Talk:Philippine Hokkien

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30% are Native English speakers?

Over 30% of Chinese Filipinos speak English as their first language? How? Why?

English is the language of instruction in most if not all schools in the Philippines. It's the language of commerce, government, and academe in contemporary Philippine society, thus it's been seen with high regard as a language in the past century. Most Filipinos are usually taught English as soon as they start school life, Chinese Filipinos included, thus many Chinese Filipinos, especially those in the upper class speak English as their preferred first language. Although many also have no problem with Filipino or other provincial languages, but there's a good many who prefer English first though especially in upper class schools. These guys are colloquially called Inglishero in Filipino/Tagalog.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Di/u- Orthographical Perception

There seems to be a certain unspoken widespread vernacular perception within Philippine Hokkien speakers of the Chinese Filipino community wherein words that start with "L", compared to other Hokkien dialects, and the first vowel thereafter is "i" or "u", the "L" is more prominently spelled with a "D" because Philippine Hokkien speakers more generally find the sound to sound more like a hard D sound, despite the actual sound to be more like a

voiced alveolar stop. Examples of this include Dí (你 / 汝) instead of Lí, or dī (二) instead of lī, or "dim" (啉) instead of "lim", or "diáu" (了) instead of "liáu", or "si-di̍t" (生日) instead of "si-li̍t", or "díng-khì" (冷氣) instead of "líng-khì", etc. This phenomenon seems to have persisted for decades even from the 20th century or even as early as the late 19th century as romanized Chinese Filipino family names have adopted the practice with family names like "Dy" (李), "Dizon" (二孫), "Dyson" (李孫), "Diokno", "Dee" (李), "Dijamco", "Deang" (鄧), etc. This phenomenon might stem from old colloquial perceptions in the Jinjiang dialect of Quanzhou Hokkien, that may still be observed as lingering in old Quanzhou Hokkien songs. I've been following this strange phenomenon for years and asking linguists in Quora and Wiktionary about this, even Chinese Filipino users way back in 2004 in old Chinese language forums have been talking about it, but still it remains an unspoken rule that no one wants to document or research. The linguists I've talked to in Quora says that this phenomenon is also found in rare old Quanzhou country songs. Certain users here in wikipedia and wiktionary refuse to let me document this, just because there are no sources, but that's because it's been such a normalized unspoken rule, the Chinese Filipino community itself sees very very little interaction with outside Hokkien groups who don't do it, the dialect itself is vaguely researched at best so, of course, there wouldn't be much sources for this. I guess at least all I can do is invite the rare linguist or enthusiast to look more into this and actually make a real research paper out of this phenomenon, if this is ever found some years later.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:34, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

I hope I didn’t discourage you, because I did find the section to be interesting. However, any such perception still needs to have a source. If it’s an “unspoken” rule that’s truly common, then there should exist reliable publication of some kind on the matter (not necessarily linguistics papers, but a newspaper article or something similar would also suffice). If one could find a reliable source on this, then I’m all for it. — MarkH21 (talk) 03:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, it's just one of those things that keeps bugging me in my sleep once in a while for the past couple of years when I first started noticing it's prevalence. There's a lot of poorly documented, unresearched and unsourced matters in Philippine articles mainly because old recorded data is hard to find since the only places that might have them are university libraries that might not have online databases, or ones that do have it hard to easily access their data which means one needs to personally physically rummage through every library which universities don't all allow public entry so people willing to contribute to places like wikipedia don't have much incentive to do it. The dialect itself is spoken only by a meager minority and its unpopular at best to the modern Chinese Filipino youth who mostly sees it as old and uncool, on top of that, chinese schools mostly now teach Mandarin only these days and any sense of further research on Hokkien matters goes mostly to more popular international prestige dialects like the Amoy dialect, Quanzhou, and Zhangzhou dialect. The common Chinese Filipino rather prefers English or Filipino/Tagalog and would rather forget the existence of this dialect. I'm surprised this article even has the certain length it does, compared to the Hokkien wikipedia pages present in Malaysia and Indonesia like South Peninsular Malaysian Hokkien and Medan Hokkien. Despite the centuries of existence of Hokkien in this country, only few studies are ever made every so century by the rare enthusiast so its evolution goes largely unmonitored and is seen as exotic by other countries with more prominent Hokkien communities like Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia where the evolution seems to have some sort of continuum I'm mildly sensing on the map that our dialect here seems to mildly bridge since speakers from Taiwan think we sound like those from Singapore and those from Singapore think we sound funny like those from Taiwan. This D consonant change is one such factor that seems to have invisibly inserted itself in the community for decades that Quanzhou speakers seem to have corrected themselves with and all other speakers from neighboring countries don't seem to do. Chinese linguists I've talked to pass it off as not worth recording as a real D because it seems to be more like a voiced alveolar flap, which in POJ is reserved to an L and D is thought more as like it were T in the chinese pinyin educated mind, but in reality, people here say it like it were between L and D, but increasingly more say it like it was a hard D here, so spell it that way but philippine hokkien itself is hardly ever written since its mostly a spoken vernacular. To me, I think this is a situation of the orthography one is familiar with, which the Chinese Filipino tends to think in Filipino orthography whereas more chinese-oriented people from Taiwan, Mainland China, Singapore, Malaysia would not think of spelling it that way. It's mostly such a natural unspoken matter, since the dialect is rarely written, that I can't imagine if someone has researched this before in some university archive somewhere and don't see how and where I can start to find keywords to any news articles or academic papers that specifically talk about this tendency. If I was a researcher, I could try writing about these findings myself, but I'm no professional linguist or researcher. I just know I've told a guy from Hong kong in Quora months ago here, who might be one, about it and he thinks Quanzhou speakers might've used to do it before, as evidenced by some old songs there. He seems to be referencing several chinese sources that several scholars have supposedly noted, but it's all in chinese and I'm no professional. I just know the people here, like my parents, cousins, and people my friends have asked, proactively do it. When I ask them specifically about it, I just get confused stares.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Found some interesting sources for this page on its future development

@Justinrleung and MarkH21: I've managed to dig up some interesting sources for this topic, some of them I couldn't find an online copy that we can easily view but here are some of those that I have found with an available online pdf web copy regarding this language's presence in the Philippines and also other interesting reads with mention about the language and/or the Chinese Filipino people or political or linguistic region's history and background. Some of these documents also list some other interesting references of their own at the back that one may also try and look for if there's available copies of that online. I think this old first one, might be able to cover back those words, expressions, that got taken out, though it's working on a vocab set from centuries ago, which might have slightly changed today or some of the words might not be too commonly heard anymore (like those spanish-derived religious catholic words which I'm not sure if people still say though I'm not from a catholic family). At least, the first 3 below deals with the linguistics of the variety throughout the centuries, the others thereafter, might just indirectly talk about it, which you may do the Ctrl+F kind of browsing.

  1. "The Manila Incunabula and Early Hokkien Studies" (1745s?)
    By: P. Van Der Loon
    http://www2.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/file/1745sWSSKnQ.pdf
  2. "The Language of the Sangleys: A Chinese Vernacular in Missionary Sources of the Seventeenth Century" (1969)
    By: Henning Klöter
    https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=T8NdEa7NckUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
  3. "Language contact in the Philippines: The history and ecology from a Chinese Filipino perspective" (2017)
    By: Wilkinson Daniel Wong Gonzales
    https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED593525.pdf
  4. "THE MANILA CHINESE: COMMUNITY, TRADE AND EMPIRE, C. 1570 – C. 1770" (2014)
    By: Joshua Eng Sin Kueh, M.A.
    https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/712443/Kueh_georgetown_0076D_12743.pdf;sequence=1
  5. Spain, China, and Japan in Manila, 1571-1644" (2015)
    By: Birgit M. Tremml-Werner
    https://oapen.org/download?type=document&docid=628136
  6. "Communication Challenges in the China Seas: A Survey of Early Modern ‘Manila Linguists’"
    By: Birgit M. Tremml-Werner
    https://www.hist.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:74229cfa-1a16-4747-a0a4-366f303c55df/BTW_Comm_challenges.pdf
  7. "Navigating Cultures, Forming Identities" (2013)
    By: Teresita Ang See & Carmelea Ang See
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carmelea_See/publication/270528779_Navigating_Cultures_Forming_Identities/links/5b3afe30a6fdcc8506ea5fe3/Navigating-Cultures-Forming-Identities.pdf
  8. "The massacre of 1603: Chinese perception of the Spaniards in the Philippines" (1998)
    By: José Eugenio Borao
    http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~borao/2Profesores/massacre.pdf

--Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:51, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick initial response, that first source is really old! Both the first and second source, if used, should be introduced with the appropriate context that those are from the 1740s and 1960s. I haven't looked in the articles yet, but they could be interesting. @Mlgc1998: By the way, the percentages from your cemetery study add up to more than 100%, so I've removed them until that is sorted out. — MarkH21 (talk) 23:00, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the list. I've also found some of those in my searches. The second source argues that there is an old variety of Hokkien - Early Manila Hokkien - spoken in the 17th century. (It's not from 1969, but 2011. 1969 is the year of birth of the author.) Wilkinson Daniel Wong Gonzales's 2018 M.A. thesis mentions six waves of Hokkien immigration (which would have brought Hokkien to the Philippines in differing degrees) and three contemporary varieties of Hokkien - Philippine Hokkien, Philippine Hybrid Hokkien (Hokaglish), and Mainland Hokkien (from 'wave 6' immigrants). — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 02:03, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Mlgc1998: And about the stats from the cemetery, I think it's a slight stretch to use that as supporting evidence for the composition/formation of Philippine Hokkien. While it is likely that immigration patterns have an important role in dictating how a new dialect emerges (as some sociolinguists like Peter Trudgill has argued for English dialects - can't remember exactly where), the source that you cite doesn't actually link the immigration patterns with the formation of the dialect. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 02:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MarkH21: The percentages are not supposed to add up to 100% because there is 9.86% from Guangdong, which is not relevant to the discussion. Oops, never mind. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 03:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the ancestry percentage stats from the article. As Justinrleung mentions, it is a stretch to make that connection in WP voice without a source making it directly (otherwise
WP:SYNTH). Without the connection, it's an irrelevant statement about the distribution for a cemetery. Either way, it doesn't belong. — MarkH21 (talk) 03:06, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks,
WP:SYNTH was exactly what I was looking for. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 03:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

@Mlgc1998 and MarkH21: I've also stumbled upon this website, which has some interesting stuff. There's an interesting section on Hokkien orthography, which might address the [d] problem. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 04:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Philippine Hokkien and Eastern Jinjiang Hokkien

Soooo, I've done a bit of research lately and mostly watched videos of people from Quanzhou speaking Hokkien. What really caught my eye was the Jinjiang accent which the Philippine Hokkien accent is known to be based from.

Philippine Hokkien and Eastern Jinjiang Hokkien are EXTREMELY SIMILAR.

Basically, there's two main accents in Jinjiang and it's divided into the East and West accents. The Eastern accent （东部口音） is also known as the “海口腔” presumably because Eastern Jinjiang is basically bordering the sea, and the Western accent （西部口音）is also known as the “府城腔“.

I'll basically be explaining this video (but still watch it because it pronounces the words): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax4YTtcZ5iU&feature=youtu.be

Eastern Jinjiang Hokkien (let's call this EJH) and Western Jinjiang Hokkien (let's call this WJH) have small differences and are definitely completely mutually intelligible.

1. EJH's "e" becomes WJH's "ə" (ə sounds like how we say snake in Mandarin, "shé") For example:

说话 (speak)

  • EJH: seʔ ue
  • WJH: səʔ ue

火 (fire, light)

  • EJH: he
  • WJH: hə

皮 (blanket)

  • EJH: pʰe
  • WJH: pʰə

Notice how Philippine Hokkien says exactly what EJH says, and if you watch the video, the tones are EXACTLY the same.

2. EJH's "i" becomes WJH's "ɯ" 去 (go)

  • EJH: kʰi
  • WJH: kʰɯ

鱼 (fish)

  • EJH: hi
  • WJH: hɯ

箸 (chopsticks)

  • EJH: ti
  • WJH: tɯ

3. EJH's supposed Yang Shang tone is now just Yin Ping

  • Yang Shang is slightly lower than Yin Ping and these two tones are differentiated in WJH, whereas in EJH, they have merged into just Yin Ping, so in theory, EJH does have one less tone than WJH
  • Philippine Hokkien follows the EJH trend and thus, we have merged our Yang Shang and Yin Ping tones into just Yin Ping

This video gives a more specific explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B7XSX-5XtE&feature=youtu.be

To sum this all up, the Philippine Hokkien accent is extremely similar (maybe even 100% similar if we're only talking about tones) to the Eastern Jinjiang accent. The only differences will be our colloquialisms (including old ones no longer used in Fujian) and borrowed words from English and Filipino.

Kamkamkamuti (talk) 17:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@
reliable source supporting your theory, then it can be added. — MarkH21talk 15:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply
]

@MarkH21: Noted, I just found this really interesting and I wanted to put it somewhere. Hopefully more studies will be done about Philippine Hokkien in the future so that it will be easier to find sources. -Kamkamkamuti (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Learning Hokkien?

I'll be putting sources which I think can be useful and interesting for people who want to learn/improve on their Philippine Hokkien.

YouTube Sources:

1. Learn with Mish

  • She teaches Philippine Hokkien: Vocabulary, Listening Comprehension (conversations), and even some things about Lan Nang culture (dos and don'ts)
  • Probably the best, (if not one of the only) sources I've found for learning Philippine Hokkien.

2. 说咱闽南话

  • This channel is almost 100% in Chinese (Mandarin and Hokkien) and mostly features the Jinjiang Accent (which is very similar to the Philippine Hokkien Accent).
  • 说咱闽南话 is also an app and allows you to watch videos, learn common phrases, listen to music, listen to audio, search for literary, vernacular, and colloquial pronunciations in their dictionary, etc. all in Hokkien (based on Western Jinjiang Hokkien)
  • has a channel on Bilibili with the same name
  • Interesting Segments Include:
  • Pohling Tan - He does a variety of videos ranging from vlogs to describing differences in accents to dissecting Hokkien song lyrics. His videos are mainly in Hokkien (Western Jinjiang Accent). He also has a channel on Bilibili called "闽南后生家Pohling".
  • 易起学闽南语 - Explains tones, consonant endings, etc. within the Jinjiang region (the accent that a lot of 80 to 90 year olds in Binondo have), videos are explained in Mandarin
  • 闽南语小剧场 - A series of funny skits wherein about 95% is in Mandarin and they insert Hokkien phrases used often and applicable in daily life.

3. Yukkan Wong

  • Somewhat of a re-uploader of videos (mostly Hokkien variety shows, talk shows, interviews) that aren't posted on YouTube but rather on Chinese sites and platforms.
  • I suggest watching the videos in Quanzhou Hokkien（泉州闽南话）to practice listening comprehension (although do take note that some words used are not used here in Philippine Hokkien and some word definitions may have also evolved).

4. 超度你

  • Uploads videos comparing Hokkien from different regions.
  • I suggest watching this if you want to understand more about Hokkien in general and are just curious about what Hokkien in other places sounds like.
  • Useful if you're going to go to a Hokkien-speaking place abroad because their videos let you hear all the pronunciation differences.
  • Also has a Bilibili channel called “超度您”.

5. Hokkien in Hong Kong

  • Another re-uploader of Hokkien shows.

Instagram Sources:

1. hokkien101

  • Teaches common Hokkien phrases and offers Hokkien classes

2. philippinehokkien

  • Teaches mostly Hokkien vocabulary but also phrases sometimes
  • Posts regularly

These are all the better sources I know for now, when I can't really find anything to watch, I just scroll around on the 说咱闽南话 app and check out their stuff. If you don't wanna do that, I'm sure you can find a lot more Hokkien content on Chinese platforms like Bilibili.


Kamkamkamuti (talk) 18:45, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@
WP:RSPYOUTUBE for example. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 00:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

"sap" for 30+

@Mlgc1998: I've never heard "sap" being used for 30. Is this from personal experience? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mar vin kaiser it's on the less frequent scale just as "siap" for 40+, but I've heard my parents use it. It would be used less frequently because "sap"(卅) competes with "sam"(三), which is like saying three-one for 31, and people more frequently count from 1-10 or 1-20 more than reaching 30+ or 40+ and in counting time, usually its on the 1s to 20s scale. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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