Talk:Paul of Greece/GA1

@Therealscorp1an: sorry for the delay, real life tends to be a bit unpredictable lately. Here are my first comments after a first read-through:

Lede

• was King of Greece two suggestions: one, the title used in the infobox and the succession box is that of 'King of the Hellenes', so some mention of this should be made here; second, perhaps 'the sixth King of Greece'?
  • Done.
• The year before his father ascended the throne Spell out the year, the reader shouldn't have to calculate the date from Paul's age ;)
  • Done.
• becoming the youngest cadet at the time, and after a National Schism during World War I very abrupt change of time and topic. At least split the sentence in two. and 'National Schism' is peculiar to Greece as a term, so 'a National Schism' won't mean much to the average reader. Consider briefly introducing it.
  • Done.
• became the Greek sovereign in 1917 would move the year to the mention of Constantine and Paul's exile
  • Done.
• However, the 1924 Greek republic referendum as the name is Wikipedia's way of describing the event and not a proper name used in historiography, I suggest something like 'However, in 1924 a referendum...' and simply pipe the link there. Ditto for the after the 1935 Greek monarchy referendum, perhaps 'after another referendum in 1935'? Although I would at least add 'after a royalist coup' here, since the referendum was neither free nor fair.
  • Done.
• Paul fought in World War II did he really fight? As heir-apparent he naturally did not have any combat role nor leadership role. Recommend striking this.
  • Done.
• when Greece fell to the Axis Powers add a year at least
  • Done.
• After World War II's conclusion and when George died in 1947, the former is somewhat redundant since 1947 is mentioned, which is clearly after 1945. I would suggest adding two things after After World War II's conclusion: one, that George returned to Greece in 1946 after another referendum, and the outbreak of the civil war.
  • Done.
• The war nonetheless concluded with monarchists defeating communist forces in the country add year and link the communist forces to Democratic Army of Greece
  • Done.
• worked to achieve enosis the term will be unfamiliar to most readers; add a brief explanation, e.g. 'enosis, the union of Cyprus with Greece'
  • Done.
• Give a proper link for 1952 Greek constitution
  • Done.
• During his reign, Paul was commended for his numerous state visits to multiple countries 'commended'? By whom and for what? This is the standard job of a head of state. Something is missing here...
  • Done.
• who became Constantine II add at least that he was the last king of Greece?
  • Done.
• I am missing at least two things from the lede (haven't had a chance to look at the main body of the article yet) that are pretty much the most important domestic aspects of his reign: his role in bringing Karamanlis to power and then dismissing him, and his role in the establishment of a nationalist-royalist para-state in Greece during the 1950s.
  • Done.

Early life

• 14 December 1901 Old Style or New Style? Greece did not adopt the Gregorian calendar until February 1923. Ditto for all dates before then.
  • Done.
• He trained as an army officer The last male mentioned is Crown Prince Constantine.
  • Done.
• Lieutenant with the Evzones. Does this meant he Palace Guard (now the Presidential Guard) or one of the Evzone regiments?
  • Done.
• Should his military training not be mentioned in chronological order, after references to his birth and early life education? Also, when did this education take place? It is nowhere mentioned again.
  • Done.
• Paul grew up in the Presidential Mansion it was not the Presidential Mansion then.
  • Done.
• a group of Greek officers mounted a coup d'état against his grandfather link to the Goudi coup, and the coup was not as such against George I (though there were elements in it who favoured a republic). This part is contradicted by the article itself when it states right after declared themselves in support of the monarchy
  • Done.
• There is some critical context missing here as to the dismissal of the princes and the otherwise unspecified criticism levelled at Constantine; namely Constantine's role in the 1897 war and the princes establishing cliques around them in the army officer corps.
  • Done.

National Schism

• Constantine wished to keep Greece neutral during the prelude to World War I, but he was accused of supporting the Central Powers this is potentially misleading phrasing; Constantine was supporting the Central Powers, because he believed they would win. His neutrality was because Greece was hopelessly exposed to the Entente navies and an entry into the war would have been disastrous.
  • Done.
• Greek National Schism as noted above, there is no other National Schism, so the 'Greek' is redundant. Some dates would be relevant here as well.
  • Done.
• Possibly due to "being afraid" of Wilhelm II, Constantine continued to refuse to succumb to Venizelos' demands. This is an opinion and needs to be attributed; and as an opinion it is also rather at odds with scholarship on the matter, e.g. Constantine was pressured to oppose Venizelos by Ioannis Metaxas. Ditto for the caption in the photo saying remained neutral in World War I to appease Wilhelm II.
  • Done.
• Link Charles Jonnart
  • Done.
• Constantine officially abdicated this is incorrect; Constantine never officially abdicated, he left behind Alexander as a placeholder of the throne. This is in fact clearly stated further down, Paul wrote that neither his father, Constantine, nor his older brother, George, had ever renounced their rights to the throne...
  • Done.
• replace Greece with a republican system something is missing here...
  • Done.
• though not the eldest son of Constantine, would succeed to the throne. an explanation is needed here, i.e. that George was also seen as pro-German
  • Done.

Exile to Switzerland

• I assume the Kiel Academy is the German Imperial Naval Academy? Please name and link it.
  • Done.
• the German Revolution sprouted can a revolution sprout?
  • Done.
• many naval officers began mutinies dubious, afaik the mutinies began by the crews, the officer corps by and large remained loyal to the Kaiser. Cf. (and link) Kiel mutiny.
  • Done.
• At the conclusion of World War I, Greece had made territorial gains over-simplified, but yes, that is correct; but at least mention that these gains were codified in the
  Treaty of Sevres
  in 1920. to the dismay of the Ottomans is a monumental understatement; add at least something to the effect that there was a war going on between Greece and Kemal's Turkish nationalists.
  • Done.
• During the 1920 Greek legislative election as before, replace the descriptive name with more elegant phrasing}}
  • Done.
• fighting broke out between a sector of monarchists, who protested for Constantine's reascension to the throne, where and when? I am not aware of fighting (ie. a civil war) during the election. And not 'a sector' of monarchists protested for this, there was the so-called 'United Opposition' of all non-Venizelist parties that campaigned for Constantine's return.
  • Done.
• The Greek throne remained vacant while Greece fought in the Greco-Turkish War, during the Turkish War of Independence. Would recommend moving the references to the war earlier, as mentioned, and strike the rest; the vacancy of the throne was not really relevant to the war at this point.
  • Done.
• he requested that Olga Constantinovna of Russia introduce her (Paul's grandmother and queen)
  • Done.

Return to Greece

• On 19 December 1920, feeling safe they did not return because they felt safe, but because royalist parties had taken over...
  • Done.
• They were greeted by protests in support 'demonstrations in support'?
  • Done.
• was criticised by Greece's allies in the concurrent Greco-Turkish war, most of which were also Greece's allies in World War I confusing; 'most of whom'? who were not? nominally Greece was in Anatolia on behalf of the Entente...
  • Done.
• Constantine was denied additional support from the Allies in their war against Turkey 'their war' means 'the Allies' war'...
  • Done.
• allowing Mustafa Kemal to make more territorial gains Kemal did not at this time make any territorial gains against the Greeks; the battles of Inonu did not impinge on the Greek zone of occupation in Anatolia.
  • Done.
• following the burning of Smyrna by Turkish troops. Turkey later defeated Greece and their allies Turkey first defeated Greece at the August 1922 offensive, which had the burning of Smyrna as a direct consequence.
  • Done.
• Overall, the context of the Greco-Turkish war is very convoluted and over-simplified to the point of containing several inaccuracies. Strongly recommend using a specialist work to rewrite this part. Alternatively, you can condense the whole section into the essential dates (Greek defeat in August 1922 and consequences) and focus on Paul's life during these years.

Yes, it is bound to be simplified. Paul did not play a huge role in that war. This article is about Paul, not said war or another war under his father's reign. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

True, which is why I am perfectly happy to leave you with the option of condensing the section to bare essentials; but over-simplification is not an excuse for factual errors or misleading phrasing, even if it is inadvertent. Constantine ✍ 18:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

• Please provide proper referencing for 'The Duke: Portrait of Prince Philip. Written by Tim Heald'. Also, I cannot find the information referenced by this source (e.g. Paul's military education and Sandhurst) in the book.
  • Done.
• Hachette 2006, Prevelakis & Η Ελλάδα από το Α έως το Ω: Εμφύλιος Πόλεμος 2011, Schain 2001 are referenced but do not appear in the article.
  • Done.
• I see a very heavy reliance on Van der Kiste, Hourmouzios and Sáinz de Medrano, who are royal biographers. I don't know the latter, but I know Van der Kiste's work, it tends to be very sympathetic to his royal subjects, quite at odds with historiography on the topic otherwise. Which is something I also see missing here in general. There are plenty of Greek-language and English-language sources on the political events referenced here that would be necessary for context, but they are not used, starting with the go-to Ιστορία του Ελληνικού Έθνους and going to more specialist works (e.g. recently Mavrogordatos' works on the National Schism, or Mazower, Close and Iatrides on the civil war, etc etc) Ditto for other events mentioned here, like the Kiel mutiny; Hourmouzios clearly isn't the best source to use to portray these events.
  • Most Greek royal articles do have a big reliance on these sources.
• This source might be useful for some additional details.

Puh, I will stop here. There is a lot to improve, and we are not even half-way into the article. I am willing to shepherd this through section by section, but it will need time. I will continue with the rest of the article once the above comments have been addressed. Constantine ✍ 20:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly done. More to follow. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have removed the block strike-throughs; I will strike through were issues have been addressed after review. In the meantime, please simply mark the issues you have addressed as done or otherwise reply to any suggestion. That way if an issue needs to be discussed further it can be done. Constantine ✍ 19:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]