Talk:Mission Barrio Adentro

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I'm interested in getting a discussion together about this page - and it's relationship to the

I'll add it to my list for later (tomorrow or the next day). I read the bottom of the article: on first pass, it appears basically accurate and should be easy to reference, although I think there is some significant criticism and faults with the program that are left out. The Venezuela Healthcare article looks like a tough one to tackle: looks like kind of a mess. This one looks manageable. *IF*, as the Cuba article says, dentistry in Cuba is really superior, Chavez should start bringing those instead of doctors. Whereas Venezuela had excellent doctors pre-Chavez, it never had adequate dentistry. Sandy 04:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Venezuela had good doctors, however it misses the point of what a comprehensive medical system is, or should be, if you where higher class you would not see any difference pre or post Chavez howerver the poor sectors would see a dramatic difference, like Cuba we are migrating from a curative medicine system into a preventitive medicine one, it is much cheaper to get results if a cancer is found on the early stages for example. That is Barrio Adentro in a nutshell, creating a culture of of patients visiting doctors regularly, for that you need LOTS of Doctors, and doctors willing to get paid much less than in curative medicine. Venezuela is also traning those tipes of doctors in Cuba and in the end get them all to start swapping cuban ones.Flanker 17:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks guys. I, like yourselves am busy enough elsewhere on wikipedia, so I appreciate any input. --Zleitzen 22:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know the legal status for uploading

http://www.minci.gov.ve/imagnot/TECNOLOGIA_DSC_2915%20WEB.JPG http://www.minci.gov.ve/imagnot/TECNOLOGIA_DSC_2913%20WEB.JPG http://www.minci.gov.ve/imagnot/grande206-09.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/laboratorio600x400.jpg http://www.minci.gov.ve/imagnot/interno550.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/equipo1-.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/equipo3-.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/virgen%20del%20valle%20001.JPG http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/Margarita1.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/tomo.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/te.jpg http://www.mci.gob.ve/imagnot/CUMANA8WEB.jpg

Flanker 04:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Upload to the commons, say that they are government pics (which they are) and are thus legal, and see if anyone complains?--Zleitzen 10:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy has restored this criticism;

Venezuela's leader in 2006 has been criticised[4] for expending considerable effort in making international trips to alter policies in other countries, ironically at a time where the country itself needs considerable attention in the areas of public health and environmental protection[7].

The sentence itself doesn't describe the Missions, and neither do the sources. Are these criticisms are relevant to this page?--Zleitzen 13:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No they aren't, which is why I deleted them in the first place. Unless a good reason to keep this is forthcoming, I will delete it again.Felix-felix 14:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zleitzen, the original author of that text had included it in the Venezuela article, and I told him/her it didn't belong there (it's not about Venezuela, it's a Chavez medical criticism), and I sent him/her here. Where should it go? Mission Barrio Adentro *is* Chavez's medical plan: why would it not belong here? Sandy 14:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's manifestly not about Mission Barrio Adrento-which is one part of Venezuela's health policy-nor is ist relevant to it.This would be more appropriate on the Chavez page-but would be a bit spurious there too. Unless there are serious objections, I'm going to delete it.Felix-felix 14:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Felix, your arguments aren't convincing. It sounds like you just want to remove criticism, without a good reason. I suggest you wait for consensus before removing referenced content. Sandy 15:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, if your arguments hold, then this statement in the article isn't accurate: "Notably, Article 84 under Title III mandates that the healthcare furnished through such public programs as Barrio Adentro be publicly funded, and explicitly proscribes its privatization. The Hugo Chávez Frías administration has sought to fulfill its constitutional obligations via the Mission Barrio Adentro program." Sandy 15:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first citation, which refers to Chavez's comments at the UN doesn't have anything to do with the accompanying text: "Venezuela's leader in 2006 has been criticised[10] for expending considerable effort in making international trips to alter policies in other countries". There are no criticisms of "altering policies in other countries" at all. Is there something I'm missing here? Have I got the wrong citation?--Zleitzen 16:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The second citation, accompanying this wording "ironically at a time where the country itself needs considerable attention in the areas of public health and environmental protection" makes no reference to "environmental protection" and frankly contains no overt criticisms at all. Whatsmore, the citation refers to a study in 1999, before Chavez's health policy began. I'm confused.--Zleitzen 16:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've been busy elsewhere, and haven't caught up with the citations: if PhaseChange isn't checking his/her own sources, I'm not going to continue to defend his/her edits. My role was just to tell him/her that they didn't belong in the Venezuela article, and that this article was the more appropriate place for medical content/criticism. If the references aren't there, go ahead and delete the content. I will leave a talk page note to Phasechange that s/he really needs to participate in talk pages: I've been had too many times lately by my tendency to assume good faith :-) Sandy 17:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I checked some of the sources, and reverted it all. One reference, which says that poverty is down, was used to reference a statement that poverty is up. Sandy 17:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, but I would like to point out that whether the references checked out or not, the inclusion was clearly completely inappropriate to the article and should have been removed anyway.Felix-felix 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Critics of President Hugo Chávez say that the Cuban Missión Barrio Adentro I medical professionals are agents and propagandists acting for the ruling Communist Party of Cuba. They allege that these professionals were invited to Venezuela by the Chávez administration to indoctrinate the wider Venezuelan population.

This part should be removed as it uses weasel words, is uncited and almost hysterical "OH NO THE REDS ARE COMING TO INDOCTRINATE OUR CHILDREN!". -

A source has been provided for the statement. Unfortunately the source makes no reference to the Cuban communist party - indoctrination or propaganda. In fact the source is talking about the dissatisfaction of Cuban doctors. The statement will need to be removed again.--Zleitzen 00:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]