Talk:Sinéad O'Connor/Archive 3

This edit request to Sinéad O'Connor has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove the reference to "committed suicide" and replace with "died by suicide" 134.126.65.173 (talk) 20:06, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

done --Ekaterina Colclough (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Do not include "suicide" at all - cause of death is still unknown. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Pretty sure this is in reference to the line about her son. I've gone ahead and made the change. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 22:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Though looking closer, neither the source currently provided there ([1]) nor the article it that souce links to to about the son's death ([2]) says he died by suicide. It says he went missing and that he'd been on suicide watch, and quotes Sinéad O'Connor's tweets about suicide, but sources I'm finding from 2022 mostly don't list the cause of death or call it an "apparent" suicide (e.g. [3]).

I see some recent sources that do describe Shane's death as suicide, but they all link to articles that don't (e.g. [4] but links to [5]). I removed it from the article for the moment; if someone has a good source here I'll add it back in. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 22:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35031186 - "More trauma came in January 2022, when her 17-year-old son Shane took his own life. The musician posted a series of concerning tweets in the wake of his death, indicating she was considering suicide and telling followers she had been admitted to hospital." 213.105.99.162 (talk) 13:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

That looks good to me; I've restored "died by suicide" to the article with this source. Thanks. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 16:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Is this her real name, see https://twitter.com/786OmShahid 158.181.71.74 (talk) 15:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

What the "real" name is, is not so easy to answer. So multiple media report "Sinead Marie-Bernarde O’Connor" as her birth name.[6][7][8] Then there is the widely reported name change in 2017/2018.[9] But in 2021 she gave an interview, that she is still planning to legally change her name.[10] She performed further unter the original name, reffered to herself as Shuhada' Sadaqat in the last years. Legal name I would say unknown.--Maphry (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Sinéad O'Connor has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the top section in the third paragraph beginning "In 1999, O'Connor was ordained"... there is a link on the words "Latin Tridentine Church" to a Wikipedia article "List of communities using the Tridentine Mass". These communities are Roman Catholic orders (communities) that do not have ordination of women. This link is misleading to users, and this link should be removed. If O'Connor did have an ordination ceremony in the past, it would not have anything to do with these groups. Marcifilivs (talk) 16:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

A fair point, and true re the link being incorrect - will action. SeoR (talk) 17:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done SeoR (talk) 19:03, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if this is an issue on my end but according to Wikipedia, Sinead O'Connor is still alive. There's plenty of sources to say that's no longer the case, is there a reason I've missed that this article hasn't been updated? 86.19.86.233 (talk) 11:51, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

You may be seeing a cached copy - the article has noted her death since minutes after it was announced, and tenses and >200 further edits based on commentary and otherwise have followed. Thanks for making sure, we do aim to be accurate on biographies. SeoR (talk) 12:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@SeoR I'm not sure, I've gone so far as deleting and reinstalling the wiki app, going in different devices etc and it still is present tense. Regardless, thank you! sure this is my issue somewhere, I'll keep looking Sarcasmatbest (talk) 14:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

This is indeed strange - I can assure you (and you can see from the edit history) that we are hundreds of edits post-announcement, with constant further work. My app shows the current article albeit I do mostly use Wikipedia from a laptop. SeoR (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@SeoR Yeah I can see all the edits. I may just be going mad. thanks for the time! shame we even have to be doing this for her article Sarcasmatbest (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sarcasmatbest, she has died the time it says, I have looked it up. She died almost 11:59pm, the 25. Over5help550 (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I just created a draft for the

I agree; good work. Incidentally, I've just moved the draft to include the síneadh fada in her first name (Sinéad, instead of Sinead). — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 15:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a good idea. I support a separate article. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 22:14, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

But separate article or not it seems a good summary should still exist on this page, and the first two paragraphs already on this page probably should stay as the summary. It is maybe the thing she's best known for, at least in the media, and she knew at the time that her statement would result in a major sacrifice of her career which, at the time, rivaled Madonna as the world's major female singer. In either case the incident could also be summarized in the lead of this page, summarizing her act of concern against the Catholic Church abuse and its ongoing cover-up, with a link to the new article. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Sinéad O'Connor has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I'd like the following be added on top of 2020s musical career section: "In October 2020, O'Connor released a cover of Mahalia Jackson’s Trouble of the World, with proceeds from the single to benefit Black Lives Matter charities.^[1]"

It's an important cause, and another strong statement by Sinéad. SoupePrimordiale (talk) 00:52, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 01:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Sinéad O'Connor has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Sinéad O’Connor age at death ” change 56 to 57 2605:8D80:32F:CDD4:E57D:E83B:ECC5:A036 (talk) 02:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: All reliable sources say that she died at 56. They also all say she was born 8 December 1966, meaning her 57th birthday would be on 8 December 2023, which is more than 4 months from today. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 03:38, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Sinéad O'Connor has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

--Add to death column-- On July 27th, the day after Sinead's death, Police stated that they found Sinead "unresponsive" at her home in London on the day she died. She was pronounced dead at the scene at 11:18 BST. Her death investigation is currently ongoing, and Police currently does not consider her death to be suspicious. ^[1] Essereforzaferrari (talk) 10:57, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done That's not what the article says at all - there is no mention of the date of death. That may be determined following a PM. Will edit to include actually reported details. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I see my comment above has been overtaken by subsequent verification, but my point about the article not saying what you think it says still stands. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

"A Scotland Yard spokesperson said: “Police were called at 11.18pm on Wednesday, July 26 to reports of an unresponsive woman at a residential address in the SE24 area"

https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/singer-sinead-o-connor-dead-irish-singer-b1096994.html

I hope this helps, if it doesn't I apologise. Essereforzaferrari (talk) 13:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

 Already done The current version of the article contains this information in the death section. If I'm misunderstanding the edit request, let me know. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 03:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

this page omits a lot of relevant information about Sinead, such as the recent suicide of her son and her bipolar diagnosis. 51.7.115.204 (talk) 10:53, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Get an account and add it then. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Coroner is spelled coronor 2A00:23C7:E93B:2401:52A:FF6D:9288:25E9 (talk) 10:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

That is totally wrong - check any English dictionary. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I think they were trying to point out that it was spelled incorrectly as "coronor" in the article. This has since been fixed. Ferocious Flying Ferrets 14:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Can someone please add Sinead's last child to her Marriages and Children section. Here are the links https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12341693/Who-Sinead-OConnors-children.html https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/sinead-oconnor-beloved-kids-tragic-30565444 He is called Yeshua Bonadio. Thank you Veryscarymary (talk) 11:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Please always add new sections at the bottom of the page. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Are all of her children's names

WP:BLPNAME

. These are grieving people

See also

WP:DAILYMAIL: There is consensus that the Daily Mail (including its online version, MailOnline) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is generally prohibited, especially when other sources exist that are more reliable. As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles. Kire1975 (talk

) 16:44, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I totally agree with the last commenter, on both issues. Minors' names are not advisable and certainly not necessary, and all information gleaned from the Daily Mail should be discounted. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:18, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I removed the category of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church as the present sources didn't support it. This 1999 news source does not mention excommunication and merely says that the CC does not recognise women priests.

In another part of the article it says that O'Connor has written to three Popes to be excommunicated. All three have been on the throne since her "ordination" and quite clearly none of them cared, if she had to keep asking.

This article I found from last December says that any woman claiming ordination will be excommunicated, but doesn't mention O'Connor. [11] Anyone claiming it's the rules that all ordained women are excommunicated is breaking

That's a misreading of the policy. See also

WP:SKYISBLUE. It's a fact that allowing oneself to be ordained by someone not in communion with Rome results in automatic excommunication (and there are other such grounds). In any case, there are other sources - I found these with a cursory search and am tight for time, or I'd post a couple more: 1, 2. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!}

19:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Found this LA Times article about when she wore a wig to observe people protesting her: [12]. Would be good to weave into the article. Thriley (talk) 04:56, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't we have a reliable date and cause of death yet? It's been 11 days. Aminabzz (talk) 09:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

No, we don't. There will be a post mortem, which may or not be reported on; there may be an inquest, which will be reported on if one takes place. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Has she ever noted how she converted to Islam (a homophobe religion) while she was an LGBT supporter? Aminabzz (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you could research that - and likewise for the other homophobic religion she was ordained into, i.e., Christianity? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

She was a critique for other religions (of course not because of their homophobic nature).

On the other hand she was praising Islam even with its homophobic nature. Aminabzz (talk) 15:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a place to discuss improvements to the Wikipedia article, not a place to discuss Sinead O'Connor or share your opinions of her (see

WP:NOTAFORUM). If you don't have any changes to suggest or sources to base those changes on then there's nothing to discuss here. Popcornfud (talk

) 15:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Her birth name, as given in the intro of this article (born Sinéad Marie Bernadette O'Connor), seems to be wrong.

In her book Rememberings, Sinéad O'Connor says that her second name is Marie Bernarde, not Marie Bernadette.

"... and because my second name Marie Bernarde is the same as the 19th-Century maiden who saw the Virgin Mary there" 

(You can listen for yourself here at 16:20 -> Rememberings - Read by Sinéad O'Connor (audiobook sample) - Direct link to 16:17)

And it's true. According to Wikipedia, Bernadette Soubirous' birth name was Marie Bernarde, not Marie Bernadette. -> Bernadette Soubirous - Early life

Marie Bernarde Soubirous was the daughter of François Soubirous (1807–1871), a miller, and Louise (née Casteròt; 1825–1866), a laundress.

I also found an example with Sinéad's full name correctly written, except for the diacritics:

In This Heart Digital Sheet Music By Sinead Marie Bernarde O Connor

In addition, her last Twitter account which she created in early July, shows her first and her second name written this way:

Sinead Marie-Bernarde Aoibheann O’Connor

I have no idea where Aoibheann comes from, but it's clearly Bernarde, not Bernadette.

So, there is evidence that the form Sinéad Marie Bernadette O'Connor isn't the correct one. 2001:9E8:4609:41A8:26D4:16F8:D40E:B99 (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The Early life section states this:

At the age of 15, following her acts of shoplifting and truancy, O'Connor was placed for 18 months in a Magdalene asylum, the Grianán Training Centre in Drumcondra run by the Order of Our Lady of Charity.^[1]

Drumconrath, a village in Co. Meath. has nothing to do with Drumcondra, an inner suburb on the Northside of Dublin.

In this article, published in the Washington Post in 2010, Sinéad O'Connor wrote that An Grianán Training Centre was located in Dublin.

I experienced this personally. When I was a young girl, my mother -- an abusive, less-than-perfect parent -- encouraged me to shoplift. After being caught once too often, I spent 18 months in An Grianán Training Centre, an institution in Dublin for girls with behavioral problems, at the recommendation of a social worker. An Grianán was one of the now-infamous church-sponsored "Magdalene laundries," which housed pregnant teenagers and uncooperative young women. We worked in the basement, washing priests' clothes in sinks with cold water and bars of soap. We studied math and typing. We had limited contact with our families. We earned no wages. One of the nuns, at least, was kind to me and gave me my first guitar.

An Grianán was a product of the Irish government's relationship with the Vatican -- the church had a "special position" codified in our constitution until 1972. As recently as 2007, 98 percent of Irish schools were run by the Catholic Church.

In 2019, TheJournal.ie published two articles highlighting unsolved problems related with An Grianán Training Centre:

An Grianán Training Centre was attached to St Mary’s High Park Convent’s Magdalene laundry in Drumcondra.^[2]

An Grianán - Irish for ‘sunny place’ – was used as a training centre for young girls and was adjacent to the High Park Magdalene Laundry in Drumcondra.^[2]

Having consulted the nun who ran An Grianán from 1980 onwards, a representative of the Sisters advised that the unit “was an entirely separate unit from St. Mary’s even though they shared the large building”. “I have advised in the past how the physical layout of the of the teenage unit cut them off completely from the refuge and laundry,” the order’s representative replied to the department.^[2]

The Department [of Justice] is currently [2019] questioning a number of women’s claims, Lyon claims. They are specifically related to An Grianán Training Centre and the period of time women were admitted to the adjacent High Park Convent’s Magdalene laundry.

In more than one case the department is citing information provided by religious orders which contradicts the women’s claims, says Lyon. She has called on the department to furnish the religious orders’ contradictory information to the women and/or their legal representation.^[3]

And here is the location of High Park: openstreetmap

There are however inconsistencies within the timeline.

In Feb 1990, John O'Connor, Sinéad's father, gave an interview to The Independent. He told them this:

"... Then Sinead was caught knocking off a pair of shoes in town.

" ... We heard about this school in Dublin for girls with behavioural problems, run by Sister Margaret, and we decided to send her there for six months. She used to stay there at night, continuing to go to Maryfield School by day and coming home to us at weekends. [...] "Sister Margaret bought her a guitar for Christmas and she used to sing for the other kids. [...]

"At the end of her six months with Sister Margaret, we had to find another school for Sinead. We wanted a boarding school, an understanding one, where she could be with us at weekends. [...]

"Then we heard about Newtown College in Waterford. It's run by Quakers [...]

"... She was there for two years and the high point was the school concerts. The best part of her school reports was the bit that said: 'Thanks for the exhilarating performances'. She used to sing in a folk club in Waterford and I still have the copy of the Waterford Star in which the reviewer said that she would go places. [...]

"One of the songs on 'The Lion and the Cobra' she wrote while she was there. She was 17, CND in Waterford was running a competition for an anti-atomic weapons song and that was when she wrote 'Drink Before the War'. She didn't win the competition.

Sister Margaret, mentioned by Sinéad's father, is also mentioned in one of the articles published by TheJournal.ie in 2019.^[2]

The Sisters of Our Lady of Charity, the order that ran An Grianán and High Park, claims it stopped sending girls to the laundry after 1980 when Sister Margaret took over its operation.

While Sinéad in 2010 said, she spent 18 months in An Grianán Training Centre, her father said in 1990 that she spent 6 months in An Grianán and two years at Newtown College in Waterford.

I think there is more information and clarification needed in order to get a consistent timeline.

2001:9E8:4614:B7BC:2D33:8652:C782:672 (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Well caught on both - the timing inconsistencies must be checked and sorted, while on the link, that piped erroneous link is just bizarre, and I will sort it right away. SeoR (talk) 22:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I presume we're still not at the point at which we can

Can the date be removed until we get verification? 2601:19C:4A09:435C:5542:4DEA:61C7:D860 (talk) 20:06, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it should be. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to make

WP:V. MIDI (talk

) 20:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The date has been verified to be 26 July according to BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-66318626 73.89.128.20 (talk) 20:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Where in that link does it confirm the day she died (vs the day her death was announced, which isn't the same thing). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 20:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

An editor added that the date was confirmed to be 26 July, even though the article doesn’t mention a date of death. 73.89.128.20 (talk) 20:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, the date of her death is nowhere confirmed, i'll remove it from the article. Saschaporsche (talk) 20:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I have also removed it. We need to wait until there's a

WP:RS reporting the actual date. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!}

21:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian confirms her date of death to be 26 July:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jul/26/sinead-oconnor-obituary 2601:19C:4A09:4585:643B:3AA7:97AD:FFD1 (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Any site will tell when she died. It was yesterday morning. 2600:6C46:587F:C375:4D4A:45B0:F3EE:481A (talk) 21:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding 3RR; this might fall into the BLP exemption, but I've also put a message at

WP:BLPN since I share your discomfort with making reverts even if it's exempt from 3RR and I'm hopeful others can help. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits}

) 23:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The actual time of her death and date was the 25, at 11:22 pm I'm pretty sure. Over5help550 (talk) 22:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Where can this be confirmed? Magnus Bodin (talk) 19:25, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Per The Guardian: Sinéad Marie Bernadette O’Connor, or Shuhada’ Sadaqat, musician, born 8 December 1966; died 26 July 2023. Rusted AutoParts 21:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure they have that actually from a source or are just deriving it from the date of the family's announcement (which didn't specify a date of death). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 22:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

That is

original research on your end. Guardian make clear distinction's when a date of death was still unknown. Rusted AutoParts

22:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

(Copied from Rusted AutoParts talk page:) "People have been adding a supposed date of death all evening, even though there was no article stating that today was the date of death. See the Talk page. Yes, I missed your addition - apologies - but I have a sneaking suspicion that The Guardian didn't properly fact-check that date either and just made an assumption; it's still not live on any Irish news website, with most still saying "The death has been announced..." and giving no date of death - see RTÉ as of 20 minutes ago, The Irish Times, and The Irish Independent (around an hour ago). As this is still effectively a BLP, you need better sourcing than the final line of one obit from a different country."

Agree with ZimXalaBim. The final line of a foreign obit is not enough. Reverting. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Bastun: Having a "sneaking suspicion" does not merit discrediting a reputable outlet like The Guardian who, as stated, make clarification about if a DOD is known or not, see their obituaries for Sean Connery (DOD eventually corroborated via death ceritificate) or Leonard Cohen (whose obituary they updated when the proper DOD was stipulated). They don't just guess. Even so, making that assumption is OR. So I fail to see why the inclusion of a DOD is being withheld, outside of you already making investment in the stance that it's unknown. Rusted AutoParts 22:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, dismissing the outlet as a "foreign obit" feels....prejudiced, don't you think? Are they not able to write a correct report just because they aren't Irish? Rusted AutoParts 22:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

It is reasonable to question whether the last line in an obit (and only one obit as far as can be discovered) has a source that actually confirms the date of death, when the official statement released by the family (and reported on by local outlets) don't indicate that date. What is the harm in waiting for a confirmed reporting of the date? --ZimZalaBim ^talk 22:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Because The Guardian is a verifiable source? Why is their stating the DOD disqualified in favor of "waiting for a confirmed reporting"? This has always been their format, and as demonstrated they do not introduce a DOD without reason. If it was unknown they state as such. Rusted AutoParts 22:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree that The Guardian is a reliable source, but it's also noteworthy that no other sources are listing a death date yet. The "recently died" part of

WP:BLP applies here; Wikipedia must get the article right (emphasis is part of the original). It doesn't harm the article if we don't have an exact date at the moment nearly as much as it does if we're wrong about that date. We don't need to be first, we need to be right. Once a couple reliable sources are reporting the date, we can update it. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits}

) 22:46, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 23:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

second article from The Guardian unambiguously stating 26th as DOD. NME had also published their articles unambiguously stating 26th. Rusted AutoParts 08:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree with @Rusted AutoParts:, plenty of reliable sources confirming 26 July was the date of death. In addition to the NME and 2x Guardian articles above, The Times makes four with "Sinéad O’Connor, musician, was born on December 8, 1966. She died of undisclosed causes on July 26, 2023, aged 56". The Times are very specific about death dates and they will use "death announced on XXX" if they're uncertain. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I think we have to run with the 26th (as has been edited back in), given the sources - but keeping in mind that we have a day of finding and a time of pronouncement, but there is no definitive timing of the actual event pending medical input, so this may alter. There was reason to be careful and respectful about this point. SeoR (talk) 12:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it makes sense to include now, as it's being reported in reliable sources that she died on July 26, see also BBC ([13]), Police say she was found "unresponsive" and "pronounced dead at the scene" at 11:18 BST and her family had been notified. It might be possible that an autopsy changes that but at this point we are matching reliable sources and not just matching the date of announcement. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 14:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

De date of death is still unknown. The individual journalists who wrote that she died on 26 July didn't do a properly fact-check. The police report is clear. They were called in, so probably not a doctor or ambulance. So she was already dead. The police reported that the investigation will take weeks (here). The coronor's office mentions the same (here). We can only write that she was found dead on 26 July. And we will have to wait for more news from the coronor or police. Happytravels (talk) 07:16, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The individual journalists who wrote that she died on 26 July didn't do a properly fact-check is a claim requiring at least some source of its own, seeing as The Guardian and The Times are both

WP:V issue here anymore. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits}

) 20:59, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

And [14] is that source, for anyone coming to this discussion late. Which seems enough to say again that at the moment, sources do not agree on a death date and we should not include one. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 03:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

A question so I can learn: Why was her death not simply stated as 'found dead on July 26' and left alone? When the official announcement of the actual date was made then do an edit to reflect that announcement. Is this a clear policy issue? It seems a whole lot of concern was misspent. I'm am not an expert, but in my years of editing here I was always under the impression that articles could be edited to reflect the truth about a subject when known. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. O'Connor's passing should be noted with current information and then the actual date clarified when it has been made official. THX1136 (talk) 16:00, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Because at the time there had been no specific stipulations from the coroner that there was room for uncertainty about when she died, it was just reported as her being discovered unresponsive and then pronounced dead. Reliable secondary sources attributed the DOD as being the 26th without ambiguity, and couple with what I said about there being no prior stipulations of doubt, that is why. The coroner has since reported cause and date are still unknown. Rusted AutoParts 23:05, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

No dead body's should be left alone. There should be investigations on unknown causes of death. Over5help550 (talk) 16:32, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Or, in other words, Rusted AutoParts was wrong to simply accept the first statement of a "Reliable Source", even though other editors had proposed awaiting actual proper clarification in a publication, rather than accepting mere assertion. Still - it's a learning experience? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, no. I do not have a

crystal ball in my possession, I can’t predict whether or not a coroner will make a specific clarification as to whether there’s doubt about a death date or a death cause. Sometimes that happens sometimes that doesn’t, we just have what is presented with the sources. Sources say this was the date of death? Alright we mark that. New details emerge suggesting that’s not the case, alright mark that. The sources should do better due diligence, but I will also not be making it a habit to go “oh, they’re saying this, but can we truly know that?” Rusted AutoParts

07:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Nobody is expecting you to doubt everything, obviously, but sometimes a little dash of healthy skepticism, or "let's wait and see" is better than "I read it on the internet so it must be true." If a source is reporting "X said she had died on...", that's one thing. A news outlet just asserting a date without any attribution? Time to wait, maybe. There is no deadline. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It was right to be cautious; such dates are usually clear but this case was an exception. It just meant cautious wording. It may now be time to conclude, pending any surprise input. The autopsy was completed, the body released, and the family proceeded with the funeral. And they ordered the gravestone, with a permanently carved date - and this has been reported. So now the 26 July looks firm… SeoR (talk) 10:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Further agreed that 1) caution was correct and 2) we should have the date as 26 July now. As Vaticidalprophet noted in the BLPN discussion, We certainly use "best known" dates of death, very often. Most subjects are not internationally famous, and the best source you ever get on when they died is when they were "found dead".

The messiness here is because this reporting went through several phases, and in each the right thing to do was subtly different:

1. First, no reporting listed a death date. At this time, the correct thing was to not include any specific date. MIDI, who started this discussion,
   has a good essay on this
   . Here, most of the conflict came from editors confusing date of reporting with a date of death.
2. Second, one obituary (the Guardian one, [15]) had a death date of 26 July listed. It was reasonable to treat this as a reliable source, and similarly reasonable to be concerned that no other sources were reporting a date of death. That's where most of the talk page back and forth here happened. IMHO once concerns were expressed about the accuracy, the correct thing to do would be to not include any specific date. The "recently died" part of BLP certainly applied at this point, and as many editors have noted, Wikipedia's principles emphasize accuracy, not speed of reporting.
3. Third, multiple reports stated O'Connor was declared dead on 26 July (e.g [16]). At this point we had a legal date of death stated in multiple reliable sources. A medical time of death was still not definitively known, which some editors expressed concern over. It's iffy whether or not that concern was substantial enough to override including a known legal date of death, as medical times of death are often unknown. Personally, I feel that including the date of death in the article at this phase was appropriate.
4. Fourth, a report from the Irish Independent stated that the date of death was still unknown ([17]). At this point we again had conflicting reporting, concerns were raised, and the date was removed from the article again. I think this is where the right thing to do is murkiest. Options include leaving the date alone, adding a footnote that the medical date is still unknown, using circa (which ultimately is what was done), or completely removing the date.
5. Fifth and currently, no further reporting has suggested any other date of death, reporting continues to use the 26 July date of death, and that date has been used on her headstone. At this point, there is no reason to remain cautious; 26 July is the broadly accepted date of death.

Note that the right thing to do was never to edit war over the inclusion of the date. In the first phase (and only the first phase), removing the date may have been 3RR exempt (

Sinead did pass away on July 26. Her death date is displayed on her grave stone.

https://extra.ie/2023/08/10/news/irish-news/sinead-oconnor-final-resting-place 78.77.214.214 (talk) 15:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

1987 Portrait

Should we pay respect to O'Conner by using her 1987 portait or are we going to keep it as the 2014 picture? WiinterU (talk) 19:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

We don't choose images based on paying respect; an image should be chosen on its encyclopaedic merit. There is a discussion above which (although it seems to have gone a bit stale) you're welcome to add your opinion to. MIDI (talk) 20:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand that the discussion has now been closed, but since she passed while holding the position that she did not want her hair shown publicly because of her religious beliefs, would it not make sense to have the picture representing her one that covers her hair? Using an image of her with her hair could be seen as something offensive due to it going directly against her privacy. FactchecktruthME (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Religious Observance For Shuhada

Shuhada was a practicing Muslim woman who in recent years covered her hair as a sign of her faith. While she wore it when she wanted and whatnot, it's still an important part of who she is and I'm asking for the picture to be changed to something more respectful for her where her hair and bare skin are covered such as the picture used by the NYT [18] There should also be a note closer to the beginning and not the personal life section where her name that she chose after converting, Shuhada Sadaqat, is listed as that was the name she was known as before her death though she still responded to Sinead. All I'm asking for is an observation and respectful following of her beliefs for her wikipedia page especially since she's since passed and cannot ask for changes herself. Isiah9903 (talk) 17:50, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@Isiah9903 First, regarding the name. It is mentioned in the introduction section and listed in bold. It's arguable that it should be mentioned in the first sentence, but since she continued to perform under her birth name, the current approach is not unreasonable.

Second, re …especially since she's since passed and cannot ask for changes herself. Changes to articles are based on Wikipedia policy and not the requests of subjects. There is a policy-based reason to mention her name in the intro, and it is. There are also policy-based reasons that limit our choice of images.

As for the image. The current image is a free image, so any replacement image would also need to be under a free license. That is the first consideration: is an image of her with her hair covered available under a free license? The second consideration is, what image is most representative of her? Given that her hair was arguably an identifying characteristic of her, an image with her hair exposed is appropriate to accurately represent her for encyclopedia purpose. As to …observation and respectful following of her beliefs…, we do not delete articles on indigenous Australians just because they pass away, even though that is disrespectful for both mentioning their names and, where they articles have images, showing their pictures. Our purpose as an encyclopedia sometimes goes against being respectful of subjects' beliefs (not to mention readers' beliefs, which there is no way to practically respect all of at once). —C.Fred (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2023

This edit request to Sinéad O'Connor has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Death: According to the Independent UK, on 27 July 2023, singer Morrissey — despite showing little support for Sinéad O’Connor when she was alive — issued a withering statement to some stars and members of the press who commemorated her. ^[1]

Death: Writer Helen Brown remembered O'Connor as a figure who walked alone, “outwardly fearless although often fearful”. “So she was messy. Confused. But I don’t think she was capable of telling a lie,” Brown wrote. “In between the mess was an extraordinary, smart, but damaged human searching fiercely for a truth to cling to. Not to mention the many great records she made along the way.” ^[2]

On Madonna: In an interview with Spin magazine in 1991, O’Connor directly referenced Madonna and called her out for allegedly making unkind comments about her appearance while being a promoter of women’s rights. “Madonna is probably the hugest role model for women in America,” O’Connor noted. “There’s a woman who people look up to as being a woman who campaigns for women’s rights. A woman who, in an abusive way toward me, said that I look like I had a run-in with a lawnmower and that I was about as sexy as a Venetian blind. Now there’s the woman that America looks up to as being a campaigner for women, slagging off another woman for not being sexy.” ^[3]

On Miley Cyrus who, on social media, mocked people with reported mental health issues: “Miley, I have no interest whatsoever in meeting you,” O’Connor wrote in a third open letter to singer Miley Cyrus posted on 4 October 2013. “You had plenty of time yesterday to abuse Amanda Bynes an entirely innocent party and myself who also did nothing to deserve your abuse, along with every other sufferer of mental health problems and every person who suffered abuse at the hands of priests.” ^[4]

Politics: In June of 2021, O'Connor launched a petition calling for the arrest of her far-right ex-partner John Waters and far-right conspiracy theorist Gemma O'Doherty "for incitement to racial discrimination," after they questioned Leo Varadkar's right to serve as Tanáiste on the basis that "he is not Irish". (Varadkar was born in Dublin's Rotunda Hospital to an Irish mother and an Indian father.) After five days, the petition had already received more than 1,400 signatures. ^[5]

Garbage lead vocalist Shirley Manson on Sinéad O'Connor: "The problem is, our society is so primitive and so cruel — especially the entertainment industry. There’s a lust for shaming because it creates scandal, and scandal sells. That’s, I think, why the world enjoys destroying people: They make money from it. There is still very little interest in adulating women. The world is very quick to fetishize and idolize the male rock star, but won’t do it with the female rock star who has agency. They’re happy to promote the sexy kittens who wear nice clothes, smile a lot, and look fuckable, but who don’t really write and have very little to say. But they’re not comfortable with the idea of someone like Sinéad O’Connor — who was confident enough in her own intellect and her beliefs and her moral compass to stand up and protest against what she saw as flagrant human rights abuses around the world. They hated her for it. They hated that she wasn’t looking to be told what to say. They hated that she wasn’t looking for approval. They loathed that she shaved her head and basically put her finger up to the culture in which we all exist. And they made her pay for that. They punished her over and over and over again. No punishment was ever enough." ^[6]

Valencabal (talk) 04:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC) Valencabal (talk) 04:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

References

1. ^ https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/sinead-o-connor-madonna-feud-b2383538.html
2. ^ https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/sinead-o-connor-madonna-feud-b2383538.html
3. ^ https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/sinead-o-connor-madonna-feud-b2383538.html
4. ^ https://people.com/celebrity/miley-cyrus-sinead-oconnor-twitter-fight-continues/
5. ^ https://www.irishcentral.com/news/sinead-oconnor-petition-gemma-odoherty-john-waters
6. ^ https://www.talkhouse.com/sinead-oconnor-was-right-about-everything/

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a

"change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk

) 17:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

natural causes

She died of natural causes.[1] 216.164.254.3 (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

References

1. ^ https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/09/entertainment/sinead-oconnor-cause-of-death-intl/index.html

1987 Photo Revert

I'm confused about the 1987 image being reverted and I will explain why: The general reason given for the revert is "no consensus" and to maintain the status quo, but there is a Wikipedia article called "Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus." Here's a quoted summary of the page: "This page in a nutshell: If the only thing you have to say about a Wikipedia edit is that it lacks consensus, it's best to not revert it." Misterspaceman (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Misterspaceman, the conclusion/consensus of Talk:Sinéad O'Connor/Archive 3#RfC: New infobox image? was to maintain the existing photo. Helper201 (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2024 (UTC)