Talk:Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War

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Timeline?

What do you think about including a timeline for territorial changes? I think it would be very handy for this page and the map templates. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I second this Space772 (talk) 00:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ivanivske

Ivanivske in is contested. Look at DeepState maps. Ivanivske in Bakhmut, Donetsk. 108.39.196.77 (talk) 02:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chasiv Yar strong enemy pressure

Maybe it should be added due to Russian advance nearby in the last few days. Berobalkan (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone? Berobalkan (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Physeters, @Nurg? Anyone? Berobalkan (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Russia is getting pretty close, so it might make sense to add the strong enemy pressure symbol. Physeters✉ 16:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I've already added the pressure marker to the map and also considered it "contested" here, since 4 April is an important date. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't say that it's contested. Although, I don't know what is the protocol on this site. Berobalkan (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, "contested" is a bit of a loose definition here, but it's the closest option to reality we got. In the "more info" column I also tend to simplify the events for consistency. In the map itself, there are more drawing options.
ping me] 23:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Not contested. The ISW ref given says Russians "advanced up to the eastern outskirts", not that they entered the settlement. Nurg (talk) 03:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. Physeters✉ 04:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of "outskirts" has always been contentious (for me, since the Ukrainian battle for Robotyne). Looking at their map is also very important and it clearly showed that Russia had advanced to the first few buildings within official city boundaries. I only include quotes in my references to aid readers to know more or less what the ref is about, i.e. if it's about geolocated evidence or claims, on what date and in what region. The ISW itself told readers a while back that it would be giving less detail to territorial changes and encouraged avid readers to check their linked references while keeping in mind the broad conclusions that the ISW wrote. Therefore, whatever I quote is not the whole picture especially since I tend to get the shortest quote possible to not bloat the references section. If this practice is misleading, then I may stop it altogether.
Regarding considering it "contested" or not is a semantic discussion. I, personally, will never bother conveying such extra detail (i.e. "they pressured this area" or "they advanced up to these buildings then retreated..."), but you guys are welcome to do so in the extra info column, especially since this is an important city battle ;). I'm mostly focused on completeness and consistency.
ping me] 18:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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I follow the definition of "contested" at Module:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map#Contested icon. Nurg (talk) 23:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's reasonable and consistent. Will adopt it in this page too from now on. Thanks 👍.
ping me] 01:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Synkivka

Might not be contested anymore because of Ukrainain counterattack in the north of the settlement. Berobalkan (talk) 14:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Physeters, @Nurg, anyone? Berobalkan (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When did the counterattack take place?. The ISW was still showing Russia in control of northern Synkivka yesterday. Physeters✉ 16:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Took place on 1 April. Berobalkan (talk) 05:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which source are you considering? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem likely/natural that Ukraine retook it, but I still need a good source.
ping me] 18:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Btw, I'm not checking my watchlist anymore (too many headaches). I was only editing the list page and forgot to check this talk page. So I would recommend pinging if you want to get my attention. ;) Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Krasnohorivka

Why two simbols? One for contested and one for UA control? Berobalkan (talk) 12:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes,
ping me] 20:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Yes, I think it is ok, if we want fine-grained info on the map. Nurg (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Heorhiivka & Bilohorivka

According to yesterday's ISW update, Russian forces have yet to enter Heorhiivka, and are within the town limits of Bilohorivka in Luhansk Oblast. Heorhiivka is currently marked as contested, but Bilohorivka is not. Why is this? Is there a different source that says Heorhiivka is contested and Bilohorivka is in full Ukrainian control? Physeters✉ 22:44, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a link and quote for the ISW update that says Russian forces are within the town limits of Bilohorivka. Nurg (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though the ISW updated their map to show the advance, never directly addressed, which is probably why we all missed it. Their first map that showed Russia within Bilohorivka was published on February 29, and the current map still has it. https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375 Physeters✉ 06:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maps are not considered reliable enough, so we really need an explicit mention in text from ISW or other reliable source. Nurg (talk) 08:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since when was the ISW's map not considered a reliable source? I've been here for over two years, and their map had always been considered just as reliable as their reports. Was there a debate about this that I missed? Also, if a quote is now required, then the quote citing Heorhiivka as contested is to vague to be used. It just says that Russia "advanced on the eastern outskirts of Heorhiivka". Physeters✉ 17:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maps and reports each have their own limitations of reliability. Often a report uses words that are too vague, i.e. sometimes "outskirts" means just outside the settlement edge, sometimes it means a few buildings or blocks into the settlement. "Entered" doesn't always mean the captured territory is still held (it could have been a raid). Maps also have their problems. Sometimes it's just wrong because the ISW doesn't have a grayzone or warzone color, i.e. it could mark a region blue when it's red and vice versa. This happened a few times in Luhansk Oblast after the Kharkiv counteroffensive. The maximum Ukrainian extent remained unknown for a very long time, but ISW was forced to use either blue or red and made mistakes along the way which were silently patched in the maps but never explained in the reports. Iirc, Orlianka, Dibrova and Ploshchanka suffered from this. There was also a big phantom miscoloring near Tavilzhanka in early 2023 that was never explained in reports. Pretty sure Kovalivka and Karmazynivka also didn't show up in reports but were tampered in the maps. Therefore we should always look at both sources with equal weight: a citation here should be backed by both.
Regarding Heorhiivka, it is already contested because Russia controls the NE portion of it (across the reservoir). Gmaps makes this clearer, but this can also be checked in the ISW map because that NE portion is disconnected from NW Marinka, and we know the boundaries of Marinka well. Regarding Bilohorivka, I just felt that that small red control on it was too minor. The Russian pressure is just too low there and this 'ify' situation has been going on for months. It might very well just have been a raid. Don't feel like constantly changing the status between contested and pressured until we have a more concerted Russian push. Russian milbloggers also don't give it much importance and I feel like "weak pressure" describes the situation better, even if the Russians maybe continually hold positions within the village boundaries.
ping me] 19:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Is Google Maps considered a reliable source for determining the boundaries/town limits of settlements in Ukraine? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue "yes", especially in conjunction with other maps, i.e. the ISW map. But more important than wondering whether to classify GMaps as reliable or not in Ukraine is to verify if there is agreement between sources. The ISW and Google maps really seem to agree on Heorhiivka.
ping me] 00:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Thanks for the big explanation. I actually remember that whole thing with Tavilzhanka back in December '22. I thought they said they had geolocated footage from within the town, though I may be wrong. Also, I had not noticed the disconnected part of Heorhiivka; my apologies! Physeters✉ 01:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
;)
ping me] 05:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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In reply to Physeters re maps as sources for this map, you may have overlooked the long-standing statement at the head of this page, "Copying from maps is strictly prohibited", which seems clear and is quite strongly worded. (It's not set in stone, of course, and could be changed by consensus.) Nurg (talk) 22:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But none of the three cases explained under that topic apply to ISW. Pretty sure there was no mapping think tank during the Syrian Civil War, therefore that statement should probably not be taken at face value.
ping me] 00:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
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