Talk:Transgender/Archive 11

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research on transsexualism section?

there are multiple issues with this section. Firstly, transsexualism is generally an outdated term not used within the trans community to refer to itself, and has medicalising undertones.

secondly, citing blanchard? blanchards theories are near universally viewed as inaccurate by the trans community, and generally aren't mainstream. to put him in a prominent position and list those who do and don't disagree with him as if they were equal sides gives him too much legitimacy and relevance, where honestly i dont think he should be in this article at all.

thirdly, the mortality rate paragraph. there is no clarificiation as to what causes this higher mortality rate, it merely mentions that they studied populations on hormone replacement therapy, but doesnt clarify if the hormone replacement therapy is what contributes to the higher mortality rate. If im going to be a bit conspiratorial, it seems like someone has inserted this section so people will read it, and then associate HRT with higher mortality, because most people won't see that only the correlation has been noted here, and won't visit the link which explicitly says this : The cause-specific mortality risk because of lung cancer, cardiovascular disease, HIV-related disease, and suicide gives no indication to a specific effect of hormone treatment.

I think the last section really needs further clarificaiton, and more citations to other sources, because otherwise it just comes off as fearmongering, and may be unnecessarily distressing to trans individuals who read it, who might think that going on hrt is going to be bad for their long term health, where the actual citation claims no direct correlation between the two. Schizotypewriter (talk) 16:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

That's true, transsexualism is the term used in the DSM-III, which was replaced by gender identity disorder (GID) in DSM-IV, and gender dysphoria (GD) in the DSM-5. The use of the term transsexualism should in and of itself be considered a red flag at this point that the material is likely outdated or fringe science.
For Blanchard's theories, we should follow
WP:FRINGE. Hist9600 (talk
) 16:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies-17

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 February 2023 and 19 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): LuciBee123 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Sqygkiwi (talk) 18:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The wording in this line is a bit off

i feel that the linethroughout history the gay, lesbian, and bisexual (LGBT) subculture was often the only place where gender-variant people were socially accepted should not have the (LGBT) as it is obvius that the T part of the acronym whould be acpting of gender varuaus and the section is on how non-trans queer people view trans people thus inclding an acronym that has trans popel in it seems off Roma enjoyer (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I'm going to remove the acronym and also pluralise it as there was only a coherent gay subculture in more recent times. Before that it was much more fragmented. I'm still not a great fan of this section but this seems like a small improvement. DanielRigal (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2023

Change

""" The Catholic Church has been involved in the outreach to LGBT community for several years and continues doing so through Franciscan urban outreach centers, for example, the Open Hearts outreach in Hartford, Connecticut.[173] The Vatican holds that transgender people cannot become godparents and compares transitioning to self-harm.[174]

The Church of England passed a motion at the 2017 General Synod, which would ensure Anglican churches accepted transgender people, even suggesting on their website that transgender people could be gifted a Bible with their new name inscribed to support them.[175]

"""

to

"""

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Source is not reachable and is probably primary. – Callmemirela 🍁 01:02, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Here is the source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, 369. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1B.HTM HumanaeVitae (talk) 01:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. -Lemonaka‎ 04:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 23:49, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Catholicism

The Catholic Church's official teaching is that "'Being man' or 'being woman' is a reality which is good and willed by God."[173] In other words, the Church does not support transgender ideology. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church maintains all transgender individuals have human dignity. The outspoken disagreement with transgender ideology is seen as an act of love towards transgender individuals because the Church seeks to counsel them as a spiritual work of mercy. According to the Church, gender transitioning is a form of self-harm and that living as one's preferred gender is an act of public disagreement with Church teaching. Due to such, transgender individuals cannot become godparents. The Catholic Church has been involved in the outreach to LGBT community for several years and continues doing so through Franciscan urban outreach centers, for example, the Open Hearts outreach in Hartford, Connecticut.[174]

Anglicanism

The Church of England passed a motion at the 2017 General Synod, which would ensure Anglican churches accepted transgender people, even suggesting on their website that transgender people could be gifted a Bible with their new name inscribed to support them.[176]


"""


[173] Catechism of the Catholic Church, 369. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1B.HTM


I am suggesting this edit because 1) the former article did not have bold text for each religion, so I added bold text to make the article more readable and distinct, and 2) the section on Catholicism simply compared transitioning to self-harm in an unclear way and used a secondary source instead of a primary source. I have added two new primary sources and removes the secondary source, since the conclusions reached from it necessarily follow from the primary sources, i.e. the Catechism of the Catholic Church and an official Papal Encyclical titled, Laudato Si'. HumanaeVitae (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: First, per
undue weight to the Catholic Church's position in the context of this article, which is a broader view on transgender people. Indeed, that section already links to Transgender people and religion, and there is a much more sustained discussion of the Catholic Church's views here. voorts (talk/contributions
) 23:52, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
I see; I still think the current state of the article is lacking. Simply stating that 'gender transitioning is comparable to self-harm and transgenders cannot be godparents' is insufficient. It should state clearly the Church's teaching or not state it at all HumanaeVitae (talk) 00:11, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
I have shortened my edit to not place undue weight on it. I will reactivate the request. I would like to expand the article further for short explanations for more religions, but do not have the time. HumanaeVitae (talk) 00:14, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: Your proposed edit still relies on primary sources. Please review
WP:NOR. voorts (talk/contributions
) 00:17, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
I am using a reliable source and no original research. The Catechism source is a reliable source of what the Catholic Church teaches since it is published by the Catholic Church. I see I left my second source up still; I did not mean to keep it. I have removed it. HumanaeVitae (talk) 00:21, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
I fixed the issue and reactivated the request. HumanaeVitae (talk) 00:21, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
When the catholic church says something about the catholic church that's reliable but still a primary source (see
WP:PRIMARY). It would be much better to find a secondary source that describes the catholic church's position without being affiliated with it. For example, a book or academic article that reviews and compares the views of different christian denominations or religions on the subject. The author(s) of this text would quote the church's position statement(s) but also interpret and contextualize it. To find such a text you could try and see who is quoting/citing/discussing the catechism, e.g., through searching for "catechism 369" on Google Scholar.--TempusTacet (talk
) 07:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
The Catechism is not Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition; it is a summary of such. 2600:4040:A194:7000:3428:D633:B4DC:D53D (talk) 23:49, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

LGBT Community - Purpose of Section?

Noticed the "LGBT Community" section in this article, consisting of 1 paragraph and doesn't seem to have enough significance for its own section. Is there another reason for this section? PerryPerryD Talk To Me 18:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I imagine it could be expanded with discussion of trans community spaces, and the history of that. It just needs some enterprising fellow to do the work :P CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 18:59, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
I think that section is intended to explain how the transgender community fits within the wider LGBT community. It doesn't do a great job of that and it could definitely be improved. DanielRigal (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
Agree with Daniel. Further, I think the section should be replaced by a section entitled, #Transgender community. In the same way that there is a standalone article entitled, "
Transgender community, which is unquestionably a notable topic, but we don't. (That blue link simply redirects back here.) So, the way to go, imho, is to create that article first, then once it's done, summarize it down to a couple of paragraphs, and include that summary here as a here, as a section in WP:Summary style, with a {{Main}} link to the new article. In the meantime, I think the current section may be trying to serve that purpose, but whether it is or isn't, it isn't well done (or at least, isn't in the right venue) and I can see an argument for just removing it. As the redirect is still valid, if you want to go this route, I'd start by creating Draft:Transgender community, and then pinging a few editors from the Talk page, if you want any assistance. Cheers, Mathglot (talk
) 04:28, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Creating a FAQ

The topic of a FAQ for this page came up in the

contentious topics
.

There are over five hundred talk pages that have a FAQ; here are the first one hundred of them. Here is a handful of articles on contentious topics that have a FAQ:

I haven't examined each one of these, so this isn't necessarily an endorsement, but it does show how FAQs have been developed for some other topics which may be contentious as well. See Template:FAQ for further info. Mathglot (talk) 20:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I will start going through those and coming up with questions. I created a subpage for Talk:Transgender/FAQ for the discussion, created a strawman for discussion, and threw a few questions on it to start the discussion. Feel free to undo any or all of that if there's a better methodology. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 22:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for creating that. As a matter of style and participation, the subpage should contain your skeleton FAQ on its own, and the discussion should be here in this section. Nobody will go there to comment. (I was in the middle of creating one, too, but it was empty, just the placeholders for Q & A, so let's just go with your version.) Mathglot (talk) 05:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm totally new to the world of FAQs on Wikipedia, so I appreciate the guidance. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Merger proposal

CLOSED
Closed:No Merge for now: Apparently, this is redundant to a discussion that has been recently closed (although I don't see it here), therefore participants are urged to enact the results of that discussion per
wp:FORUM. ThanX, GenQuest "scribble"
14:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formal request has been received to merge: Transsexual into Transgender; dated: July 2023 Proposer's Rationale: It is proposed these two terms be merged, with the argument that the term transexual is outdated, inaccurate, and offensive., and furthermore, that the Transsexual page should be a subsection of the Transgender page. Discuss here. GenQuest "scribble"
17:55, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
We just finished this discussion nine days ago. Apparently, it is within policy to just keep this churn going. In the following, I am using TG and TS to refer to the articles, not to people.
  • Strong Oppose just like last time. Bullet summary:
  1. TS and TG are distinct terms in the overwhelming majority of
    WP:RSs
    .
  2. Yes, many of those sources are older than last week. The terms might eventually be considered as identical (in the preponderance of sources), but that requires
    WP:CRYSTAL
  3. There is just no good reason for this change. Neither article is misleading or harmful.
  4. There is even less reason to change it right now. We are supposed to follow sources, not lead them. Leave this alone for enough time for the English language to settle, and for the source to catch up. If you are so unshakably confident that your POV will prevail, you won't have a problem waiting until it does to make the change.
Please don't do this. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 23:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in Actually this request was meant for the previous discussion but it was in the wrong category...so it is coming up now. Weird. If re-open this discussion in the future, but will be considering all views on this, before proposing a merger. Historyday01 (talk) 04:06, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
My sincere apologies for doubting the
US/UK-centric bias that could also be eliminated with a little time for the world to catch up with those cultures' developing sensitivities. Cheers, Last1in (talk
) 10:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Makes sense. I'll definitely wait a bit for it to be relisted. I've noted on various places that I'd like the discussion closed, but I'm not sure when GenQuest will do so. Historyday01 (talk) 12:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose Merge, based on the reason for nomination, actually. Sorry to be picky about it, but the reason being "outdated, inaccurate, and offensive" does not seem to be encyclopedia-worthy. Many of the sources given in the previous discussion do direct to not use transsexual, unless specifically requested to; how the term is often offensive and is tied to past persecution, one source says the transgender community 'rejected' the term. Transsexual predates transgender in any sort of popular useage; this should be enough to keep the Transsexual article. I would not be against that article reflecting more the fact that it is outdated and offensive, but if that's going to be a good enough reason to merge them and get rid of the Transsexual article, then the same reasoning might need to be applied to many of the linked articles on the list of ethnic slurs. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of those are outdated and offensive terms, too. King keudo (talk) 02:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
    @King keudo Ok. As the nominator who is trying to end this faulty restart of the merger, I only had a short description because I was trying to get more eyes on the discussion, and I was summarising what the OP at that time said. I posted the merger request back in June, but it was apparently in the wrong category so it is coming up now. Just trying to be clear here. One day I may re-open this, but will have to look carefully at the last discussion before doing so. Historyday01 (talk) 04:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
    100% believe this was in good faith, and there are plenty of good reasons to be sure we treat the community - and the terms - properly. I think RoxySaunders has a good idea down below. King keudo (talk) 12:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
    Of course, it was in good faith and I agree that the community and terms should be treated properly. Historyday01 (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
@GenQuest As the person who made this request, can I please withdrawal it? Thanks. I would like this discussion closed. Historyday01 (talk) 03:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Partial merge, at most. There is enough content specific to this topic (and enough sources discussing it as its own concept) to warrant a standalone article. The mess we're in now is that much of the body just consists of excerpts of other trans-related articles, except sloppily using transsexual in place of transgender, or conflating it with some specific subset of trans people (e.g. those with dysphoria or who have medically/legally transitioned). This (not the article itself) is inaccurate and offensive. Following the guidance of various style guides[1][2][3], Wikipedia should probably not use transsexual to label any group of people except those who specifically identify with the term. Drop non-terminology content and keep
article about the term, and its use as a historical medical term and present-day identity label. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝
) 05:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
That actually isn't a bad ides. Historyday01 (talk) 13:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Transmasculine

i sometimes see yhe term transmasculine, dhoild yhat not be added somewhere? 92.40.193.56 (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

"transmasculine" is already defined in the article's "Terminology" section.--TempusTacet (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Misleading wording at the end of the first paragraph

The definition ends with this?wording "...the sex they were assigned at birth." While actually it should state something like "biological sex" or "chromosomal sex". The current phrasing can suggest that a. someone is assigning a sex to each new born and b. That being a transgender depends in some way on this (third party's) assignment. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Not done. Per
assigned sex at birth, as this is the phraseology preferred by reliable sources, including the three we cite. The AP Stylebook recommends using assigned over biological sex, birth gender, was identified at birth as, born a girl and the like. "Biological sex" is an empty and redundant term (sex is necessarily biological); see intersex to learn more about why "chromosomal sex" would be similarly problematic. Cheers, –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝
) 18:53, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
So why not just "sex"? If anything it would stress the difference between gender and sex. For someone who is not an expert on this topic, using the recommended phrasing that includes the a verb can suggest that the action of assigning the sex includes choosing which one it should be (and not just documenting an observation). 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 21:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
@2A00, there are a number of reasons. RoxySaunders gave you just the most important one: The preponderance of sources use some version of 'sex assigned at birth', so that is the wording the we use in Wikivoice. Those authorities probably choose the phrase because more of them can agree upon it than anything else. Some consider 'sex' to be observable and changeable (hence the obsolete term, sex reassignment surgery). Others believe it is innate and 'medical' (e.g., endocrinological) and relatively permanent. What everyone agrees is that -- right or wrong, for good or evil -- someone makes a decision about the sex of the person at the time the baby is born in nearly all current cultures. Using 'sex assigned at birth' gives everyone a specific and agreed starting point (literally and figuratively) for conversations about sex and gender, whereas 'sex' simply invites yet another flaming row in the faculty lounge before the discussion even starts. Hope that helps. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Ambiguity, for one. Sex can refer to a variety of traits, some of which aren't strictly binary or static. For various legal, medical, and practical purposes, a transgender or intersex person's 'sex' (in cases were it is insisted that we have a single binary sex) may be different from the one we were assigned at birth. Also some lay English speakers (and thus, some sources) are used to using sex and gender (identity) interchangeably, which certainly will not help them if they are encountering this subject for the first time.
Readers who are turned around or offended by the phrase sex they were assigned at birth can follow the link through to
notes or more prose, rather than futzing with the terminology that one would expect to find in other references on the same subject. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝
) 01:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems like this is a perennial question here; the Talk page (and regular editors here) might benefit from creation of a FAQ that we can link or point to. Mathglot (talk) 08:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

A FAQ proposal came up on another Talk that I'm on. I volunteered to help there and will do so here as well. However, I've never worked with FAQs in WP so could use some guidance. Specifically, how do we determine the questions and negotiate the answers? Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
This is worth its own section; see below. Mathglot (talk) 20:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
certainly. Even after reading the replies I am still cunfused. On one hand "sex is always biological" but on the other hand "Sex can refer to a variety of traits, some of which aren't strictly binary or static.".
I think the important point is that the moment in time when assigning the sex of a newborn is an agreed starting point. In other words the term "sex assignment at birth" meaning that point in time rather the action of sex assignment. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
As RoxySaunders suggested, you might want to read sex assignment and if that article does not answer all your questions, please state them on the talk page there so that the article can be improved.--TempusTacet (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Apologies if my phrasing was unclear. Sex is necessarily biological, in that all
charged and ambiguous in ways that AGAB isn't, and should not be used here. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝
) 06:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
you're right. Some may use "genetic sex" but usually one doesn't really check that.
Looking at the sources already supplied in this article I see that the American Psychological Association do use the term "sex assigned at birth".
But in: [4]https://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/transgender.htm the definition is "Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity or expression (masculine, feminine, other) is different from their sex (male, female) at birth."
[5]https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf "Trans is a general term for people whose gender is different from the gender assigned to them at birth." Which is a bit better than the current definition.
[6]https://www.britannica.com/topic/transgender "transgender, term self-applied by persons whose gender identity varies from that traditionally associated with their apparent biological sex at birth." Which seems to me the most accurate.
[7]https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/transgender-population-by-state "Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender or sense of personal identity does not match the sex they were born with. In other words, a transgender person may have been born as a male but identifies as a female or vice versa."
[8]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3780721 "Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity or expression does not conform to that typically associated with the sex they were born as or assigned to at birth."
All the above sources are from this wikipedia page andcall these definitions are more accurate and agreed basing on the sources they were published in. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Personally, I still think more sources use 'sex assigned at birth' or the (less-ideal) 'gender assigned at birth' than any of the others, but it would take a lot of research to make a definitive statement -- I was wrong to do so above as there are 279 sources cited and I've read only a fraction of them. And there are good cases for each of the phrases that you chose. I am a grammar Nazi by nature, so I definitely see your linguistic points.
There is an easy tiebreaker: Does the existing wording confuse or mislead the average reader? The average person from the UK or US comprehends written English at the level expected of a nine- to twelve-year-old. Can you honestly say 'sex assigned at birth' is harder for a pre-teen to understand than 'apparent biological sex at birth'? I just don't see it. I also think it's important to consider that you quoted six emmenantly respected sources and no two agreed on a phrase. That fact alone should warn us off the dangerous shoals of a debate that has been going on for decades in academia. This feels like a perfectly valid point that is also a needless distraction. Without a clear, unequivocal choice of one 'best' phrase amongst the preponderance of sources, I think the status quo should stay. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Starting to get off-topic for this page; see
WP:NOTFORUM
.
I am also a bit of a gramner-nazi myself, but not a native English speaker... I did ask native english speakers (UK) and they also understood "assigned" as an action.
My difficulty with "sex assigned at birth" is that it ties the definition to some beurocratic action, which seems very wrong to me (one of the sources here even stated that a transgender is a person who's gender differs from what is written in his birth certificate).
Returning back to your question: Can you honestly say 'sex assigned at birth' is harder for a pre-teen to understand than 'apparent biological sex at birth'? It is not about how hard it is to understand but that the first wording can be incorrectly understoid. In my opinion the best option is to just use the word "sex" as the sex is not apperent only in very rare conditions (CAIS, xxy etc.). 2.54.178.108 (talk) 10:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
That is actually the logic some scholars use for not just saying 'sex', and for including reference to the assignment that occurs at birth. A fallible human makes a decision based on what they perceive. In most cultures, people with ambiguous genitalia immediately after birth (tumtum in Hebrew) were, and often still are, assigned either male or female based on whatever seems 'most likely' to the human making the assignment. The child is then forced to live that gender role. Hence, someone chromosomally XY and endocrinologically male who is now living as a man could be transgender and seen as such by society: He was incorrectly assigned female at birth and raised as a girl due to anomalous genital formation, a fact only recognised around the time of puberty. This was rare but really not that unlikely before genetic testing. Last1in (talk) 15:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Following this example, would you call someone with xy chromosomes, who was erroneously assigned as female, a transgender if he transitioned to male at some point?
What if he was assigned "male" correctly but his parents raised him as a girl and later on she transitioned into a male, so in this case after transitioning the sex assigned at birth fits the gender of this person and he is no longer a transgender?
In the examples above, biology and transitiining occured at tha same time/order yet in the first examole the person begins his life as cisgender and later on becomes a transgender, while in the seconed exampme it's the other way around. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 06:23, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Chromosomes don't determine biological sex, there are cis women who have XY chromosomes but due to androgen insensitivity are female. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Also FYI, "a transgender" isn't grammatically correct, as transgender is an adjective. A Socialist Trans Girl 07:24, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
@2A00, you are getting into the very edges of the definition of TG {Note: I use TG as shorthand for the term, not the people}, and one on which
sources
disagree. The vast majority agree that 'sex assigned at birth' refers to a choice a human makes to label a newborn as belonging to a biological sex. It is an action and a choice, usually based entirely on observable, external genital formation.
If, later in life, that person expresses a gender different than what was chosen, that person generally falls into the definition of TG. For most sources, the discovery that the original choice was simply wrong (usually noted around puberty) still fits within TG if the person chooses to express the gender for their 'new' (actual) sex. Conversely, for many sources, if the person chooses to retain the gender role/expression in which they were raised, they remain cisgendered.
A Socialist Trans Girl's example above could be an example of that, depending on whether a given source considers genetic or endocrinological factors (or one of a variety of other options or combinations) as ‘The’ marker of biological sex. Please note that I said ‘depending’ and that this is the ragged edge of the TG definition. The article for sex assignment has more info, you’ll want to read and consider individual sources cited there for something this specific and 'edgy'. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 17:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, the part about what happens when the original assignment was wrong is new to me.
Transgender is considered a noun in some sources but I understand it is considered offensive nowadays (I was not aware of that). 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 18:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Just adding a source for "transgender" is also a noun.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgender 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 18:44, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
2 things, 1, please do not use Wiktionary as a source, and 2, it says dated and often offensive. A Socialist Trans Girl 01:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Just FYI: let's get this conversation back on track, which is to say, about how to improve supposed problems in the first paragraph of the lead. The discussion started out fine, but then started to diverge, roughly

WikiProjects might be willing to host it, if it fits their goals. Thanks, Mathglot (talk
) 00:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

false info in first paragraph

having a different gender expression doesn't make you trans. if a man is feminine, he isn't trans. and if a trans woman is masculine, she's still a woman. your gender identity determines whether or not your trans, not your gender expression. Kutgut (talk) 22:30, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a proposed change you want to meet to the article? The lead doesn’t currently say that having a different gender expression makes you trans, so I’m not sure what you’re saying here. I see no false information in the first paragraph; you’ll have to be more specific. Mathglot (talk) 23:17, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Actually, I think maybe it does, although I doubt that this is the intention. Currently it says "A transgender person (often abbreviated to trans person) is someone whose gender identity or gender expression does not correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth." I don't want to put words into the OP's mouth but I think they would like us to remove "or gender expression". If so, I think that this is a valid request. There is nothing in the article body to support it and it seems incorrect. I'm sure that gender non-conforming people often get mistaken as trans and hence suffer some of the same discrimination as people who are recognisably trans but they are not actually trans. DanielRigal (talk) 00:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
I agree as the existence of cis GNC people disproves said definition. A Socialist Trans Girl 09:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Agreed. Cis people can vary their gender expressions too. Funcrunch (talk) 00:19, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
This has been discussed before, probably longest at [9]. It seems that this language reflects what sources have to say on the matter. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
The new WPATH 8th edition standards for care, which was released early fall 2022 defines transgender as:
TRANSGENDER or trans are umbrella terms used to de- scribe people whose gender identities and/or gender ex- pressions are not what is typically expected for the sex to which they were assigned at birth. These words should always be used as adjectives (as in “trans people”) and never as nouns (as in “transgenders”) and never as verbs (as in “transgendered”).Source
Perhaps we could alter the wiki definition to better fit this more up to date language? 71.247.61.216 (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
@CaptainEek What reliable sources say that cis GNC people do not exist? A Socialist Trans Girl 09:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
@
WP:ANDOR, preferring "or both", so I've added an "or both". CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓
17:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
@
WP:IAR and remove it from the definition because doing so improves Wikipedia. A Socialist Trans Girl
02:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
  • I am sorry that I will sound strident, but I'm seeing this same sort of linguistic shenanigans across a huge swath of articles right now. This entire conversation is
    WP:OR
    and so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning. I use the first descriptor because there is not one single source cited that supports this change, much less a preponderance of reliable sources. As for 'so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning'...
In the English language, there are two disjoint and collectively exhaustive terms: You have/express/live a gender corresponding to your sex assigned at birth (cisgender), or you do not (transgender). Terms like cisgender and transgender are also called complementary antonyms. The 'cis' and 'trans' prefixes are a Latin complementary antonymic pair for the concept of "on this side" and "on that side". The natural usage of both English terms conforms to that Latin root. There is no, there literally can be no "on both sides at the same time".
Now to address the argument I see coming of "well, maybe not both; but how about neither?" Rejecting the binary shackles of male/female sex and gender is important. Rejecting the actual rules of logic and linguistics is not. There is no "it's not on any side at all" concept in a disjoint and collectively exhaustive pair. Cis and trans are not simple opposites or a contrasting pair of terms (like left : right, or up : down) that are mutually exclusive but not exhaustive. Something can be 'even with' or 'parallel to', and 'in front of' or 'behind'; thus neither left nor right, up nor down. By the very definition and nature of the terms in question here, however, a person cannot be neither cis nor trans. Like the terms odd and even for non-zero numbers, there isn't another option on the linguistic menu unless we're making [redacted] up. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in So what are you suggesting as the action item here? The status quo? Or? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 02:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Not precisely; there is a lot that needs improvement in both the lede and the article body. I 100% believe, however, that gender expression (or, more precisely, nonconformity in gender expression) is a vital part of the definition of transgender. I have been trying to compose a lede with better flow (and less source contradiction) for consideration on this Talk, but have not completed that. Pending a rewrite, I think the status quo is far, far stronger than any option that removes gender expression from the lese sentence. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
What do you mean gender expression non-conformity is a vital part in the definition? A cis femboy isn't trans, nor is a trans tomboy cis, we can still have "Transgender people are also all GNC, though not all GNC people are transgender." in the lede, but gender expression is not a part of the definition at all. A Socialist Trans Girl 03:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
Excellent info! Please post your
WP:OR and so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning." The article as written needs help, but the burden of proof here is with people trying to redact valid, sourced information (that's you). Cheers, Last1in (talk
) 12:11, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in Transgender: An umbrella term encompassing those whose gender identities differ from that typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth.
Cisgender: Used to describe an individual whose gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth.
WP:RS for your claim. The reason femboy and tomboy have no academic sociological definitions is because they are informal non-academic terms, but, Cisgender and Gender Non-Conforming ARE used in academia, and are the academic equivalent, and there is an explicit differentiation between being cis GNC being transgender.[2][3] (Note, we are talking about cisgender GNC people and GE GNC trans people. Tomboy and femboy are merely types of GNC, used as examples.) A Socialist Trans Girl
06:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
  • User:A Socialist Trans Girl, I am deeply confused. The sources you cite are literally the one I linked above, and they specifically say that what I wrote. I chose to link terms that you would obviously already recognise so that you could get to those sources. Did you read either of them? If so, and you still think that they refute my statement, I need to better understand before I can explain. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in I don’t understand what you’re saying here, can you explain? A Socialist Trans Girl 06:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
To be honest, I'm having trouble keeping separate this conversation and the one on TS (scrapping that article and lumping it in here). Again, we might be saying the same thing! The definitions used above and below (thank you, @King keudo), show that gender expression should be used in the lede where we introduce this subject. I 100% believe that GNC deserves a better article that the current dismb to Gender variance (or at least a major rework on that page), just as I think that TS requires a separate article at this point in the evolution of sex/gender terminology. But I think both of those articles are directly and inextricably within the umbrella-term, transgender, and both should be in the lede of this article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 11:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in did you put this on the wrong talk page? A Socialist Trans Girl 11:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
You got it in one! As I say above, I am getting very confused between the two pages. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 11:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
I want to point out, from your own offered source that you did leave out part of the definition of Cisgender and Transgender - which is important to the conversation of "gender expression" in the opening of this article. The definition for Cisgender and Transgender read, in full:
Cisgender: Used to describe an individual whose gender identity and gender expression align with the sex assigned at birth. (emphasis mine)
Transgender: An umbrella term encompassing those whose gender identities or gender roles differ from those typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. (emphasis mine)
Additionally, the definitions offered by the APA source that you provided also use definitions of Gender Identity and Gender Expression that rely on each other:
Gender expression: Clothing, physical appearance and other external presentations and behaviors that express aspects of gender identity or role. (emphasis mine)
Gender identity: An internal sense of being male, female or something else, which may or may not correspond to an individual's sex assigned at birth or sex characteristics. (emphasis mine)
I agree with your position; GNC isn't exclusive to transgender individuals. However, we are presenting this terminology the same way reliable sources do. To change it, we need reliable sources that reflect this change. A quick search online gives a couple of resources that also support the opening using the term gender expression. Sorry, I don't know how to put a ref list in a talk page yet, and for the wall of text. King keudo (talk) 11:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
@King keudo Yes, although the APA definitions still distinguish between transgender and GNC.
Additionally, there are reliable sources which I provided saying that being transgender and GNC are different things, and I have not seen any reliable sources stating they are the same as the current text implies, and additionally the APA definition states GI or gender roles differing from typical associated AGAB, and that definition I am fine with, AND is also at a source more reliable than the currently cited sources (APA terminology takes presidence over current) and the additional ones you listed* (*NCTE doesn’t actually include GE in their definition just GI), so RS supports not having GE in the definition. FYI you just do it the same way as in an article, and I’ve already added a reflist at the bottom of this talkpage section. A Socialist Trans Girl 06:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
I would like to add one thing to your statement, @King keudo. "To change it, we need a preponderance of reliable sources [to] reflect this change." Just because a couple of academics have embraced this does not make it a consensus. I can find (and actually have) sources from peer-reviewed journals that posit the most preposterous things. It's part of the scientific journey for academics to "prove" a point, only to have it rejected or revised by the broader community. It's why we have to trail sources, not lead them. The preponderance of sources already in the article that address the split in terms acknowledge that they are overlapping but distinct concepts at this time. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
i agree 👍 88.109.191.212 (talk) 12:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Last1in @King keudo @CaptainEek Could it be said we have consensus? The APA terminology definition is more reliable than the current cited sources, and the implication that there are no cisgender GNC people also has reliable sources disproving it. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@A Socialist Trans Girl Consensus for which wording? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
@CaptainEek "... whose gender identity or gender roles differ from those typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth.", The APA terminology definition. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
I admittedly don't love the current version, but my issue with the APA is that differing gender roles doesn't feel super accurate either. A stay at home father is breaking the gender roles of his society, but it could hardly be said that makes him trans. Perhaps the lesson of the APA and WPATH is that both agree on gender identity, but they also point out that there is clearly something else going on, and on that point they don't agree. So the solution could just be to limit the definition to gender identity? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@CaptainEek Sure, shall we implement it now? A Socialist Trans Girl

Works for me :) CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 05:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Nice, I've gone ahead and implemented the changes! (◕ᴗ◕✿) A Socialist Trans Girl 05:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
I'm a bit late to the ping, apologies; I'm not against this change, thank you. King keudo (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
THAT is what I call perfect consensus building! Great edit, and thank you, A Socialist Trans Girl. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in thanks! (=^ ◡ ^=) A Socialist Trans Girl 03:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

references

  1. ^ "A glossary: Defining transgender terms". American Psychological Association. 49 (8): 32. September 2018.
  2. ^ Broussard, Kristin A.; Warner, Ruth H. (21 August 2018). "Gender Nonconformity Is Perceived Differently for Cisgender and Transgender Targets". Sex Roles.
  3. ^ Qiguo, Lian; Ruili, Li; Zhihao, Liu; Xiaona, Li; Qiru, Su; Dongpeng, Zheng (5 April 2022). "Associations of nonconforming gender expression and gender identity with bullying victimization: an analysis of the 2017 youth risk behavior survey". BMC Public Health. 22: 650.

Two-Spirit

@Willbb234 The article sourced is pretty easy to read. The very first paragraph does, in fact, say:

Activist Albert McLeod developed the term in 1990 to broadly reference Indigenous peoples in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) community. Two-spirit is used by some Indigenous peoples to describe their gender, sexual and spiritual identity.

That's pretty straightforward, and supports the sentence "Some two-spirit people may also identify as transgender." Could you explain why you think it doesn't? King keudo (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

It's complicated. Some do feel that way. Others feel another. From Two-spirit:

For early adopters, the term "Two Spirit" was a deliberate act to differentiate and distance themselves from non-Native gays and lesbians,[1] as well as from non-Native terminology such as "gay", "lesbian", and "transgender",[2]"

Right now we're at a point where the RS sources document a variety of viewpoints. As for OR... um, it varies. My experience is that it was developed to be something to say to non-Natives as an English-language umbrella term instead of the traditional terms for ceremonial roles, and to replace offensive anthro terms. The ceremonial roles were based on gender-nonconformity, and existed before modern ideas of transgender. Some Elders say 2S is now a term for modern LGBT Natives, others say it's only for those who've been chosen from birth for a ceremonial role. We don't have great sources for this stuff because it's not generally written about. -
☼
21:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Complicated is right, and you clearly are more knowledgeable about the subject than I, so I defer to you overall. That being said, the edit in question is to remove both a statement and a source, simply with the claim that the statement is not supported by the source. I am not arguing that it merits singular inclusion in the lead over the other information included in the Native American and First Nations section, but the source provided does indicate that some indigenous people who are two-spirit may also identify as trangender. From the article you linked, Two-Spirit;
While initially focused on ceremonial and social roles within Indigenous community, as a pan-Indian, English-language umbrella term, for some it has come to have similar use as the terms "queer" (modern, reclaimed usage) or "LGBTQ" in encompassing lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Native peoples in North America.
My point is only that the statement is supported by the source being used. The statement and source should not have been removed, and should be restored. King keudo (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
My 2p: The statement should never have been removed. The source is clear, and it corresponds to the source. There is neither
WP:SYNTH. IMO, to reinterpret the source in a way that supports removal would in itself constitute both OR and SYNTH. Cheers, Last1in (talk
) 23:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
As long as it is qualified that only "some" use the term, it is technically correct to say that some individuals use both terms for themselves. -
☼
00:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
I don't understand how one can come to the conclusion that the statement "Two-spirit is used by some Indigenous peoples to describe their gender, sexual and spiritual identity" is the same as saying "Some two-spirit people may also identify as transgender". The word 'transgender' isn't even mentioned in the first sentence. Willbb234 09:46, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
Also, the source isn't exactly "clear". In fact, it's quite the opposite. The statement "Two-spirit is used by some Indigenous peoples to describe their gender, sexual and spiritual identity" is vague in the sense that we don't have any figures and the source mentions "indigenous peoples" which seems like a bit of a generalisation. The source expands on this, but offers various definitions for different peoples: Two-spirit commonly referred to gender identity, dress and traditional roles. The Cree terms napêw iskwêwisêhot and iskwêw ka napêwayat respectively reference men who dress like women and women who dress like men. The Siksika (Blackfoot) term aakíí’skassi described men who performed roles typically associated with women, such as basket weaving and pottery-making. Similarly, the Ktunaxa (Kootenay) term titqattek described females who took on roles traditionally characterized as masculine, including healing, hunting and warfare. One of the most well-known two-spirit people who identified as female was We’wha (1846–96) of New Mexico. She was referred to as lhaman or “mixed gender” in the Zuni language. In various Indigenous cultures, temperament, work roles, dress and lifestyle distinguished two-spirited individuals from men and women. I find it hard to believe that this is all "clear". Willbb234 09:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
I would not use the Canadian Encyclopedia as a source for
☼
18:03, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Jacobs, Thomas & Lang (1997), pp. 2–3, 221
  2. Rewire
    . Retrieved Oct 17, 2016. Non-Native anthropologist Will Roscoe gets much of the public credit for coining the term two spirit. However, according to Kristopher Kohl Miner of the Ho-Chunk Nation, Native people such as anthropologist Dr. Wesley Thomas of the Dine or Navajo tribe also contributed to its creation. (Thomas is a professor in the School of Dine and Law Studies.)

SYNTH
regarding § Ancient cultures

@

WP:SYNTH. If no RS can be provided to call any of these people/group trans—and I'm skeptical that they can, given that "transgender" is a label dating to the 1960s—the section should be removed. Some of the content would probably be suitable at gender variance, which is more a descriptive term than a label. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed
] (she|they|xe) 23:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I was under the impression that
WP:FRINGE view. That's the impression I got in college from historians. Scorpions1325 (talk
) 00:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Looking at the section as a whole, the weirdest thing is that is under "Population figures and prevalence". I think it belongs in the history section, merged in with what we already have there. Merely moving it would recontextualise the content as we would then be presenting these facts as historic precedents for some of the elements which would later come to be called transgender rather than applying the label transgender to them. That said, if any parts which are not well enough referenced to justify keeping at all, and no better references can be found, then by all means let's remove those. I don't think that it is right to call including Elagabalus fringe. We certainly shouldn't present it as a universally accepted view either but saying "Some historians consider" seems OK to me. --DanielRigal (talk) 00:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
@DanielRigal: Are there some good citations we can use of historians who believe that? The cited source does not actually use the term. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 00:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
This has already been discussed more thoroughly at the Elagabalus talk page. I would invite a user to add more sources to support claims about what historians think about him, of course correctly attributing this view to only "some" historians as Daniel has said. The section should avoid being an indiscriminate list of historical figures which some historians at various times have considered to have been transgender. It certainly doesn't seem like the current text has any kind of flow to it.
As for the sentence Also, in Fa'asamoa traditions, the Samoan culture allows a specific role for male to female transgender individuals as Fa'afafine. a source needs to be added for this to remain in the article. Willbb234 00:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Discussion of third-gender groups like the Fa'afafine doesn't belong in a history section regardless. (Hijra are discussed in § Law, not sure the best way here.) This section is one of several (see my recent removals) that reads more like someone's pet project, perhaps for college credit, that got tacked on deep in the article by someone who didn't bother to read what's already there. They all wind up with this strange grab-bag of facts. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 00:38, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Somewhat unrelated, but in response to Tamzin's request at ANI, I reorganised the previously-chaotic section layout; I hope people approve. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
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