Talk:Stained glass in Liverpool Cathedral

	Stained glass in Liverpool Cathedral has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 10, 2014 Good article nominee Listed
	A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 14, 2014. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the stained glass in Liverpool Cathedral includes depictions of Grace Darling, J. S. Bach, and Christopher Columbus?

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• Which cathedral? It's not even linked. I'd go so far as to rename the article to make it quite clear - both cathedrals have notable glass.
• Categorisation seems lacking for Liverpool and its cathedral(s).
• Whitefriars Glass should be linked. It's a major brand name that's well known amongst glass collectors. James Powell and Sons
  is linked, but that's a name hardly known in comparison. That article doesn't make the history of the Whitefriars trademark quite as obvious as it might be: Is it exactly homologous to Powell? Has it been used as their trading name more at some times than at others (post-war it certainly has, but was that true beforehand?) Those are questions for that article, not this, but per COMMONNAME, it's Whitefriars that has the instant link-worthy recognition here, not Powell.
• Lady Chapel and Chapter House could use better explanation as to their linkable articles, their function and their location within the cathedral site. A map would be useful, if anyone can draw one - Liverpool Cathedral is a big place to navigate and is in some ways back-to-front as well.

Otherwise thanks for this article and I welcome any expansion here, or on other aspects of the cathedral. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for your comments. I struggled with the opening in both following the "rules" of WP and trying to make sense. I take your point about making it clear that the article refers to the Anglican cathedral. I did not want a big explanation in the lead (which is intended to to be a summary, anyway), and thought of adding an explanatory footnote, but that seemed to be too much out of the way, so I settled for a hatnote. I hope that works.
• I am pretty ignorant about stained glass and its manufacturers. In the (many) church articles I have written I have used Powell's rather than Whitefriars because that is the name mainly used by the authors of the Pevsner Guides. Looking at what I think is the official website, the names seem to be used synonymously (or alternately). And in the sections on the Lady Chapel and on the Ambulatory and Chapter House the source uses Powell's (not Whitefriars) on both occasions.
• Thanks for adding links. I do not feel that explaining the functions of the Lady Chapel and Chapter House would be appropriate in an article about stained glass. Sorry I do not have the skill to draw a diagram; it's a pity there is no plan on the article on the cathedral itself. And to try to give an idea of the location of the various parts of the cathedral without a plan would be horribly complicated, especially when the liturgical directions are different from the actual ones. At least I have been more logical in the article than the major source is; I have started at the liturgical east end and worked towards the west, while in the source they are mixed up, starting with the Central Space!

--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:13, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a collaborative project and the people at Commons graphics workshop have proven very capable and helpful in the past. If it's possible to acquire even a pencil sketch floorplan, then I'm sure someone there could turn it into something helpful.

This isn't an article on lady chapels, but I think it's useful (remembering that many readers will have no familiarity with Anglican worship) to explain that a chapter house isn't an area used for the main functions of worship, and this attitude change can influence aspects like its glazing. The lady chapel at Liverpool is itself interesting (this belongs in the main cathedral article) as I understand it to show something of a compromise between Liverpool's evangelical leanings of the time, vs the high church that was so visible in many other churches of the late Victorian period.

As to Powell / Whitefriars then I have a vague suspicion that Powell was the name used for their stained glass work, and that Whitefriars was their consumer range in later years. Certainly the consumer range (and its devoted collectors of hideous orange banjos) has more name recognition today and for that reason I'd like to see it linked, just to answer the question in reader's minds, "Is this the same Whitefriars who made granny's vase?". Andy Dingley (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Following the development of this article with interest. The hatnote approach is consistent with the usage on both the Liverpool Cathedral and Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral articles (and the talk page for the former has an extended discussion on the "correct" common name, q.v.), so that looks OK to me.
• I also know very little about glass, but I note that
  Whitefriars Glass redirects to the main article James Powell and Sons
  , so your linking would be consistent with that.
• The progression East to West makes sense. I have not found a suitable floor plan graphic, but have added a link to a simple floor plan (unfortunately a PDF) from the Cathedral website.

--Entablature (talk) 16:00, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the link to the floor plan to Ext links, whre I think it is more obvious, and added a commonscat link. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:36, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent article but maybe you could be a bit more precise about J. W. Brown as he seems to have been one of the main artists behind the original windows. I believe the person concerned is John William Brown (1842–1928), an interior designer from Newcastle on Tyne. See for example here. He is mentioned in other sources in connection with the stained glass windows in Liverpool Cathedral but unfortunately I cannot access British library sources from Luxembourg.--Ipigott (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all for your comments. Yes, it is this JWB, and I will prepare a stub (or more) in the next few days. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:59, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article John William Brown (artist) has been written and linked. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This review is

transcluded from Talk:Stained glass in Liverpool Cathedral/GA1

. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) 12:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

• "and it is intended that they should form an integrated scheme throughout the cathedral." - perhaps "with the intention of forming an integrated scheme throughout the cathedral" would read better for tense purposes.

• Agree.

• "They include scenes and characters from the Old and New Testaments, evangelists, church fathers, saints, and laymen, some famous, others more humble" -a little vague, can you at least mention a few examples perhaps of figures depicted?

• So many, it's impossible to choose. They are in the body of the article, and to include them here would be IMO unnecessary repetition.

History

• "the main lines on which the design of the window should be based and the extent to which is to be of clear glass or coloured" -perhaps attribute that quote.

• Ref expanded. Does this work?

Description

• "The designs were by J. W. Brown. " -here you might elaborate a little on his past work experience, nothing much, but just to improve flow and comprehension.

• The added expansion should deal with this.

• "the Woodward family, who were corn merchants between 1803 and 1915, " -were they based in Liverpool? If so perhaps add "local" before corn.

• Done.

• "The window" -tweak to "The east window" (even if in the title)

• Done.

• " J. S. Bach musician, Isaac Newton scientist, and Thomas Linacre physician" -should there be a "the" before professions here or the profession placed before the name?

• Professions placed first.

• " Each window shows the author of the gospel at the top with his symbol, and below are figures linked with the subject matter of the gospel. And each window" Not keen on the sentence beginning with "And" here, can you reword to avoid this? Perhaps ". Each window, known by its predominant colour, shows the author of the gospel at the top with his symbol. Below are figures linked with the subject matter of the gospel."

• Agree, Done.

• What is meant by " Journeys taken in faith"?

• Section expanded, with descriptions of the images in both rose windows included.

• " The Musicians' Window contains composers, performers, and conductors who have played a part in the development of Anglican church music. " -any examples?

• Wish I could add examples, but none given in this source, and I cannot find any elsewhere.

• Attribute "all creation united in peace"

• Section expanded. Does this work?

Is there nothing which can be said from a technical viewpoint, with an analysis of the artwork in the designs or an analysis of common themes, that sort of thing? I would have expected a section examining it from an artistic/creative aspect aside from the description.

• I should like to include an Appraisal section but can find nothing appropriate in the sources I have, or in an online search. My main source comes from a former member of the cathedral, so I have tried to make the article as neutral as possible.

♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:00, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Many thanks for a prompt review. Are my amendments adequate? --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 17:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it
   neutral
   ?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have

   fair use rationales

   :

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with

   suitable captions

   :

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Yes, looks fine I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]