Talk:Robert Plant/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Where has he setteled these days? No way to find out? Is it the US or Britain? Any details on which town? I mean McCafferty's (Nazareth) location is quite known, he even hangs around in pubs with the old dudes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.47.134.136 (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

A small village in north Worcestershire, England. I am sure he (and the residents) value privacy, so let's leave it at that. Vague, yes. Yaffley (talk) 19:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

He might be holed up with Patty Griffin in Austin, TX. NCS 12/4/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.103.234.74 (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Another example is "The Rain Song." - Lovely, but what?

86.0.195.9 (talk) 01:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Clapton had nothing to do with the Honeydrippers. It was Jeff Beck And Jimmy Page Steelslide

I know it's not a great photo by any stretch of the imagination, but it's half-decent, I had it, the article didn't have one so I thought I might as well add it until someone can come up with something better. Angmering 23:20, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, the problem with "something better" is that this photo is well-licensed; other photos have potential copyright problems. Samboy 07:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I just broke the article up into the categories of "Led Zeppelin" and "Solo Career" to make it easier to read. However, it is interesting, to me at least, that Plant has the shortest Wikipedia entry of any of the Led Zeppelin members. Someone should at least add a paragraph on Plant's life prior to Led Zeppelin to begin to remedy this. I'd do it myself but don't have the necessary materials in front of me. 1/6/06

I'd be glad to help on this. I know a little bit about his early years, but not much, but I know where to ask around to get some reliable info. --

Cooleyez229

09:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Man I think that picture of Plant is awesome like who cares how it's framed like seriously come on it's Robert Plant like one of the greatest rock n' roll singers ever. I suggest that you stop worrying so much about the little things such as that and enjoy the big things liek the fact that there are even pictures of Plant and enjoy all that he has contributes to the creation of rock n' roll.

Does anyone have a better Robert Plant photo than the one currently on this page? It's poorly framed and taken from a distance. --Stuart mcmillen 12:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about that. I only added it because I happened to have it and thought I might as well. I would have expected someone to have come along with a better one by now, as it was well over a year ago, but they haven't yet. Angmering 17:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

o misa einai exi sexy patuses

There's an interview with Robert Plant on the BBC Radio 2 Johnny Walker show here: [[1]] if anyone wants to listen to it and add anything relevant to the article - use the LISTEN AGAIN TO THIS SHOW link. I don't know how long the link will remain live tho' Ian Dunster 12:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Why no mention of his voice operation?

Robert Plant is not an alto, maybe a tenor or a very lyrical baritone, there are very few male altos. He just has the ability to sing really high in a light head voice/falsetto-like register.

I agree. Men who sing in the alto range are usually referred to as countertenors anyway...

I think there is a greater focus on Plant's recent history than perhaps there needs to be. granted, the man is a genius and is still creating music, but his peak as an influential individual was during his time in the 7o's with Led Zeppelin. Maybe more information about his past should be provided, or maybe his recent history should be trimmed down. Shaggorama 11:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Anything about Plant in Led Zeppelin would really just be echoing the main Led Zeppelin article. Nadim Scolris 22:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see MORE information about his solo career. He had one before and after Zep, including four grammy nominations, two each for Dreamland and Mighty Rearranger. Pre-zep he also worked with Britain's Godfather of the Blues, Alexis Korner. RobertPlantFan 10:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)RobertPlantFan

Where should information like his guest performances on albums go? What I am thinking of is leaned his voice on Afro Celt Sound Systems Volume Three Further In Time Track Seven “Life Begin Again”? Should there be a section for quest performances?Carl 15:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

you know, i'm pretty sure he's admitted to stuffing his pants with a cucumber to make it look like he was really pack'n downstairs, if you know what i mean.... can anyone verify this? JoeSmack ^Talk 17:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No. Can you? Edelmand 02:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there is some falsity, or at least hyperbole, in the statement "abandoning a promising career as a chartered accountant." Is there a cite that he actually "abandoned" a "promising" career, or even got started studying for a career in accounting? You can't abandon something you don't start, and it can't be promising if you don't start it, either.

From reading about him in years past, I do know that his father wanted Robert to become an accountant. I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that he "abandonded" a career that he, unless someone can prove otherwise, never began. Monkeybreath 09:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I read that this chartered accountant apprenticeship consisted of getting tea for his old, male, grumpy boss. LOL NCS 8/26/06

Robert left school (and home) at 16 to pursue music. His parents wanted him to go into accountancy but it just wasn't for him. Source: http://ledzeppelin.alexreisner.com/plant.html (quotes from a Led Zep Biography) RobertPlantFan 10:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)RobertPlantFan

The statement is sourced from a reputable publication. A reference has now been added to the article. Edelmand 02:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Robert has three kids and several grandkids... Why not include some info on his personal life?

I think it could be mentioned briefly, like his sister Allison, Maureen, Karac, etc. But in general, I think RP's life should remain how he wants it...private. NCS 3/5/07

I also think that more about his personal life should be mentioned, you say you know about his grandkids and family etc. i was wondering would you ba able to share any of this information with me as i am doing a talk all about him and need some information about his family , pleae respond ... stephanie

yeah, I love the fact that it says that he and his wife were in a serious car accident, while never otherwise saying that he is or was married. 12.43.229.154 21:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't Kashmir between India and Pakistan, i.e. on the Asian continent? As opposed to the African one? This makes the sentence 'The passion for diverse musical experiences drove Plant and Page to explore the African continent, specifically Morocco, which most evidently culminated in the classic track, "Kashmir.", just plain wrong.

Please read the article on Kashmir (song) where this is explained. The song was about Morocco. BauerPower 20:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Changed line from (which, ironically...) to (which, oddly...). There is nothing ironic about it at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halogenated (talk • contribs) 14:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

from http://www.superseventies.com/ssrobertplant.html

"My singing voice came out of the loins of a civil engineer. I didn't ask him too much about it. He was a bit embarrassed about me being around at all. Seriously, I don't know where my voice comes from. I listened a lot to Ray Charles. I wanted to be Ray Charles. I also liked to listen to Mose Allison, Oscar Brown, Jr., Maurice Williams & the Zodiacs. I loved the way Maurice Williams' voice used to sort of trail around and leave you high up in the clouds, and then swoop down again." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 21:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The introduction to this article comes off as a gushing fanzine! The rest of the article might be POV, too. I dunno. I quit reading after that, since I was only trying to find out how high one of his singles charted. It's sad that there is so much thinly-veiled praise for Plant's all-around godhood, yet the article cannot specify how high "Big Log" charted. Less POV and more facts, please. --63.25.102.188 (talk) 22:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

```Jan. 9, 2008 Actually the reference to "I am a golden god" can be found in Stephen Davis' Hammer of the Gods: The Led Zepplin Saga, 1985, William Morrow and Company. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tap222man (talk • contribs) 04:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed the PERSONAL section. It's unsourced, and frankly it's not really encyclopedic. Please don't just restore it - if nothing else, this removal is justifiable per

03:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added parents names, as per the England BMD Index 1837 - 1984

MicheleFloyd (talk) 13:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

What did Plant have to do with Rockestra? Citation needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.252.208.28 (talk) 07:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This list was getting out of hand, with many names being added without support. I've culled the list down to just a few examples, with citations. Any names re-added will require citations (remember, to cite "influence" you have to verify that the artist themself acknowledges or cites the influence, not just a claim that they sound similar). Jgm (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Did he marry anyone else after Maureen? Is he married now? etc etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.63.218 (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to know why his voice is so much deeper on stage. I don't know much about Led Zeppelin, and if that was just his stage style, but I'd like to know if it was because they altered his voice during recording.

• His voice was not altered during recording. As he's aged his voice, like all singers when they get older, has gotten deeper. If you listen to earlier live recordings such as the BBC Sessions his voice sounds almost exactly the same as on the studio albums. Crazyale 00:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I won't put this in the article, because I read it only in a book of sheet music, but Plant supposedly sang higher than

05:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Robert Plant reportedly had surgery on his vocal chords to remove polyps, which are common among singers, sometime in late 1973 or 1974. Plant's voice was not deeper onstage until 1973 and thereafter. It is widely believed that overuse and abuse (cigarettes, cocaine) caused a deterioration in his vocal quality which prohibited him from consistently hitting high notes live. It is true that people's voices get huskier as they age. I think that is partly the case here, as well. Monkeybreath 09:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Generally speaking tenor vocal parts (which I believe Plant sang in his heyday) are sung one octave lower than they are written. Hence, a tenor line that appears to start on middle C is actually starting one octave lower, down in the bass clef, "true" middle C appears in the middle of the treble clef, and the "tenor high C" is two hashmarks above treble clef. Sometimes the treble clef sign will have a stylized 8 (for octava bassa) appended to it to help dispel confusion (ie, Why does the tenor sing higher than soprano?). Hope that helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.165.57.190 (talk) 05:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The term "leggiero" is hardly accurate when applied to a singer like Robert Plant. "Leggiero" is not simply a question of the vocal range, but also the vocal color and technique. "Leggiero" refers to singers who sing specific operatic roles and other classical solo music. The various classifications of classically trained singers aren't really applicable to rock and pop singers, and trying to shoehorn Plant into the "leggiero tenor" category (or any other operatic tenor categories) offers no elucidation on his actual singing voice. The term "rock tenor" would be more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.250.247 (talk) 03:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

"Axl Rose of Guns N' Roses was kicked out of many Los Angeles bands for his vocal similarity to Plant.[24]"

Footnote 24 is an interview with Jeff Buckley, which doesn't mention Axl Rose, Guns N' Roses, Los Angeles, anybody getting kicked out of anything, or vocal styles. I'm not sure what it's supposed to point to, but it makes no sense here, and doesn't support this claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.16.40.113 (talk) 06:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Verification of his death please. Internet news sites and Google search turns up nothing. --70.68.26.228 (talk) 11:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Perhaps because he isn't dead, duh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MReap (talk • contribs) 17:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC) l Oh, sheesh! Not this stuff! First Sir Paul, now RP! So not true! If Robert is dead, who was that look alike I saw on stage with Alison Krauss at Madison Square Garden on June 10, 2008? There is a blog post out there, which is sick, reporting that RP died in the infamous car crash in Rhodes in the 70s, maybe that's how this mess started. NCS 11/07/08 Looks like it's going around. Someone recently reported Daltrey had heart failure.Tattoo2000 (talk) 05:29, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The article mentions a "new album by original Fairport vocalist Judy Dyble, due for release early 2009." Was this ever released? I see no mention of it on Dyble's page. Could someone please add more information or delete this sentence? GoingBatty (talk) 02:25, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Artists Of The Century => Artists of the Century => back to Artists Of The Century. The footnotes of this article are riddled with such errors. Q Magazine wouldn't know the difference, The Mirror spells it, Artist's of the Century, and so it goes. Hilarious.--Jumbolino (talk) 20:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Any info of him currently having a son?

• I'm only aware of one son, who died in the '70s. --Cholmes75 21:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

He had another son not long after Karac Plant died, named Logan Romero Plant. Last I heard he was the lead singer of a band called Black Country Bandits, but does not use his last name. --

Cooleyez229

04:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't know whether it's true or not...there are conflicting reports...R. Plant is supposed to have another son, born after Logan Romero, with the singer Alannah Myles (sp?) named Jesse Lee. He'd be around 16 now I think. Maybe someone can verify this. NCS 9/28/06

Robert has another son, Jessie Lee, born 1993. His mother is NOT Alannah Myles. Robert prefers to respect Jessie's mom's privacy by not naming her. RobertPlantFan 10:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)RobertPlantFan

So why is all of this on the talk page, and not in the actual article? Seems like useful info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.184.18 (talk) 02:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I too have noticed the absolute dearth of personal information on his entry. Is that little really known about his personal life, marital status, children, etc.? Seems odd. Ronstock (talk) 15:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

For those who are interested, according to the semi-reliable website FamilyZepp, Robert has four kids, but one is deceased. The first three were all with his ex-wife Maureen: Carmen (born 1968), Karac (born 1971, died 1977), and Logan (born 1979). Logan is known as "Logan Romero" of the band Black Country Bandits. After Robert and Maureen's divorce in around 1983, Robert's fourth kid Jesse Lee was born in 1991. His mom is Maureen's sister Shirley and not Alannah Myles as is rumored. The FamilyZepp site says that Robert now has five grandkids but with little info. Note that this website is probably not totally reliable because it says that Robert dated Tori Amos for an extended period and I don't think that's true. Anyway. Robert has taken pains to keep his private life private and probably doesn't want his kids getting unwanted attention. --DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 18:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so we all know Plant is an A2 at lowest in going to california. NOW I HAVE PROOF PLANT CAN REACH A6....here are the proofs:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4VlKVysXe0 highest note C6. AND NOW:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpytsMK41eQ At 5:08 An A6! And can Anybody tell me which note is it at 9:56 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZdY-ViftvU&translated%AD=1

Youtube is not a

reliable source. We'll need something from a reputed magazine, newspaper or book to back up the claim. Thanks. Scieberking (talk

) 19:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Promonition

No one says it better than Song Remains the Same. Bash! Such insightful drama in theatres, that respond quite differently than live audiences. Many have thoughts of the hereafter, but possibly others look on to see what persons do with their inventions. Big Love. peace. Samson, leaves, eyes, Joan of Arc, Gemini75.201.214.15 (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC) d

Dude, don't edit whilst tripping. It's not good for you. 87.115.98.16 (talk) 12:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

where did the D&D section go i tried to show a friend since we're both avid d&D players, but its gone anybody know the deal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.107.213.35 (talk) 01:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The Dungeons and Dragons section was removed soon after it was added because it consisted entirely of material that could not be

copyright violation. Reading the linked articles in the previous sentence before adding material to articles is recommended. The text which was removed can be found in the article history here – if added back without sources, it will be removed again. Sswonk (talk

) 03:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

How about him and Patty Griffin, married or no? NCS 12/4/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.83.120.99 (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

How come this current photo of Plant shows him with a moustache? When he was with Led Zeppelin, John Bonham was the only member with a moustache. King of smart alecks 14:44, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Uhhh, he grew one...people change. And he did have a goatee/moustache for a time while with Zep, in the earlier years. Check out the pictures on Google of Zep. NCS 12/4/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.83.120.99 (talk) 20:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I see that there are some information about Plant having some

) 21:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

As a BRITON I'd reckon I'd be more likely to refer to the Roma as "gypsies" and the other lot as "travellers". Or worse. And at the time Plant was born there weren't any hippies anyway. Mr Larrington (talk) 19:24, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

To follow the Template:Infobox musical artist#genre, i have changed the genres in the infobox.

It has already been done for JP and JPJ — Preceding

) 20:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

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I'm not disputing the facts here, but I can't believe this guy is only 60! He looks soooooooo much older! --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 02:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Awwww..that's mean. He's 60, born 8/20/48. NCS 11/07/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.139.146 (talk) 03:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Lust, LIQUER AND COCAIN WILL DO THAT TO YA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.73.65 (talk) 08:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Liquer and cocain will but lust won't --White Hawk (talk) 18:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

He most certainly is not born in 1948, because male vocal chords go still through puberty when he was supposedly already professionally active as a minor. He is, apart from The Rolling Stones people, not the only music legend to lie about his age.Sgracanin (talk) 11:02, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

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No mention of Steve Marriott in the entire article despite his being a huge influence on Plant. Listen to the Small Faces' "You Need Loving," and it will knock you off your feet to hear where Plant obviously got his style. Plant is constantly credited as a rock pioneer for using his high register when he was actually imitating Marriott. The original Muddy Waters song is in a low register that Marriott couldn't reach, so he came up with the idea of pushing his modal voice into a high register to create a powerful, almost anguished sound that we hear in rock every day now but was a novel thing then, particularly among white singers. Suddenly, guys could sing high notes and sound passionate but manly instead of girly.

Page originally wanted Marriott as LZ's lead singer, but the Small Faces' management said no way. Marriott suggested to Page that he take a look at this little blond kid, "Percy" Plant, who hung around them and enjoyed imitating Marriott. "Whole Lotta Love" is a blatant imitation of Marriott's vocal technique and phrasing in "You Need Loving." (It didn't bother Marriott, who seemed to regard it all as flattering and amusing.) Now, I'm a fan of Plant's and acknowledge his own contributions to rock music. But it is inaccurate to credit him with Marriott's huge contribution. Marriott was the better singer, and his unique style changed rock music in a major way. Dianalarose (talk) 18:27, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

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It says at the Down by the Seaside page that Plant also plays guitar. Shouldn't this be mentioned somewhere in the article? maybe as a hobby or secondary instrument?

--- Or in the instruments section. There's actually quite a lot of footage of him playing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.68.247.46 (talk) 14:51, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't often contribute to wikipedia but I did list harmonica under his instruments the other day and it was gone the next day. No big deal, just curious as to why?

He should also have guitar, but apparently he's not 'known enough' for them to be on the page. AddingInstruments (talk) 02:51, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

See message I left on your talk. -

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He does not have natural hair like that at age 62 (as in the article photo), which is simply impossible for any human of that age. This is ridiculous and absurd. Where is the section in the article -- which might be labelled "Showmanship" -- describing and explaining the fake hair and what he has contrived and modified to appear that way? The entire article is age-bigoted, which should be progressively eliminated in Wiki; biased toward "younger days," with all younger images (or phony youthful-seeming images). Like Elton, let's see the real recent photo of Robert with a bald head and gray hair, like a natural and honest human of advanced age (and dignity with aging).Starhistory22 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

That would be all very good if we had a picture of the bald or grey Robert Plant. Until we do, we will have to use those of his show-biz persona.--Egghead06 (talk) 06:31, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there 2 albums by the Honeydrippers ? If so, I can find no mention of it on the Robert Plant Homepage or on this website. 11/8/05 Terri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.196.236.2 (talk) 21:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There was only 1 Honeydrippers album. There has been talk kicked around for years about making a 2nd one, it has yet to materialize. NCS 2/17/06

"His performance in the 1969 song "Communication Breakdown" is particularly intense and is often cited as one of the first examples of the modern punk vocal style."

This feels like a tremendous "reach" to me. If true, it should probably be cited. There are a lot of performers a lot earlier in the 60's (particularly from the Beat scene) who were far closer in vocal style and approach to what would be considered "punk". Certainly Plant's style was tremendously influential in rock music, but unless this can be well cited, I really feel it should be excluded. Steven Dixon — Preceding unsigned comment added by StevenDixon (talk • contribs) 21:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking to add some more credible sources to this article, since some of the information presented contains no citations. Are biography.com, Rolling Stone Magazine, and a radio network website (Chicago's 97.1 The Drive) credible sources to use?

Enaumann (talk) 15:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC) Emma

Should Sensational Space Shifters be added to Associated acts in the infobox? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Martinevans123 I reverted its deletion before seeing this thread.
Yes it should, as it clearly comes under Template:Infobox musical artist#associated acts "For individuals: groups of which he or she has been a member" - there is no prohibition of redlinks Arjayay (talk) 10:41, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree, although I think a single redlink in the article might be sufficient here. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:56, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed - I have removed the redlink from the infobox, but retained the text. - Arjayay (talk) 09:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

I added some more information under the early life section. It stated that information was needed between 1969-1975. Looking for feedback about the information I wrote and citations used.

Enaumann (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC) Emma

Would the new group/band Plant is a part of be eligible to be considered among his associated acts?

) 17:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

He has played harmonica on at least four studio records. Can this be added? Jason (talk) 18:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

It can and should be in the article, but not the infobox per Template:Infobox musical artist#instrument. Secondary instruments are not listed in the infobox. Secondary instruments are meant to be brought up in the article body. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:34, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

According to [2], the band's name was neither Hobbstweedle nor connected with Tolkien's literature. It was Obs-Tweedle, a contraction of Obs[cure] and tweedle (a word meaning "to sing or whistle" from the 1680s). See also [3] for the band's line-up. The spelling of the band name varies between Obs-Tweedle, Obstweedle, and Obs Tweedle, but this gig clipping [4] spells it Obs-Tweedle, so I've gone with that. Phil Champ (talk) 16:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

We need to add a plagiarism tab on Plant and Zeppelin (as well as with Page). Momo3000Mama (talk) 08:26, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

He abandoned training as a chartered accountant after only two weeks to attend college in an effort to gain more GCE passes and to become part of the English Midlands blues scene.

What does this mean? Why was he trying to "gain more GCE passes"?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Zoso Robert Plant feather symbol.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:14, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

You don't even know which references you could check for the topic. 37.47.202.89 (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Saving Grace 95.149.189.220 (talk) 03:46, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

How are they associated and what reference are you using to support your claim ? - FlightTime (open channel) 03:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Enaumann.

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) 08:42, 18 January 2022 (UTC)