Talk:Sportsman's Park

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Baseball: Old-time Base Ball / Cardinals Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Baseball, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of baseball on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BaseballWikipedia:WikiProject BaseballTemplate:WikiProject BaseballBaseball articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Old-time Base Ball task force (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject St. Louis Cardinals (assessed as Top-importance). College football Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject College football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of college football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.College footballWikipedia:WikiProject College footballTemplate:WikiProject College footballcollege football articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Missouri Low‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Missouri, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Missouri. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.MissouriWikipedia:WikiProject MissouriTemplate:WikiProject MissouriMissouri articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. St. Louis Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject St. Louis (Sports), a project to build and improve articles related to St. Louis and the surrounding metropolitan area. We invite you to join the project and contribute to the discussion.St. LouisWikipedia:WikiProject St. LouisTemplate:WikiProject St. LouisSt. Louis articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

the article makes it sound as if the same stadium was used from 1880 to 1966, when in fact there are at least 2 and probably 3 stadiums on the site. The 1880 stadium (1) was used by the Cardinals (Browns in the 19th century). In 1902 a new wood stadium (2) was built by the AL Browns then in 1909 a steel stadium (3?) was built by the Browns Smith03 02:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The various incarnations of the structure sat on the same site and generally used the same name, so many sources tend to treat them as one.

Wahkeenah 06:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

I attend several games at this park, located in south St. Louis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C64:507F:BB0A:9D65:C75E:A293:9049 (talk) 01:46, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IP address asserts Boston a smaller market during 1902-1952. Recommend looking at two factors: (1) Populations of each city for 1900, 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950; and (2) high watermarks of combined attendance. Arguably original research. But it would give us an idea of whether either statement might have the ring of truth to it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The dimensions 1926 and after are well-known and are visible in photographs. 310 to right, not 320. 351 to left, not 355. 426 and 422 to the center field corners, and not only not 430 between them (no marker) but mathematically impossible anyway. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This illustration [1] matches the info from the Sporting News baseball guides of the 1950s and early 1960s. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As does this: [2] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The source of the photo used for the article has some other photos. For example, this one of right field, which confirms 310: [3] Or centerfield, showing 425 and 422 (no 430): [4] This one shows that 358 in near-left-center: [5] This one shows the 379: [6] This one shows LF 351, not 355: [7] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This photo shows the locations of the outfield signs as they were during the 1946 World Series. You can't read the signs themselves, but it shows their locations on the walls, particularly the over-doing it in the centerfield area where they had four signs: 426-425-422-422. [8] There is a nice closeup of the centerfield area on a page in the 1951 Lamont Buchanan book, The World Series and Highlights of Baseball, which I would be happy to upload except the fair use hounds would be all over me for it. Anyway, all photographic evidence is that it was a straight segment whose farthest marked point was 426, so the reported 430 was fanciful. In fact, the early numbers of 355-430-320 were either estimates or suggest the diamond was relocated. The trouble with Lowrey's book (and those who copied from it, like the ballparks websites) is that he drew from multiple, contradictory sources and published what he found. The FINAL figure in each case makes the most sense to use. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an illustration from one of the versions of Take Me Out to the Ballpark by Sporting News [9] which is a little hard to read but it shows most of the outfield signs. TSN was a St. Louis publication, so they were in good position to know the facts. This is another one I could easily upload but again would run into trouble with the fair use watchers. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That cartoon was originally drawn by a guy named Gene Mack and was originally published ca. 1946. This site has a much better look at an earlier version of it [10] which shows many of the outfield signs as they were in the 1940s, and also includes a TSN article from 1937 (originally one of a series from the Chicago Tribune), which is interesting because they had established 351 and 310, but were saying centerfield was 445, based on what is hard to say. Maybe it was 445. But the signs from the 1940s onward said 426-425-422-422. One thing the 1937 article doesn't say is that the covered and screened-in pavilion was the "colored section" of the ballpark seating, essentially confining black patrons to a large "cage". That segregation rule was eventually abolished. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made contact with Bernard Waxman, the owner of the color photo that appears in the infobox, and he has graciously given me permission to upload 3 cropped, full-sized photos that illustrate the various signs on the walls. I'll post them here for consideration after I get the uploading done, hopefully sometime soon. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And here they are: Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sportsmans Park Waxman p998 crop.JPG

File:Sportsmans Park Waxman P99994 crop.JPG

File:Sportsmans Park Waxman p93 crop.JPG

To get around potential fair-use problems, the copyright owner has uploaded them to his website: [11] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An image used in this article, File:Sportsman's Park 1946 World Series.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests September 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot -- talk) 13:48, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply ]