Talk:Take a Daytrip

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The A in the middle is a capital A per news coverage like Rolling Stone, Billboard.com, i-D GQ and Forbes, and the subject's social media pages -Twitter and Instagram AND music sharing sites: Apple Music, Spotify, Youtube search AND the Grammy Award site. I tried moving, but looks like there is an already existing page

Oppose and speedy close. Per

MOS:TITLECAPS Wikipedia article titles do not capitalize definite and indefinite articles, even if sources tend to. WPscatter ^t/_c 00:37, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Oppose per

MOS:TITLECAPS. See the two prior RMs at Talk:Find a Grave. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• Support per
  MOS:TITLECAPS doesn't apply to people's names. 162 etc. (talk) 01:58, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

There is no difference in spelling between the two variants – only a difference in capitalization. See also

Talk:NEXT (Chinese band)#Requested move 11 October 2022. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:35, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

MOS:CAPS, so yes, this applies to the capitalization in question. 162 etc. (talk) 19:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

But this is not a personal name. And the full quoted sentence starts with "Use the style that dominates for that person in reliable sources" and the whole paragraph is about personal names. This is about a duo, not a person. And we don't always follow self-styling for people either when their self-styling is especially unusual. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned below, the trouble is that we are assuming that the A is an article, but this could be the letter A, as in Take A (of Daytrip). We can never tell for sure unless the persons that named it explains it somewhere. In that case, I think it is prudent to use the name the way it appears in majority of the sources (especially primary ones).

Sabih omar 21:23, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Unless we have some clear indication otherwise, I think we should assume the phrase is what it appears to be, i.e. that the word is an article. The other interpretation seems rather obscure, and if they meant it that way, they would probably say it somewhere. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:33, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I didn't even bother responding the first time because I find the notion that the "A" is not an article patently ridiculous, but here is a video where the duo themselves pronounce their name in a manner that can only imply it's an article. WPscatter ^t/_c 23:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was giving an example of how our "assumption" can mislead us, and for that reason, altering a proper name is problematic. But anyway, consensus is King, i am just presenting my viewpoint.

Sabih omar 23:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Comment

Sabih omar 04:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

@

MOS:TITLECAPS

that address indefinite and definite articles (a, an, the) in titles, and they state that they should not be capitalized.

The exception in

WP:CONSISTENT overall. WPscatter ^t/_c 04:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

We are assuming that the "A" here is an article, but this can very well be Take A (in the sense of beginning, like Kid A) of Daytrip (the duo uses simply Daytrip to refer to themselves in production tags). That is the danger of altering a name given to an entity or group.

By the way I have found a few articles that capitalize the article:

Sabih omar 05:43, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Thank you for finding those. How did you find them? AFAICT, none of those are the result of consensus discussions. Two of them are simply remaining at the titles chosen by the person who created the articles. The remaining one, "John The Blind", was from a recent undiscussed move, which I have reverted. IIUC, the term would ordinarily refer to John of Bohemia, and John the Blind has redirected to that article since it was created in 2008. And AFAICT, none of the independent reliable sources that are cited in the article refer to that performer as "John [T/t]he Blind" – only the Atlantic Records company promotional material does. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. We do not capitalize a/an except at the beginning of the article title (or beginning of a sentence, etc.). This is such a basic matter of English writing that we've never felt the need to have an MoS shortcut for it.
  MOS:TM)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  I respect the consensus and guidelines but personally disagree that this is a basic matter of English writing. We cannot define parts of speech in a “name”. All names should be considered proper nouns and written according to its common usage, especially when supported by sources. Interestingly, hyphenated titles appear to evade the rule:

  Sabih omar 15:09, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Thank you for finding those. How did you find them? One of them had an RM discussion, but that was in 2009, so relatively long ago in Wikipedia terms. The other two don't seem to be the result of consensus dicsussions. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Re: How did you find them? - Just searched for common phrases.

  Sabih omar 20:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]