Talk:Robert Vaughan Gorle
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Controversy
I'm moving this from the article to here for further discussion:
His father was Major Harry Vaughan Gorle D.S.O, A.S.C. When Robert died in 1937 of yellow fever, his personal military effects were passed to his father, Maj. H. V. Gorle who passed away in 1951. The medals of both Robert Gorle and Harry Gorle were passed on to Joan Gorle, Harry's daughter. The medals remained in her possession in Harare, Zimbabwe until sometime in the 1980's when they went missing without a trace. It is now known that the medal was temporarily in the possession of Kevin Patience between the possession of the family and Lord Ashcroft, but how Mr PatienceCite error: The <ref> tag name cannot be a simple integer (see the help page). came to acquire the V.C. is as yet, unknown. The Victoria Cross first appeared on the open market on the collection of the Rt. Hon. The Lord Ashcroft in 1993. It is unknown how the medal came to be in his collection after mysteriously vanishing from Africa and is currently being unofficially investigated. Joan Gorle passed away in 2005 at Pretoria and the heirloom then legally passed on to her children. Ashattock (talk) 01:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
There are a couple of issues here that need to be worked out.
- Is his father actually notable by WP:MILNG? The DSO is a worthy accomplishment, but doesn't rate highly enough to warrant an article. Did he do anything else of note that is covered in outside sources?
I am working on this issue and will eventually produce something of value. It is unfortunate that the major's daughter is unavailable to comment on this matter, but I'm sure I can get something from the family.
on this issue, I'd say that Harry Gorle's award was notable because he was promoted to the rank of major to receive it. It is also noted that anyone who was a junior officer and was promoted specifically to gain such an award was deemed to have narrowly missed an opportunity to be awarded the V.C. purely because they were not of sufficiently high rank to attain that merit at that time or there were not sufficient "mentions". The reason the DSO is mentioned is to show a family tradition of military bravery and that Robert's award was in line with past member's achievements too. Ashattock (talk) 01:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- The history of his medal is really only notable if it's covered by outside sources, however it got into the Ashcroft collection. Unsubstantiated allegations not covered by independent sources are not article worthy as they cannot be verified, regardless how true they may or may not be. See WP:VNT.
- Do not replace this material on the article page until this information meets the standards for verifiability and notability. Attempts to do so will not be taken lightly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:12, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I have established through communications with Lord Ashcroft's appointees that there was no appearance of any illegality of the sale of the V.C. The Rt Hon Lord Ashcroft's curator of the collection was most helpful in bringing to light much of the missing history but we are still trying to establish who exactly it was that sold the medal. The company that it was purchased through did so as an agency for an unnamed private seller. We know from family history that the medal was in the possession of Joan Gorle until 1989. She was not in the habit of checking her valuables often as they were once stored in a secure wooden chest made by her second husband, Geoffrey Shaw Vincent who was also a military man. Since so many medals have been stolen, Interpol have placed a moratorium on the international transportation of the medals but this did not occur until well after 1993. The story so far runs thus: the family in Harare, Zimbabwe requested an insurance assessor to value the family heirlooms. The insurance assessor then passed the medals on to a friend of his who was an highly regarded private international collector who then took them to England for professional valuation. I remember that my grandmother said she had actually given the insurance assessor permission to have the medal valued by this third party. The medals were never seen by the family ever again. It was only at the latter end of 2015 that I was allowed sight of an image of the collection of my grand-uncle Rob's campaign medals and the V.C. itself. As far as I know, Rob's father's DSO is still in South Africa yet today I saw a website that has pictures of medals that I recognised from our family collection and among them is the DSO and the various other medals of Major Gorle. I know that the last owner of the said medals was my uncle, David J M Vincent, whom passed away in 2006 a short while after his mother. These two persons were the sole eye-witnesses that could have accounted for the missing history of the Gorle V.C. in a court of law. It is a great loss to the family, but unfortunately the person whom sold the V.C. was the sole financial beneficiary of the medal's sale. Although Mrs Vincent still holds the miniature dress medals of the DSO and the VC, they are of no value bar that of sentimentality. At some point I endeavour to visit the IWM and with permission from Lord Ashcroft, obtain a photograph of the VC for use on the Gorle VC article. Should anybody wish to see the communications regarding this issue, I would be happy to share them with permission from the correspondents of each party, subject to the UK's Data Protection Act.Ashattock (talk) 19:21, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Death by: guesses?
Uncle Rob took ill in 1937. He had a terrible fever and the symptoms were referred to as being like pneumonia, however it had been yellow fever. I am trying to obtain a picture of the original copy from the family in South Africa. It is immaterial to his military achievements, but at least having the facts correct is a good start. There are many books and articles that got a number of things wrong, such as the date of his death which was the 9th and announced on the 10th. Even a "reliable" source got that wrong. Much of the updated information can be verified from this source and others. Even a printed publication got some facts wrong too. The original date of his birth on this article was out by several months. According to official records he was born in 1896 during the March census."Index entry". FreeBMD. ONS. Retrieved 1 June 2016.. I am trying to obtain a copy of his birth certificate and information about his life direct from The National Archives in Zimababwe. I happen to hae obtained a photo of his grave in Stellawood cemetery too. In due course, I will try to post it up for his article.