stop hiding behind verifiabilty and spurious constitutional law. Scolaire (talk) 11:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
BTW I do know for a fact that the 1901 record was recognised by the IAAF, but I cannot remember where to find the source, and I see no need to bother since nobody has looked for sources for anything else in this discussion. Scolaire (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the latter point, what we should do is what I did on the "mile" page, and that is to have pre-IAAF records. What is beyond doubt is that the record was set in the pre-IAAF era, so we can have a new heading noting pre-IAAF records (there are progressions going back to the 19th century I have seen). There are many "unofficial" lists of records which cite the IAAF but list records they never ratified. Unfortunately, the IAAF itself doesn't seem to have anywhere on their website compilations of past records. Canada Jack (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the former points, suffice to say I disagree. The same argument for Irish nationalism would apply to Scotland and Wales, yet we don't make similar alterations in the case of record-holders or Olympic medalists. Nor would we change the flags of past winners if Scotland becomes independent down the road, a not inconceivable eventuality.
But, out of respect for the memory of my ancestor from Tullamore, where I hear the dew gives you a hangover, I will simply state my case and leave it at that. Cheers. Canada Jack (talk) 16:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now I remember where I saw it - it's on the source used in the article itself![1] "A. OFFICIALLY RATIFIED BY THE IAAF" is at the top of the list. Scolaire (talk) 17:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that source is they list other records supposedly "officially ratified" such as the men's marathon which the IAAF didn't start recognizing as world records until 1994. Yet they list "records" back to 1913, and "pre-IAAF" records before that. I'd say to be on firm ground, we split the table into pre-IAAF and IAAF eras, as is done elsewhere, and add the other records which proceeded O'Connor's 1901 mark. Canada Jack (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a problem with that. Thanks for the clarification. Scolaire (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above was an old debate, but since then I have seen the IAAF official progression list and the IAAF, indeed, ratified in 1912 O'Connor's 1901 achievement as the inaugural record in the event. The source is reflected on the separate page on long jump record progressions. And, for the record, the IAAF lists as nationality "GBI." Canada Jack (talk) 16:18, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistent date format

On the World Record Progression and National records sections the dates are listed as YYYY-MM-DD. However, on the Top Ten Performers section, the american format is used. Can anyone fix this? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 16:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, YYYY-MM-DD is not appropriate for English-language Wikipedia. Scolaire (talk) 20:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indoor/outdoor

As illustrated by the Sebastian Bayer record jump episode (added into the best performances table and then removed again), I think this article needs an addition about indoor performances. It seems quite absurd that his jump and Carl Lewis's 8.79 indoor jump are totally and completely absent. They are an important part of history so they deserve somekind of attention? JH-man (talk) 10:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why not simply add all-time top 10 indoor lists? We have a similar situation in the pole vault, where the greatest vault in history - 6.15 by Sergey Bubka - is not mentioned as it was an indoor feat and the lists are outdoors. The problem here is that if we simply add Bayer's mark to the all-time lists, we are engaging in original research as the primary source here - the IAAF - does not intermingle indoor and outdoor achievements (there are exceptions, however, see the
talk page for the women's vault progression), but unless the IAAF starts intermingling the marks, we should avoid doing so. Canada Jack (talk) 18:12, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
I don't think anyone disagrees. Now we just have to find someone to actually do it, lol.  :) I would do it myself but I'm afraid I'm not much into the standards used in articles like these etc. JH-man (talk) 09:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regulations

The international regulations are pretty much different from those used in the U.S – globalization is needed, maybe also a separate section for the regulations/rules. --87.95.16.243 (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good grief. Today, the article's introduction doesn't even say WHOSE rules the article discusses. Olympic, correct? I'm no expert, but the article ought to say so in the intro. Variations such as American Collegiate Track & Field (?)should be explored too. If there are other sets of rules, whether identical or differing, the article should mention it. No wonder the article has been tagged.

Mydogtrouble (talk) 20:50, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1st Picture

It also took me a long time to find the athlete in the first picture, (see para 4 of the 'Standing long jump record' section above), even after clicking on it; surely, after three years, a better picture could be found. RASAM (talk) 20:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

US Flag

Seems to have 50 stars in all pictures. Many of the records were broken under the 48 star flag. 58.166.77.221 (talk) 07:32, 21 August 2009

the flag,no matter how many stars are there,it is still the us flag.

Somersault

Are somersaults really banned in long jumping[2], or they are just ineffective? Alone Coder (talk) 15:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Probably are banned. They are banned in high jump. Cls14 (talk) 13:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it's banned. Unlike the Fosbury Flop, they used it before the Olympics, thus giving time for it to be banned from Olympic competition, which banned it everywhere. If they had done like Fosbury did with his flop and waiting until the Olympics to use the technique, than it'd be the way we'd do it today. But instead they showed off before the biggest event, thus getting it banned. 68.107.138.161 (talk) 10:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Somersaulting is not banned in high jump, however, the technique of jumping off of two feet is. If a jumper can attain the required efficiency clearly jumping off of one foot, its legal. I've seen a one legged jumper win an open competition using the technique. Fosbury did not hide his technique. He and Debbie Brill clearly used it for a couple of years before the 1968 Olympics. He won the NCAA Championship and used it in the multiple stage Olympic trials which were shown in as public a fashion as the sport has outside of the Olympics --
ABC's Wide World of Sports. Trackinfo (talk) 08:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
Is there any information on results prior to ban? When it was banned? When it was first introduced/seen at official competition? This should be in the article as a illegal technique. 213.149.61.252 (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"once was a fifty-five ancient foot"

Is "ancient" in the wrong place here, or...?

J.M. Archer (talk) 18:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

National records table

It kind of fails, when you click on the arrows (to try to line it differently). Pelmeen10 (talk) 13:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Broad jump vs. long jump

Can information be added as to the terms "broad jump" vs. "long jump"? I remember hearing it called a broad jump as late as the 1960s. Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 03:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the early 1960s, I only heard it called the broad jump, but not too much later (mid-to-late 1960s?), all I heard was long jump. This article confirms that : https://dictionaryblog.cambridge.org/2012/08/02/the-triumph-of-the-long-jump/ . Kdammers (talk) 14:15, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Somersault long jump

I discovered this technique on my own in late 1974 and used it my entire 1975 University of South Dakota track season. Dan Lennon was my South Dakota track coach at the time. Did it for both indoor and out seasons. This included long jumping into mats during a few indoor field events. I was both a long jumper and high jumper and had trouble switching from jumping Up. One meet in 1974 at Yankton College in South Dakota I took off from a long jump and since I was so high in the air I just went for it. I immediately had it down. With the technique mid 23 ft. jumps were normal for me. In my second to last meet at Morningside College in Iowa I used the technique, off a concrete runway in flats, to record 5 long jumps over 23 ft. I was never injured and it actually became a normal and easy technique for me. I still have an old friend from that time who can back up my doing this technique as being "regular". To me outlawing the technique is as conceptually dumb outlawing the flopping high jump. Probably outlawed due to University insurance nonsense. Just let the athlete sign a waiver. Hopefully...someday Track Men...will overrule insurance agents. All it takes is commitment and guts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.28.145.113 (talk) 20:45, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bruce Jenner among others tried the technique and it received some notoriety in the mid-1970s. The IAAF made the technique illegal, writing a rule that the jumper's feet may not go above their head. Trackinfo (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

Please update last part: IVANA SPANOVIC @ 7.01m (28/08/2015) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.110.37.169 (talk) 12:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

but its still not in the article right? itz really should be... see that this was reality not fake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyR4FQxDoyk&lc=Ugw_o3rapO-dZadteNp4AaABAg.9g4jtEznYL89g4kGGCtc4Y

Lasse Miranda (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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long jump record history

I don't see any explanation of the colour code in the table.

2nd ... Very strange :-(. JB. --92.193.189.61 (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Panama is not in South America

Under the region / continental records section, a panamanian record is listed as the continental record for South America.

Panama is member of CONSUDATLE/Atletismo Sudamericano. First check the official record pages on federation web site.Montell 74 (talk) 17:35, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, just to underline that, the records are per the World Athletics official list, which shows Panamanian Irving Saladino as the South American area record holder, geographical incorrectness notwithstanding. https://www.worldathletics.org/records/by-discipline/jumps/long-jump/outdoor/men Canada Jack (talk) 23:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox overlaps with article text

The bottom left corner of the infobox overlaps with text in the body of the article when I view the article. The overlap is small and doesn't interfere with readability in my view (this may not the case for either devices or display setting though) but I still would like to fix it but don't know how. WireBeetle (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Botswana Tops the Olympic Long Jump Men's Medal Table?

Surely this is incorrect? 51.9.131.114 (talk) 13:42, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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